A Question for Calvinists

frumanchu · Apr 17, 2003

Yesterday at 08:57 PM Ragman said this in Post #20

Woody:

I guess that's my point, I asked the question where does a Calvinist's assurance come from and the answers were from the new birth experience and that because someone was regenerated and they now had a desire to obey God.  That sounds introspective and subjective.

The rub is that on one hand a Calvinist says that the Lord has done everything to secure their salvation, but in order for someone to "know" if their salvation has been secured they are required to have faith in the validity and genuiness of their subjective experience rather than in the totality of the person and work of Christ.

I agree with your assessment of most non-Calvinists.  But as stated above I have the same issue with telling someone that their assurance comes from their introspective examination of their own subjective experience.

I understand that how we know something may be subjective, but our faith should be well placed soley and completely in the person and work of Christ and not in the genuineness of our subjective experience.

Ragman, our salvation is secured in Christ's atoning sacrifice. Our faith is in that deliverance and reconciliation. What we've been discussing here is how we can know that our faith is in the right place. We are told that, if our faith is in the right place, certain things will be evident as a result. Namely, the fruits of the Spirit...and the internal witness of our ongoing sanctification. The renewing of our mind. While many of these things can be manifest externally, the true indication is our inward witness. That is why none of us can say definitively that another person is not saved based simply on observation.

Our personal assurance of salvation (to satisfy any doubt or question we might have) is the presence and witness of the Holy Spirit in us. The actual assurance of our salvation (to satisfy the righteous and holy demands of God's justice) is the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Faith is the tie that binds the two.

Does that help?

Reformationist · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 06:12 AM frumanchu said this in Post #21

Our personal assurance of salvation (to satisfy any doubt or question we might have) is the presence and witness of the Holy Spirit in us. The actual assurance of our salvation (to satisfy the righteous and holy demands of God's justice) is the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Faith is the tie that binds the two.

Very nice.

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

15th April 2003 at 09:03 AM CCWoody said this in Post #12

P.S. Am I going to have to spank my fellow Reformed for not letting me know about a thread like this?

(I could say the same thing to you my brother.)

While the answers my brethren have offered have been good, I believe that there is another dimension that we need to discuss. Woody alluded to it, but I will come right out and say it. What if I am wrong, and I am not one of he elect? What if I am bound for hell?

Now, I am not about to concede that I am lost, since the pilgimage of the past 30+ years has shown me the depths of God's love and providence. Yet, what if I am sadly deluded, and all of it has been a sham?

If I stand before God one day and He says to me "Depart from Me, I never knew you!", I have already concluded in my heart the nature of my response. It will be: " Lord God Almighty, you have created me for Your pleasure. If You will be most glorified in my damnation, then I cannot argue with You. Your will be done. Blessed be the Name of the Lord."

It is my role to please Him. If He is pleased with my damnation, then who am I to argue with Him? His will be done.

Job_38 · Apr 17, 2003

I've never thought of that Jerry.

Personally, I have no fear of going to Hell because of...well...arrogance. I use answers that I know are the 'right' answers, yet how many of us truly believe in that? The outcome of believing in God's total command over our salvtion puts us in complete humility, because there is no room for any pride.

However, we then can beging to pride ourselves with being the elect, but thats funny cause the same message is that we did nothing to attain that.

Sorry for spilling.

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Job38,

To parapharase John Piper, we are most happy when God is most glorified. We should always remember that our joy has its root in Him, and that our function is to glorify Him. Too many Christians think that the end result is their joy, but it isn't. It is always about God, and never about us.

Thus, whatever pleases God should please me.

Ragman · Apr 18, 2003

Yesterday at 08:12 AM frumanchu said this in Post #21

Ragman, our salvation is secured in Christ's atoning sacrifice. Our faith is in that deliverance and reconciliation. What we've been discussing here is how we can know that our faith is in the right place. We are told that, if our faith is in the right place, certain things will be evident as a result. Namely, the fruits of the Spirit...and the internal witness of our ongoing sanctification. The renewing of our mind. While many of these things can be manifest externally, the true indication is our inward witness. That is why none of us can say definitively that another person is not saved based simply on observation.

Our personal assurance of salvation (to satisfy any doubt or question we might have) is the presence and witness of the Holy Spirit in us. The actual assurance of our salvation (to satisfy the righteous and holy demands of God's justice) is the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Faith is the tie that binds the two.

Does that help?

Fru:

I agree that our faith is in Christ and His atoning work, but a Calvinist believes that Christ's person and work are not inclusive for every human being.  Therefore their faith, as stated earlier, is directed inward at their subjective experience of regeneration or their desire to obey God, to determine if Christ "loves" them;or if Christ lived and died for them.  They cannot place their faith solely in Christ's atoning sacrifice, because they don't know if that sacrifice is made for them. 

Our faith should be solely placed in Christ, not in ourselves, not in the genuiness of our experiences or desires, but in Christ.  The Spirit bears witness with our spirit or confirms that our faith is rightly placed; that we are children of God.  But our faith, the object of our faith must be Christ alone, not in the geniuness of our faith, not in the quality of our "salvation" experience, not in the sincerity of our desire to please or obey God, not in anything else other than the person of Jesus Christ.  How can a Calvinist have this kind of faith when they do not know if Christ lived and died for them?

 

Ragman · Apr 18, 2003

Yesterday at 11:58 AM Jerry_M said this in Post #23

(I could say the same thing to you my brother.)

While the answers my brethren have offered have been good, I believe that there is another dimension that we need to discuss. Woody alluded to it, but I will come right out and say it. What if I am wrong, and I am not one of he elect? What if I am bound for hell?

Now, I am not about to concede that I am lost, since the pilgimage of the past 30+ years has shown me the depths of God's love and providence. Yet, what if I am sadly deluded, and all of it has been a sham?

If I stand before God one day and He says to me "Depart from Me, I never knew you!", I have already concluded in my heart the nature of my response. It will be: " Lord God Almighty, you have created me for Your pleasure. If You will be most glorified in my damnation, then I cannot argue with You. Your will be done. Blessed be the Name of the Lord."

It is my role to please Him. If He is pleased with my damnation, then who am I to argue with Him? His will be done.

Jerry:

I have to ask you then the same question I have asked Woody, if you were/are a father; would you, could you father children for the specific purpose of having them tortured forever with no hope for the end result to be "Wow Jerry, glory to Jerry, what marvelous justice!"???

If not, are you better than God?  If so, that is sick!

Yet, that is exactly the same quality that you are attributing to the Father.

Could you do that Jerry?  Which one or two or three of your children would you pick?

Jerry_M · Apr 18, 2003

Today at 02:20 AM Ragman said this in Post #27

Yet, that is exactly the same quality that you are attributing to the Father.

Your analogy breaks down quite quickly. I am assured that none of the Father's children perish, that He will preserve all of them complete. Yet, there are those who are His created beings who will perish.

Whose beliefs lead to having a "sick" God, mine or yours? Well let's think about it for a moment: What if I am incorrect, and God really intends to offer salvation to all men everywhere without exception. If so, then why isn't He doing a better job of it? Why does He cause some of His "children" to live and die in places and times where they never once hear the name of Jesus? Why do some of His "children" live in America where there is a church on every corner, while others live in lands where there is no Bible in their tongue?

You are the one who believes that every person is a "child" of the heavenly Father, and that He owes them an obligation as a loving Father to provide for them. If you are correct, then God is doing a miserable job of it since millions perish in sin.

I, on the other hand, believe that God saves each and every one of His children, everyone that He has laid His eye upon for their good. He never fails in saving them complete. All men are His creation, but only those that he has adopted into the family of faith are His children.

Jesus understood this: They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abrahams children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. - John 8:39-45

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand. - John 10:26-29

Once again, you demonstrate that non-Calvinists haven't really thought about these things, and certainly haven't examined carefuly the Scriptural record of God's operations.

frumanchu · Apr 18, 2003

Today at 04:14 AM Ragman said this in Post #26
I agree that our faith is in Christ and His atoning work, but a Calvinist believes that Christ's person and work are not inclusive for every human being.  Therefore their faith, as stated earlier, is directed inward at their subjective experience of regeneration or their desire to obey God, to determine if Christ "loves" them;or if Christ lived and died for them.  They cannot place their faith solely in Christ's atoning sacrifice, because they don't know if that sacrifice is made for them.  Our faith should be solely placed in Christ, not in ourselves, not in the genuiness of our experiences or desires, but in Christ.  The Spirit bears witness with our spirit or confirms that our faith is rightly placed; that we are children of God.  But our faith, the object of our faith must be Christ alone, not in the geniuness of our faith, not in the quality of our "salvation" experience, not in the sincerity of our desire to please or obey God, not in anything else other than the person of Jesus Christ.  How can a Calvinist have this kind of faith when they do not know if Christ lived and died for them?

Absolutely, Christ alone must be the object of our faith. I think you're misunderstanding the context in which I'm speaking. What I said is in regards to someone who questions whether they are saved. Someone who questions if their faith in Christ is genuine or if they're just confessing with their mouth but not believing with their heart. I'm sure every person who is saved goes through periods where they despair and question their own salvation, especially in times of trial. My point was that one can look to the subjective evidence as reassurance of their salvation. Salvation itself does not in any way rely on whether or not someone "feels saved" all the time. There are people who believed they are saved who are not, and there are people who may not believe they are saved who are insofar as they question their own sincerity or live under the fear and binding of legalism in their church. It's to the latter that I would direct my comments.

As far as the question of limited atonement, consider the scripture that so many post as evidence against it...whosoever will shall be saved. It's a simple "if/then" statement. If you will, then you shall. All who believe will be saved. The focus we have should be on believing, not on election because it's faith that saves, not election. Your objection implies someone worrying that they won't be saved despite their belief because they weren't elected. That is an impossibility regardless of whether you believe in the Arminian version of election or the Calvinist version. The Father will NEVER turn away one who has put their faith in Him.

Ragman · Apr 20, 2003

18th April 2003 at 08:01 AM Jerry_M said this in Post #28

Your analogy breaks down quite quickly. I am assured that none of the Father's children perish, that He will preserve all of them complete. Yet, there are those who are His created beings who will perish.

Whose beliefs lead to having a "sick" God, mine or yours? Well let's think about it for a moment: What if I am incorrect, and God really intends to offer salvation to all men everywhere without exception. If so, then why isn't He doing a better job of it? Why does He cause some of His "children" to live and die in places and times where they never once hear the name of Jesus? Why do some of His "children" live in America where there is a church on every corner, while others live in lands where there is no Bible in their tongue?

You are the one who believes that every person is a "child" of the heavenly Father, and that He owes them an obligation as a loving Father to provide for them. If you are correct, then God is doing a miserable job of it since millions perish in sin.

I, on the other hand, believe that God saves each and every one of His children, everyone that He has laid His eye upon for their good. He never fails in saving them complete. All men are His creation, but only those that he has adopted into the family of faith are His children.

Jesus understood this: They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abrahams children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. - John 8:39-45

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand. - John 10:26-29

Once again, you demonstrate that non-Calvinists haven't really thought about these things, and certainly haven't examined carefuly the Scriptural record of God's operations.

So, God likes Americans because we have churches on every corner and God hates primitive nations where they have no churches and Bibles??? 

Whose belief is sick?

1. God loves every person, Christ has reconciled every person, The Spirit is working and revealing Christ to every person.

2. God only loves a few and hates the rest.  The vast majority of humanity was created for eternal, unspeakable torment while the "few" watch from heaven saying, "Glory to God for your wonderful justice."

Jerry, you think God is failing miserably because you, according to your analogy, listen not to the heart of your Father.  You see a native in Africa who has never heard the name of Jesus and you think, they are dying in sin, were destined forever to die in sin and are heading for hell.  You do not believe that Jesus is the "Light of the World".  You do not believe that Jesus is the True Light that lights "every man" who comes into the world.  Actually, you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God, for by virtue of His divinity He is the One by whom and in whom all things came into being and are being held together.  You cannot say to everyone you meet, "God loves you, Christ died for you".  You cannot quote to them John 3:16 without explaining that "the world" may not include them.

Do you actually believe that Jesus is making an "ontological" statement when He says to the Pharisees, "you are of your father the devil"?

As for God "owing" or having an "obligation" to us.  Absolutely not!  that is not grace.  God acts in accordance with His nature which is understood in His being as Father, Son and Spirit, revealed in the person and face of Jesus Christ. 

Do you suggest that Calvinists are the only people who have "thought through" these things? 

Ragman · Apr 20, 2003

18th April 2003 at 08:18 AM frumanchu said this in Post #29

Absolutely, Christ alone must be the object of our faith. I think you're misunderstanding the context in which I'm speaking. What I said is in regards to someone who questions whether they are saved. Someone who questions if their faith in Christ is genuine or if they're just confessing with their mouth but not believing with their heart. I'm sure every person who is saved goes through periods where they despair and question their own salvation, especially in times of trial. My point was that one can look to the subjective evidence as reassurance of their salvation. Salvation itself does not in any way rely on whether or not someone "feels saved" all the time. There are people who believed they are saved who are not, and there are people who may not believe they are saved who are insofar as they question their own sincerity or live under the fear and binding of legalism in their church. It's to the latter that I would direct my comments.

As far as the question of limited atonement, consider the scripture that so many post as evidence against it...whosoever will shall be saved. It's a simple "if/then" statement. If you will, then you shall. All who believe will be saved. The focus we have should be on believing, not on election because it's faith that saves, not election. Your objection implies someone worrying that they won't be saved despite their belief because they weren't elected. That is an impossibility regardless of whether you believe in the Arminian version of election or the Calvinist version. The Father will NEVER turn away one who has put their faith in Him.

I agree that the Father will NEVER turn away one who has put their faith in Him.  Our focus should be on Jesus Christ and His relationship with His Father in the Spirit.  And subsequently their desire to include us in their relationship by adoption in Jesus Christ.

However, if limited atonement is part of our theology we are "forced" to look inward to determine if there are "evidences of election" in our lives to determine if God loves us or if Christ died for us.  LA diverts our attention away from Christ and onto ourselves.

Jerry_M · Apr 20, 2003

Today at 06:36 AM Ragman said this in Post #30

So, God likes Americans because we have churches on every corner and God hates primitive nations where they have no churches and Bibles??? 

No, it could very well be that having a church on every corner may be used in judgment against us. To whom much is given, much is expected.

Whose belief is sick?

1. God loves every person, Christ has reconciled every person, The Spirit is working and revealing Christ to every person.

2. God only loves a few and hates the rest.  The vast majority of humanity was created for eternal, unspeakable torment while the "few" watch from heaven saying, "Glory to God for your wonderful justice."

Click to expand...

What proof do you have that "The Spirit is working and revealing Christ to every person"? Don't you concede that millions have died without ever hearing the Gospel, or do you believe that God has a "Plan B"?

Also, your characterization of our position, as stated by your #2, shows that you are not willing to give us the charity that a conversation of this nature entails.

Jerry, you think God is failing miserably because you, according to your analogy, listen not to the heart of your Father.  You see a native in Africa who has never heard the name of Jesus and you think, they are dying in sin, were destined forever to die in sin and are heading for hell.  You do not believe that Jesus is the "Light of the World".  You do not believe that Jesus is the True Light that lights "every man" who comes into the world.  Actually, you do not believe that Jesus Christ is God, for by virtue of His divinity He is the One by whom and in whom all things came into being and are being held together.  You cannot say to everyone you meet, "God loves you, Christ died for you".  You cannot quote to them John 3:16 without explaining that "the world" may not include them.

Click to expand...

It is not I who believes that "God is failing miserably". As I have stated previously, He saves all of His children. He loses not one of them.

Once again, your characterization that we "do not believe that
Jesus Christ is God" is laughable, and a sign that you are not engaging in this discussion in the right spirit.

Do you actually believe that Jesus is making an "ontological" statement when He says to the Pharisees, "you are of your father the devil"?

Click to expand...

In a word, yes.

As for God "owing" or having an "obligation" to us.  Absolutely not!  that is not grace.  God acts in accordance with His nature which is understood in His being as Father, Son and Spirit, revealed in the person and face of Jesus Christ. 

Click to expand...

What is grace to you? The possiblility of salvation, or the very act itself. You sound as if God's grace is little more than the offer of salvation, when we Calvinists know that it is the entire mechanism and operation whereby God saves completely all those whoare His.

Do you suggest that Calvinists are the only people who have "thought through" these things? 

Click to expand...

I don't "suggest" it, I came right out and said it. You don't seem to give much credence to the words of Christ, not only in the passages I cited, but the Bible as a whole.

Additionally, you have demonstrated your distain for us, and our position, in your comments, and have disqualified yourself from further serious consideration as a result of the nature of your remarks.

bird · Apr 20, 2003

jerry,

is what ragman said true? can you really not say to the man on the street, "god loves you, christ died for you?" but if it is true - then what is your message to the man on the street?

bird

Ragman · Apr 20, 2003

Today at 07:20 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #32

No, it could very well be that having a church on every corner may be used in judgment against us. To whom much is given, much is expected.

What proof do you have that "The Spirit is working and revealing Christ to every person"? Don't you concede that millions have died without ever hearing the Gospel, or do you believe that God has a "Plan B"?

Also, your characterization of our position, as stated by your #2, shows that you are not willing to give us the charity that a conversation of this nature entails.

It is not I who believes that "God is failing miserably". As I have stated previously, He saves all of His children. He loses not one of them.

Once again, your characterization that we "do not believe that
Jesus Christ is God" is laughable, and a sign that you are not engaging in this discussion in the right spirit.

In a word, yes.

What is grace to you? The possiblility of salvation, or the very act itself. You sound as if God's grace is little more than the offer of salvation, when we Calvinists know that it is the entire mechanism and operation whereby God saves completely all those whoare His.

I don't "suggest" it, I came right out and said it. You don't seem to give much credence to the words of Christ, not only in the passages I cited, but the Bible as a whole.

Additionally, you have demonstrated your distain for us, and our position, in your comments, and have disqualified yourself from further serious consideration as a result of the nature of your remarks.

I assure you that my distain is not for you.  Although I believe that the doctrine of limited atonement has done and is doing serious harm to many.

Jerry, there is much that I do not know.  That should come as no surprise to you.  But when a Calvinist says that the only group of people that have "thought out" a position because they come to a different conclusion than you have, this is the essence of arrogance.  You can conclude that I haven't thought out my position.  You can conclude that a particular person has not thought out their position.  But when you suggest that everyone that disagrees with you has not thought out their position, then that is rather arrogant. 

If you feel my beliefs are laughable, ill-informed and grossly incorrect to the point that you are unwilling to discuss further, that is fine.  Suit yourself.

If you decide at some other time that you want to discuss, that would be fine too.

Ragman · Apr 20, 2003

Today at 07:20 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #32

What proof do you have that "The Spirit is working and revealing Christ to every person"? Don't you concede that millions have died without ever hearing the Gospel, or do you believe that God has a "Plan B"?

Also, your characterization of our position, as stated by your #2, shows that you are not willing to give us the charity that a conversation of this nature entails.

Once again, your characterization that we "do not believe that
Jesus Christ is God" is laughable, and a sign that you are not engaging in this discussion in the right spirit.

What is grace to you? The possiblility of salvation, or the very act itself. You sound as if God's grace is little more than the offer of salvation, when we Calvinists know that it is the entire mechanism and operation whereby God saves completely all those whoare His.

Proof:

1. Jesus is the light of the world; lighting every man that comes into the world.  I wouldn't think of saying that Jesus is doing this apart from the work of the Spirit.

2. The love that a mother has for her child no matter what religion, country or culture they live in, the generosity of one human being to another, the peaceful smile of a child-not to mention their laughter, the provision a father has for his family, the joy that occurs when a new child is born.  I could go on and on.  But we, mere humans are unable to generate such fruits on our own.  Things such as love, peace, joy, faithfulness, etc. are a result of the Spirit's inner working to make Christ known to us.  The true preaching of the gospel helps to give understanding to this constant, pervasive witness of the Spirit to the world.

God has no plan B.  There is Jesus Christ, and He is enough.

Laughable.....I don't think so.  Paul did not think it was laughable when he witnesses to the divinity of Christ by discussing Christ's activity in creation and the incarnation.  And then directly on the heels of this statement of Christ's divinity he says:

Col. 1:19 For it please the Father that in him should all fulness dwells. 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Paul ties the divinity of Christ with both creation and the reconciliation of the all things.  Now one can disagree with what that reconciliation means, but the fact that the Son of God, by whom all things came into being, and the one in whom all things are held together, becomes man-without ceasing to be this same God who holds all things together, affects all things that came into being through Him and are held together in Him.  To say otherwise, while confessing Christ's humanity with one's lips, is to deny His divinity in all practicality.

What is grace to me?  It is the life of God shared with us in the Son and by the Spirit. 

He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe.  Remember this is a faithful saying, worthy of all acceptance.  Command and teach these thngs.

Jerry, my response is due to your questions posed.  If you want to discuss them, that is fine.  If you don't, that is fine too.

 

CCWoody · Apr 21, 2003

17th April 2003 at 11:58 AM Jerry_M said this in Post #23

(I could say the same thing to you my brother.)

I don't think that I was aware at the time that you had found your way over to this forum. I have been thinking that an email method of notification would be good to let us all know of threads we start or things which are of a particular interest to Calvinists.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

CCWoody · Apr 21, 2003

Yesterday at 08:37 PM bird said this in Post #33

jerry,

is what ragman said true? can you really not say to the man on the street, "god loves you, christ died for you?" but if it is true - then what is your message to the man on the street?

bird

The GOSPEL! We don't preach a lie, we preach the gospel.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Jerry_M · Apr 21, 2003

Yesterday at 07:37 PM bird said this in Post #33

jerry,

is what ragman said true? can you really not say to the man on the street, "god loves you, christ died for you?" but if it is true - then what is your message to the man on the street?

bird

My message to the "man on the street"?

1. You are a sinner, and deserve death and hell.
2. You cannot save yourself
3. Jesus Christ is God's only provision for sin.
4. You must repent of your sin, and embrace Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Is there any other Gospel? All those who repent and believe in Christ will be saved, All.

settergren · Apr 22, 2003

 Ragman, you said Christ is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe. Let's take a look at this verse and see what it means first before we use it to back up our position...

1Ti.4:10For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. Commentary by Gill:

Who is the Saviour of all men; in a providential way, giving them being and breath, upholding them in their beings, preserving their lives, and indulging them with the blessings and mercies of life; for that he is the Saviour of all men, with a spiritual and everlasting salvation, is not true in fact.

Specially of those that believe; whom though he saves with an eternal salvation; yet not of this, but of a temporal salvation, are the words to be understood: or as there is a general providence, which attends all mankind, there is a special one which relates to the elect of God; these are regarded in Providence, and are particularly saved and preserved before conversion, in order to be called; and after conversion, after they are brought to believe in Christ, they are preserved from many enemies, and are delivered out of many afflictions and temptations; and are the peculiar care and darlings of providence, being to God as the apple of his eye: and there is a great deal of reason to believe this, for if he is the Saviour of all men, then much more of them who are of more worth, value, and esteem with him, than all the world beside; and if they are saved by him with the greater salvation, then much more with the less; and if he the common Saviour of all men, and especially of saints, whom he saves both ways, then there is great reason to trust in him for the fulfilment of the promises of life, temporal and eternal, made to godliness, and godly persons.

Ragman · Apr 22, 2003

Yesterday at 09:56 PM CCWoody said this in Post #37

The GOSPEL! We don't preach a lie, we preach the gospel.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Woody:

If you call telling people that the majority of mankind was created for the sole purpose of going to hell in order to show forth God's glory the gospel, it is a wonder it was ever considered "good news".

A Question for Calvinists

God's justice does not demand second chances

Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

<font color="darkblue"><i><b>A filthy, rotten, sin

<font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

<font color="darkblue"><i><b>A filthy, rotten, sin

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Active Member

<font color="darkblue"><i><b>A filthy, rotten, sin

God's justice does not demand second chances

Active Member

Active Member

<font color="darkblue"><i><b>A filthy, rotten, sin

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Voted best Semper Reformada signature ~ 2007

Voted best Semper Reformada signature ~ 2007

<font color="darkblue"><i><b>A filthy, rotten, sin

In Christ Alone

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