The Mass is Heaven on Earth!!!
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To JillLars
Revelation is played out everytime that we go to Mass! Eventhough you've left the church you should read "The Lamb's Supper: Mass as Heaven on Earth" it was written by Scott Hahn, a former protestant preacher. Jesus is there with us physically in the Body and Blood, not as a Symbol but He's actually there! What made you leave?
Revelation is played out everytime that we go to Mass! Eventhough you've left the church you should read "The Lamb's Supper: Mass as Heaven on Earth" it was written by Scott Hahn, a former protestant preacher. Jesus is there with us physically in the Body and Blood, not as a Symbol but He's actually there! What made you leave?
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We have Jesus always with us in the Holy Spirit. I can be in the middle of a parking lot or at home in bed and since Ive been saved, I know the Spirit is with me always.
I am an ex-Catholic too. Why is this physical precense necessary? I would like a Catholic to explain. Catholics believe that they have the Holy Spirit with them too right? (correct me if Im wrong)
Some of us who used to fall asleep at Mass or who often got bored because of the repetition---may find it kind of strange to call Mass "heaven on earth"
Someone once I read it on a message board that if Catholics really believe that God is present in their Eucharist--"Why arent Catholics crawling to the altar?"I found this an interesting question.
I read Lamb's Supper before my exit last year.
I am an ex-Catholic too. Why is this physical precense necessary? I would like a Catholic to explain. Catholics believe that they have the Holy Spirit with them too right? (correct me if Im wrong)
Some of us who used to fall asleep at Mass or who often got bored because of the repetition---may find it kind of strange to call Mass "heaven on earth"
Someone once I read it on a message board that if Catholics really believe that God is present in their Eucharist--"Why arent Catholics crawling to the altar?"I found this an interesting question.
I read Lamb's Supper before my exit last year.
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Gee, I was baptised Catholic, and have a Catholic father. Isn't the purpose of Mass to worship God? I hardly think that anything that man can create as far as worship goes can even come close to comparing to the riches and fullness of heaven. If Mass were heaven on earth you'd have quite a few fewer congregants. Because, like in ANY church, the unsaved wouldn't be there. My father goes to Mass on a regular basis, but as far as I know, he won't be in heaven, because he thinks Jesus is a good guy, but has never acknowledged Him as his Lord and Saviour.
Sorry big guy - Mass is simply man's attempt to worship God - just like any other church in the world. But heaven? Far from it. That would make heaven meaningless really.
Sorry big guy - Mass is simply man's attempt to worship God - just like any other church in the world. But heaven? Far from it. That would make heaven meaningless really.
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I really wish I could answer why not everyone is crawling to the altar. Just like everything else in life some people are more involved than others and some just go through the motions. After reading this book I realized inside my heart what was around me. If you say that you love someone in an elaborate way with all this excitement and balloons and streemers but in your heart your not really into it but just going through the motions, it's not really love right. The Mass is the same way. If you just go throught the motions you truely can't expirience Heaven. All of us have done it and many will do it forever and that's why we need to pray.
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The Mass and the Church were started by a Man. Jesus was that man. In everyother religion that I've talked to someone from they refer to their bread and wine as a symbol but in the Catholic FAITH it truely is the Body and Blood of Christ. The power that he bestowed in Simon Peter as the Rock, the corner stone of His Church, has been passed down in an Apostolic Chain to the current pope, bishops, and priests. That's why the Mass isn't a 'service' but a special gift from above. I'm truely sorry that you don't see that. Many of the religions that I see around are Man made. Someone didn't like what was going on so they took what they like and made their own religion and so on and so on. Not to say that you are wrong or what you believe is wrong but incomplete. That's why there is nothing that can break my faith. No one man or error. We are human and what God gives us in the Mass is a chance to help in our own salvation.
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KC Catholic
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Wow...lot's of new faces here!
Welcome Randy20, KeysForChrist and JillLars...and of course Budge..who is a veteran of these forums.
The 'Our Father' says..."On earth as it is in heaven"...this is the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray. Jesus asked that we remember his sacrafice by participating in communion. We say the 'Our Father' prayer at every Mass during communion..so we are asking God to make our communion the same on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Randy20 is not trying to say Mass is a replacement for heaven..but because we are all connected as a part of the mystical body of Christ and heaven does not separate us from Jesus ..we are in the presence of Christ at Mass.
Budge asked "Why is this physical precense necessary?"...well God felt he needed to physically come to earth to get our attention, so he sent his Son to take a physical form in order to teach us.
Christ's teachings, church and ministry are very much meant to be a physical presence - he did not establish an invisble church.
Keys commented : "My father goes to Mass on a regular basis, but as far as I know, he won't be in heaven, because he thinks Jesus is a good guy, but has never acknowledged Him as his Lord and Saviour."
Wow...you have judged your father based soley on a requirement established by a man-made church and thus dishonored your father and violated one of the 10 commandments. Have you asked your father how he feels about your perception? Maybe you are misunderstanding his position.
It is a common misunderstanding that Catholics believe by going to Mass every Sunday and thinking Jesus is a 'good guy' will get them to heaven. I have not met a Catholic yet who really lives by those beliefs and I am a convert to Catholicism.
It is simply a false notion to think Catholics believe that and I think you need to first apologize to your father and ask for his forgiveness, then find out what he really believes.
Peace.
Welcome Randy20, KeysForChrist and JillLars...and of course Budge..who is a veteran of these forums.
The 'Our Father' says..."On earth as it is in heaven"...this is the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray. Jesus asked that we remember his sacrafice by participating in communion. We say the 'Our Father' prayer at every Mass during communion..so we are asking God to make our communion the same on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Randy20 is not trying to say Mass is a replacement for heaven..but because we are all connected as a part of the mystical body of Christ and heaven does not separate us from Jesus ..we are in the presence of Christ at Mass.
Budge asked "Why is this physical precense necessary?"...well God felt he needed to physically come to earth to get our attention, so he sent his Son to take a physical form in order to teach us.
Christ's teachings, church and ministry are very much meant to be a physical presence - he did not establish an invisble church.
Keys commented : "My father goes to Mass on a regular basis, but as far as I know, he won't be in heaven, because he thinks Jesus is a good guy, but has never acknowledged Him as his Lord and Saviour."
Wow...you have judged your father based soley on a requirement established by a man-made church and thus dishonored your father and violated one of the 10 commandments. Have you asked your father how he feels about your perception? Maybe you are misunderstanding his position.
It is a common misunderstanding that Catholics believe by going to Mass every Sunday and thinking Jesus is a 'good guy' will get them to heaven. I have not met a Catholic yet who really lives by those beliefs and I am a convert to Catholicism.
It is simply a false notion to think Catholics believe that and I think you need to first apologize to your father and ask for his forgiveness, then find out what he really believes.
Peace.
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I've asked my father point blank about his relationship with Jesus Christ, and he told me Jesus was a "good guy who didn't care a whole lot about money". My father is not a born-again Christian. I am not judging my father, but simply stating the case that of all the evidence I have been witness to, he does not believe Jesus is his Lord and Saviour, but rather a "good guy". Obviously, you are pretty bold to think that you would know my father better then I would based on a sentence in a forum submission. That's pretty callous of you.
To sit here and defend my opinion like this is totally uncalled for, and irrelevant to the point of the conversation. This is what Bill O'Reilly refers to as "spinning".
To sit here and defend my opinion like this is totally uncalled for, and irrelevant to the point of the conversation. This is what Bill O'Reilly refers to as "spinning".
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This is exactly what KC said. Your belief is a man made tradition that all that is required for salvation is 'asking Jesus into your heart'.
No, what he said was 'have you asked him?' and 'maybe you misunderstood him'
I think you're the one doing the spinning.
Michelle
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KC Catholic
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You are correct in saying that it is not my place to sit in judgment about my father, but I can only comment on what I believe to be the truth. He may very well get into heaven, but that's between him and God. But as far as I know, he is not a born again Christian.
The reason why the argument of my father is irrelevant is because I was using that as an example of someone I know who goes to Mass. And in my argument I was merely stating that Mass is simply a worship service, just like ANY church of ANY denomination. This is not an attempt to bash Catholicism, but merely to say that I wouldn't define Mass as Heaven on Earth. Besides, we attend Mass or Worship Services to Glorify God, and not ourselves. So whether you go through the motions, fall asleep, or have an earth shattering experience during Mass/Worship is irrelevant. Are you worshiping God, rather then trying to get something out of the service for your own personal benefit.
This has been my biggest struggle in LEADING worship services. The focus has been, ashamedly so, about myself, and what I was gaining from the experience, rather then giving the Praise and Glory and Worship strictly to God. Then again, I am as much a sinner as the rest of us.
But being born again is scriptural. From the mouth of Jesus himself,
John 3: 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] "
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.'
The reason why the argument of my father is irrelevant is because I was using that as an example of someone I know who goes to Mass. And in my argument I was merely stating that Mass is simply a worship service, just like ANY church of ANY denomination. This is not an attempt to bash Catholicism, but merely to say that I wouldn't define Mass as Heaven on Earth. Besides, we attend Mass or Worship Services to Glorify God, and not ourselves. So whether you go through the motions, fall asleep, or have an earth shattering experience during Mass/Worship is irrelevant. Are you worshiping God, rather then trying to get something out of the service for your own personal benefit.
This has been my biggest struggle in LEADING worship services. The focus has been, ashamedly so, about myself, and what I was gaining from the experience, rather then giving the Praise and Glory and Worship strictly to God. Then again, I am as much a sinner as the rest of us.
But being born again is scriptural. From the mouth of Jesus himself,
John 3: 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[1] "
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[3] must be born again.'
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Lynn
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I loved that book and have looked at the Mass with new eyes ever since I read it.
I think that if we "fall asleep" during Mass, just go through the motions of participating, or fail to fully appreciate its significance, then that is a fault within ourselves, not with the Mass. (just as some don't fully participate or appreciate the services at any other church) Its all laid out before us every day. If we don't avail ourselves of the blessings, grace, peace, and joy of the Mass, we can't blame God or the Catholic Church.
just my $0.2
lynn
I think that if we "fall asleep" during Mass, just go through the motions of participating, or fail to fully appreciate its significance, then that is a fault within ourselves, not with the Mass. (just as some don't fully participate or appreciate the services at any other church) Its all laid out before us every day. If we don't avail ourselves of the blessings, grace, peace, and joy of the Mass, we can't blame God or the Catholic Church.
just my $0.2
lynn
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KC Catholic
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Has he been baptised? If so..then he has been 'born again' according to the Catholic interpretation (the first interpretation) of John 3:3-5, which you correctly point out in your comments.
Regeneration (being "born again") is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:122; Eph. 6:1117). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event.
The term "born again" may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated "born again" (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the BibleJohn 3:3 and 3:7and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word anothen sometimes can be translated "again," but in the New Testament, it most often means "from above." In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated "again" are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering. Another term is "regeneration." When referring to something that occurs in the life of an individual believer, it only appears in Titus 3:5. In other passages, the new birth phenomenon is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:1112), and becoming a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15).
Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol. In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).
If your father has been baptised - he has been born again according to the Churchs interpretation of those verses. Likewise, as the Bible says, your father is already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:58), but he is also <I>being</I> saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and he hs the hope that he <I>will be </I>saved (Rom. 5:910, 1 Cor. 3:1215). Like the apostle Paul, he working out his salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:1113).
Not all of this is my words...I did gather a lot of this from http://www.catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp and http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp...
I just don't have time to write each thing down from my lips so those passages are in bold italics.
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my father is far from "fear and trembling".
Now how did this get to be a discertation on my father's salvation? Geez, use an example and get a lecture.
Now how did this get to be a discertation on my father's salvation? Geez, use an example and get a lecture.
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