Mystery Bablyon?

Hi Paul

i think we are debating over trifles.

Just because one says they are Christian does not mean they have the oil in their lamps.

In MAtt 25 the 10 major Christian faiths are portrayed as Virgins

1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2: And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

These are the Christian Churches at the end of the Age. The oil in the lamps is the true Word of God.

Matt:25:3: They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

But the wise have the word of God

Matt 25:4: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mt:25:12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Now compare with Matt 7:

Matt 7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So as we can see five of the major Christian faiths will not have the Truth of the Oil(word) and they will follow the AC.

Just The Facts said:

23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So as we can see five of the major Christian faiths will not have the Truth of the Oil(word) and they will follow the AC.

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Yes but, the bible clearly states that only those NOT written in the book of life will worship the beast... Just because one is a christian, does not mean your name is written IN the book of life.

RE: Jerusalem or Iraq as Mystery Babylon

For those who think Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon - consider that such a theory would negate other scripture. For Mystery Babylon is destroyed and will never be inhabited.
It will be destroyed twice. First by fire. Numerous passages in Revelation 17:16 then
18:8-9, 18. Also Isaiah 13:19-20 referencing Sodom & Gomorrah for comparison, plus Jeremiah 50:32 "her cities" - not just a single city - again eliminates Jerusalem alone but rather then all of Israel if we follow the whole arguement -- in fact the whole land is ablaze including even swamps and marshes and rivers - see also Jeremiah 51:36.
Note that the passages also indicate that no one will EVER live there again, in that land - not just the city - also again eliminates the concept of Jerusalem because of course we have Christ reigning in the Millenial kingdom from Jerusalem and all of Israel and remember, the Millennial Kingdom stretches through Iraq to the Euphrates River so Iraq also cannot be Mystery Babylon.

Now there is also the second aspect of the judgment - a 2nd judgment of water.
Jeremiah 51:42 - The sea comes up over her by a multitude of waves. Verse 55 "her
waves roar" and verse 64 "thus shall Babylon sink". Revelation 16:17-21 describes
Babylon's second judgment will occur at the same time that all the mountains collapse and the islands disappear - and God will remember Babylon too. But Revelation 18:21
tells us how this happens: An angel takes a stone like a giant millstone and casts it
(greek term is ekballoh= 'to missile' something) into the sea, (beside Babylon). Also, remember Rev 18:11-19 tells us that the city-proper is a seaport. Jerusalem is not a seaport.

Results:

Babylon uninhabited forever: See Revelation 18:22-23

In other words, the theories that Jerusalem or Iraq are Babylon would be contrary to the Messianic prophecies.

good4u,

RE: your question about the religious aspects?

You, (I think) and others or at least some have posted the Revelation 17:5 phrase about the woman being the Mother of harlots. Please note this is NOT correct.

The verse is as follows in the original Greek texts with all Capital letters known as
"uncials" which means that the usage conveys a Proper Name Title of a person:

a mystery. BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS...

Please realize that all who posted left out the word "the" which is a specific article.

She is THE mother of "THE" harlots. --

This term is more than a descriptive phrase. The term in capitals "THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS" is a proper name and a Proper Title. It had been around for centuries as the title for the chief goddess of Babylon - Ishtar (also known in ancient dialects as Inanna). Ishtar was the originator of sacred sexual prostitution. Salvation by way of sex. i.e. your sins were forgiven by works+faith by engaging in sexual activities in which your sins were washed away be becoming 'one with the goddess' who would take possession of the temple priestess or priest. That was one of her many doctrines.
She also held other titles including the Goddess of Liberty/Freedom. Also Goddess of Immigrants. Goddess of Love, Goddess of War, Goddess of Justice, Goddess of the planet Venus and came from the Sirius star system according to the Babylonians.
She was also called the Queen of Heaven. She was so admired by early Romans that
they called her by her doctrine regarding Freedom/Liberty as the goddess Libertas.
Later by the time of Caesar they adopted all of her other doctrines and called her
Venus. The Greeks called her Astarte. The Egyptians as Isis. The Assyrians and the Canaanites as Ashtoroth/Ashtoreth. Today, in America she is known as Lady Liberty
or goddess of Freedom (atop the US Capitol Building) or as goddess Libertas by Freemasons and as the Statue of Liberty, in which the sculptor, Bartholdi wrote in his
memoirs that his statue was his attempt to portray the goddess of Rome known as Libertas.

So, the religion of Revelation 17 is Freedom/Liberty embodied in Democracy for which America worships the concept as a religion, and to which America has tried to "evangelize the whole earth - or biblically stated -- for whom she made the kings of the earth drunk, as related to monarchism. That therein is the religion of Revelation 17.

Now, remember, the Woman and her "religious" views is not the religion of the Antichrist. Remember, the woman 'rides' the beast or controls him until God destroys her, so that the Antichrist comes to power after she is destroyed. See Rev 17:12-16
Note some claim the AC/Beast destroys the woman. How can this be? The passages
state that angels destroy the woman/babylon, for the woman IS the mega-city Babylon. The woman IS a city-state-nation or the ideals and embodiment of a nation and not an actual religion per-se or so it would seem. She certainly is not promoting
the religion of the Antichrist.

Best source of exhaustive analysis on this is from a 2-volume work on the subject
called "America, The Babylon." Does exhaustive text analysis from Greek and Hebrew plus heavy empirical proofs to support the texts.

FWIW

Hi

I am lost Paul................I thought you were saying that Christians do not follow the AC.

I was saying Just because you call yourself Christian does not mean you are saved so "Christians" are the ones who follow.

You can not use the verses about the mark to show it is not the Christian world that follows.

The Truth is everyone has the mark up to the point were they wash their robes white in the blood of the Lamb.

the World is a dirty place when you are out playing in the world you get spotted

Jms:1:27: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

yes it is a dirty place and you get all marked up.. Just make sure before you go to the Wedding feast of the lamb and his bride that you wash your robes white or the Door will be shut and Jesus will say

11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Symes said:

Can you define what a Christian is so we can see what you mean?

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Someone whose name is written in the book of life.

I am a Jerusalem = Babylon proponent. To refute your arguments:


> For those who think Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon - consider that such a theory would negate other scripture.

How about the entire book of Hosea? The whole book, Jerusalem is a harlot. And that's Old Testament--apostle John knew that.



> For Mystery Babylon is destroyed and will never be inhabited. It will be destroyed twice.

How many times has Jerusalem been destroyed already? Hint: 586bc, and 70ad.



> First by fire. Numerous passages in Revelation 17:16 then
18:8-9, 18. Also Isaiah 13:19-20 referencing Sodom & Gomorrah for comparison, plus Jeremiah 50:32 "her cities" - not just a single city - again eliminates Jerusalem alone but rather then all of Israel if we follow the whole arguement -- in fact the whole land is ablaze including even swamps and marshes and rivers - see also Jeremiah 51:36.

The scriptures you cite all reference the 586bc destruction and were already fulfilled. The overall theme of Jeremiah's book was none other than the impending destruction of Israel. It happened.



> Note that the passages also indicate that no one will EVER live there again, in that land - not just the city - also again eliminates the concept of Jerusalem because of course we have Christ reigning in the Millenial kingdom from Jerusalem and all of Israel and remember, the Millennial Kingdom stretches through Iraq to the Euphrates River so Iraq also cannot be Mystery Babylon.

All this presupposes Premillenialism. Amillenialism makes a good case. Second, there is a *NEW* Jerusalem (Rev. 21). Guess why there has to be a New Jerusalem: because old Jerusalem's fire department worked a little overtime.


> Now there is also the second aspect of the judgment - a 2nd judgment of water.
Jeremiah 51:42 - The sea comes up over her by a multitude of waves. Verse 55 "her
waves roar" and verse 64 "thus shall Babylon sink".

You're falsely equating the Babylon of Revelation with the Babylon of Jeremiah. Babylon of Jeremiah was literal--it was Babylon. There was a literal, powerful Babylon threatening Israel when Jeremiah was prophesying. Jeremiah wasn't speaking a bunch of weird stuff--when Jeremiah said Babylon, he meant Babylon. When he said Medes, Chaldeans, Israel...he meant just that.


> Revelation 16:17-21 describes
Babylon's second judgment will occur at the same time that all the mountains collapse and the islands disappear - and God will remember Babylon too. But Revelation 18:21
tells us how this happens: An angel takes a stone like a giant millstone and casts it
(greek term is ekballoh= 'to missile' something) into the sea, (beside Babylon).

Two arguments:

1) Rev. 18:21 ...an angel took up a stone...and threw it into the sea, saying, "With such violence Babylon the great city will be thrown down and found no more."

The passage is figurative. The angel is not literally destroying Babylon. The angel came out and said, "I am using symbolism here."

2) If you adhere to Jeremiah, then it is an army from the north who destroys Babylon in an hour (Jeremiah 50).



Also, remember Rev 18:11-19 tells us that the city-proper is a seaport. Jerusalem is not a seaport.

Oh no no no no...I used to believe this, too. But read it more closely:

Rev. 18:9 And the kings of the earth...when they see *THE SMOKE* of her burning
Rev. 18:10 ...they will stand *FAR OFF*
Rev. 18:15 The merchants...will stand *FAR OFF*, in fear of her torment...
Rev. 18:17 And all the shipmasters and seafarers...stood *FAR OFF*...
Rev. 18:18 ...and cried out as they saw *THE SMOKE* of her burning.

Take note: they don't see Babylon burning--they see the *SMOKE* of her burning. You're envisioning the same thing I first did: a bunch of ships off in the distance, watching a port city burning. But that's not what it says. The wind can very easily carry the smoke the 15 miles or so necessary. Also, Scripture does not require the sailors to be standing on a ship--only that they stand far off. Say, in Tel Aviv (which is a port city)?


> In other words, the theories that Jerusalem or Iraq are Babylon would be contrary to the Messianic prophecies.

I never saw any quoted Messianic prophesies.

Revelation 17:5-11

"This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
7When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction."

These verses tell us about who this "MYSTERY BABYLON"

'"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."'

Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.


At the time of Revelation's writing, didn't Israel fit precisely that category?

Hi

No

That fits who it is which is The AC who is the King of the Pit.the leader of the fallen Angels.

?????

Okay so Satan is the Antichrist. Who was, and is not, and will be. I don't understand how Satan is the AC, but okay.... How was Satan "not", at the time of Revelation's writing?

Second, are you saying this is not a true statement: that, at the time of Revelation's writing, Israel had been, was not, and was yet to come (say, in 1948).

?

applepowerpc said:

?????

Okay so Satan is the Antichrist. Who was, and is not, and will be. I don't understand how Satan is the AC, but okay.... How was Satan "not", at the time of Revelation's writing?

Second, are you saying this is not a true statement: that, at the time of Revelation's writing, Israel had been, was not, and was yet to come (say, in 1948).

?

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Satan is not the AC.

Who was = was alive
is not = dead
will be = recovered from a deady wound, at which time Satan will posses the AC.

Rev 13:2-3 KJV
(2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev 17:11 KJV
(11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The eight beast is OF the seventh, this is refering to the beast after he recovers from his deadly wound... This does not happen until mid-Trib when satan is cast out of heaven...

Hi

I agree Satan is not the AC.

The AC is the king of the Fallen Angels who has been deceived by Satan.

However the AC does not get a deadly head wound that is the kingdom of Rome and then it is Healed and comes back as revised Rome or the Holy Roman Empire.

The Beast of REv 13 is the Kingdom of Rome. If you run Rev 12 and 13 together this becomes very apparent.

The eight beast is OF the seventh, this is refering to the beast after he recovers from his deadly wound... This does not happen until mid-Trib when satan is cast out of heaven...

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The beast has been healed or recovered. Remember the eighth is of the seven. Israel is not of the seven.

The beast received the deadly wound and has been healed.

Hi Paul


Satan has already been cast out of Heaven. Jesus tells us when this happened.

Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

this happens after the 70 go out and start driving out the demons

9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

You will notice this whole chapter is done in the Past tense that is because at the time of writing all of these events had already happened

> NO, Israel did not fit this at all.



*sigh* thanks for backing that up.

586 B.C. Israel ceased to be
65 A.D. Israel was not
1948 Israel came to be

Hi

No that is not right

israel was up to 715 BC then it was No more

Judea was up to 586 BC and then it was no More...................then in 538 BC it was again and was so until 70 AD then it was no More.

Now what we have today is Not Israel of the Old testament it is Judea so to say Israel is back is just not true.

here is a verse that talks about Modern Israel .we know it is about Modern Israel because this is the first time the Jewish People Have called their Nation Israel.

Jesus was a Jew born in Judea .......................Herod was King of Judea..................Rome occupied Judea.

So here are Gods words about Modern Israel

1: Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. 2: For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.

That is Modern Israel staying themselves on the Lord God of Host But not in Truth or Righteousness. they refuse to except jesus instead they seek to bring back the Temple and animal sacrifice..............This plan is of Satan and all who help help Satan plain and simple.

The chapter goes on to say they will all be wiped out for the Evil they do in the Name of God. You know like the Ethnic cleansing the destroying of Houses the murder of innocents.

9: For my name's sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off. 10: Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. 11: For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Yes God has a Plan for the Jews who go by the Name of Israel ………………but it is not what the Fundies teach.