We Choose God?

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Reformationist

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Today at 08:13 AM didaskalos said this in Post #22

Can God choose us, and then we refuse the selection?

I don't personally think it's an issue of "can we" but rather "would we."  As I understand the sovereign grace of God I would have to say that it is His act of choosing us (regenerating us, giving us a new nature that desires to do His Will, and sanctifying us through the conforming work of the Holy Spirit) that brings us to repentence.  Once chosen, the Truth of the Gospel is inexorably linked to who we are and what we believe.  It is impossible, IMO, for a truly saved individual to deny who they are and what they believe because they have the Holy Spirit within them and a house cannot be divided against itself.  Now, if the question is, "can we expel the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit" I'd have to say that it boils down to an issue of semantics because our new nature always and forever desires the things of God and would never desire the absence of the Lord's presence so it would never happen, regardless of whether it could.

God bless
 
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Andrew

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Is all this theological arguing abt whether God chose us or we choose God or whether we CAN choose God or know that we CAN'T choose God etc etc etc really that crucial?

we shld just go out and preach the Gospel to every creature, him that believes saved, him that does not believe....(you know what happens).

those that are saved, just thank God for his mercy and grace for the rest of your life.
 
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Today at 08:29 PM Andrew said this in Post #25

Is all this theological arguing abt whether God chose us or we choose God or whether we CAN choose God or know that we CAN'T choose God etc etc etc really that crucial?

I don't personally think it's crucial, or even contributory, to our salvation.  I do, however, think it plays a very big part in the way we view, and thus seek to glorify, God.

God bless
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Today at 01:20 AM paulewog said this in Post #27

Actually, I think it IS rather ... important?

I mean, afterall, we're dealing with a lot of things here - Sovreignty of God, salvation, etc.... :)

I dunno paulewog...
These things are important to people like us who spend time debating, teaching, and studying these things... but your average believer who only knows they love God and worship at church... it really makes little or no difference.
 
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paulewog

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Well if it makes little or no difference, then why did Paul speak about it? And Peter? And Timothy? ;)

It does affect a lot. It affects how you view slavation - if you go to the extreme "predestination side" then you might just not witness at all. Or see no need to.

If you go to the extreme "free-will" side then you will probably end up thinking you can lose your salvation.

Both of those are not good, and DO affect things, it's not just an intellectual debate. :)
 
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Job_38

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15th April 2003 at 04:29 AM Andrew said this in Post #25

Is all this theological arguing abt whether God chose us or we choose God or whether we CAN choose God or know that we CAN'T choose God etc etc etc really that crucial?

we shld just go out and preach the Gospel to every creature, him that believes saved, him that does not believe....(you know what happens).

those that are saved, just thank God for his mercy and grace for the rest of your life.


To have a correct view of who God is and who we are is a very large part of how we can grow with him.

&nbsp;

Read the last sentance you wrote again. If I believe&nbsp;I gained that, how much pride will I have and how much this will get in the way. But when I come to the understanding that I have nothing to boast about, then it becomes, well, easier. No more struggling to understand passages that say God chooses us 'before the foundations of the Earth.' No longer must I twist passages to fit what I view as the right way.

&nbsp;

Now to the second thing you wrote. How will we effectively preach the Gospel if we preach it incorrectly? But, even so, God will save who He will save. Because as we were dead in our sins, He still loved us and gave us a way out. There was no way I could have it.

This is why its important: Spiritual growth and a true understanding of who God is.

Thanks for listening to my spill.

&nbsp;

&nbsp;
 
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Yesterday at 06:48 PM Job_38 said this in Post #30




To have a correct view of who God is and who we are is a very large part of how we can grow with him.

&nbsp;

Read the last sentance you wrote again. If I believe&nbsp;I gained that, how much pride will I have and how much this will get in the way. But when I come to the understanding that I have nothing to boast about, then it becomes, well, easier. No more struggling to understand passages that say God chooses us 'before the foundations of the Earth.' No longer must I twist passages to fit what I view as the right way.

&nbsp;

Now to the second thing you wrote. How will we effectively preach the Gospel if we preach it incorrectly? But, even so, God will save who He will save. Because as we were dead in our sins, He still loved us and gave us a way out. There was no way I could have it.

This is why its important: Spiritual growth and a true understanding of who God is.

Thanks for listening to my spill.

Nicely said Job. :clap:

God bless
 
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rnmomof7

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10th April 2003 at 01:04 PM Quaffer said this in Post #6

I don't think I had any part in my salvation. I do believe though that I choose whether to walk in obedience to Him or not. :)


Do you mean before you were saved or after?
 
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rnmomof7

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11th April 2003 at 12:15 AM Andrew said this in Post #8



that wld mean men are all just puppets, or that God created all pre-programmed robots. sounds like a very cold world.


Was Jesus a puppet?


All men since Adam are born sinners , we all have no desire for God in our heart..Like Adam and Eve we freely choose to run and hide and use coverings that please our selves. That is the result of the sin of one man .

What makes one man decide that he wants serve God and not sin , and another hear the same gospel decids to keep his apron of leaves?
 
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rnmomof7

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11th April 2003 at 09:20 AM didaskalos said this in Post #9



I actually agree with both sides... yet both sides would likely disagree with me... :sorry:

I think that the only way a person can be saved for God to draw them to Himself. He initates the action, and we can only respond. :bow:

Thing is, he is drawing all men to Himself, so the ball is really in our court. :clap:


I have two questions on this

I agree God initates the salvation of men , but if a man can refuse the grace ,does that mean that mans will is stronger than the grace of God?

2nd If God indeed desire that all (PAS) men (without exception) be drawn how do we explain the generations of men that never have heard the gospel..IF God desired them saved He with held the means of faith from them.

We end up having to respond to the universal call.

I think the difference people have is in deciding who will respond and who will not. It seems one side is saying that God knows and so controls who will accept. The rejecters are lost causes so what is the use working with them. The other side says no. God knows, but has no part in the ulitimate decision as to who will accept and who will not.
I tend toward the latter. I think God knows... but it is not a "knowing" that lends itself to treating the accepters different from the rejecters. Jesus died for all... even the rejectors. He has taken away the sin of the world. This indicates God choose and made provision for all.
They just do not want Him.

The bible says no men want Him

Was anyone saved at the cross?




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Thunderchild

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John 6:44
oudeis dunatai elqein proV me ean mh o pathr o pempas me elkush autoV no-one/ can/ be coming/ to/ me/ if/ not/ the/ Father/ who/ sent/ me/ will be drawn/ you ... notes: "be coming" denotes movement to, but not arrival. "will be drawn" (second person singular future middle indicative), the critical word in the passage. In English there are two possible interpretations: either the Father will draw the person, or the person will be drawn to the Father. (as in the normal concept of "he is drawn to someone.") In Koine Greek only one interpretation, the second, is valid. {The e of elkush is part of the verb, not an augment.}

Romans 3:10-12 is answered - "I was found by a people who did not seek me."

Romans 8:29 Whom He foreknew he also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son proegnw "foreknew" (assuming that this is in fact first person singular aorist active subjunctive, which at this time is a point I cannot make with any certainty) makes no statement about how far in the past God "foreknew" the people concerned. Taking the parable of the prodigal son as a template, and using the proper interpretation of proegnw in that story, the son was foreknown only from the time that he was seen to be returning to the Father.
 
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SoccerAaron said:
If it's our choice, we wouldn't choose God. Romans 3:10-12

That passage isn't talking about choices. It says that no one seeks after God.
That is different than making a choice to except God once he puts the call on us.

That passage is talking about everyone under sin, and how we are all guilty.
 
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SUNSTONE

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paulewog said:
As I said. Are we EVER going to understand this? Maybe, maybe not, but we sure won't with our minds the way they are.

How in the world can free will and sovreignty be coexistant?

"You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you." That's a really important passage. ;)

There are many that speak about predestination and many that spaek about out free-will. also known as, "rebellious will" ;)

Not sure of the exact definition of sovreignty, but here is the short.

Sovreignty- To be in charge, or to have authority, like a general of an army.

I don't think it means, to be in total control of every action.
I think that predestination means, plans for our lives. But you can read throughout the bible about the laws of reaping and sowing. We can either fufill those plans or not.

Yes the Lord chose us first, but we have the option to except or not.

Thats what I believe. :wave:
 
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rnmomof7 said:
I have two questions on this

I agree God initates the salvation of men , but if a man can refuse the grace ,does that mean that mans will is stronger than the grace of God?

2nd If God indeed desire that all (PAS) men (without exception) be drawn how do we explain the generations of men that never have heard the gospel..IF God desired them saved He with held the means of faith from them.



The bible says no men want Him

Was anyone saved at the cross?


[/size] [/B]
[/QUOTE]

All grace is, is undeserved favor.
A man can except it or not, and if he can't chose, then he has no free will. He is in fact a puppet, or atleast with this decision.
In Peter, I think, it says that it is Gods will that all men get saved. Aren't there men in the bible that went to hell? But yet it wasn't Gods will, was it, according to Peter.

The second question, is one of the most asked by unbelievers. And my answer is always the same. Show me a person that has never heard of Jesus. If you can show me a person, then I will witness to them, and fix that problem. :p
I personaly don't think there are people that have never heard of Jesus.
 
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