Daniel 9:24-27 Can of worms

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Here is Daniel 9:24-27 from the KJV;

 

<SUP>24</SUP> Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. <SUP>25</SUP> Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. <SUP>26</SUP> And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. <SUP>27</SUP> And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


&nbsp;

Compare it to what Jesus said His mission was to be in Luke 4;

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<SUP>18</SUP> The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, <SUP>19</SUP> To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

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Comparing the verses in Luke to the verses in Issiah 61;

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<SUP>1</SUP> The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; <SUP>2</SUP> To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; <SUP>3</SUP> To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

&nbsp;

Now, verse 27 in Daniel, is probably the most controversial piece of scripture in Christian prophecy interpretation.&nbsp; Most of what I have read in the mainstream, claims that the one who confirms a covenant is antichrist.&nbsp; If anyone wants to discuss the matter further, I will be happy to continue.
 
P

Pistos Ergon

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The futurist interpretation of this passage denies the prophecy of Jesus' baptism in verse 24. It also denies His crucifixion in verse 27 and applies it instead to the antichrist, in an astounding twisting of scripture. I submit the futurist's house is built on sand and will not stand scrutiny.

THE 70 WEEK PROPHECY OF DANIEL

http://biblelight.net/dan927.htm
 
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Yesterday at 07:35 PM paulewog said this in Post #3

Uh, how haev we had the end of sins?

I see sin all over still.

Christ's sacrifice on the cross most definately was the end of sins!

1 John 3
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.


Idzerd
 
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Yesterday at 09:46 PM Idzerd VanDellen said this in Post #7



Christ's sacrifice on the cross most definately was the end of sins!

1 John 3
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.


Idzerd

&nbsp;

You are absolutely right!

Sin is no longer used by God as the measuring stick for salvation.

Sin can no longer keep man from God.

If you reject Christ, you are doomed, whether you sin or not.

If you are in Christ, you are saved even though you sin.

Sin is dead. It has been forever stripped of any power it ever had. It's over.
 
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Let's look at the first verse in Daniel on the matter shall we?

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

&nbsp;

What did Jesus accomplish during His 3.5 year ministry on earth, prior to being cut off?&nbsp; For sure, He made reconciliation for iniquity on the cross, and yes, His being sinless was a requirement, as the sacrifice had to be without blemish.

Sealing up prophecy and the vision will happen when all of them are fulfilled.

Anointing the most Holy will occur when Jesus returns to earth, saves the Jews from total destruction, judges the nations, and is annointed King of Israel and rules the earth with a rod of iron.

Bringing in everlasting righteousness has to occur when He returns as well, since all we have to do is look around us and see that righteousness isn't exactly flourishing in the streets.

The term "to finish the transgression" most likely refers to Israel(the wife of God) being restored to her position, ending her role as the harlot.

There is no requirement in the verses in Daniel that necessitate any of the accomplishments in verse 24 be done in any particular order, at least that I can see.&nbsp; They only have to be done before the 70 weeks are complete.&nbsp; Half of a week remains to be completed.
 
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dmac5,

Why are 70 weeks determined? To do these things:
1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy

1. Finish the Transgression.
Recall that to begin with, the Jews were in captivity for 490 years because of not honoring the Sabbath - they didn't give the land rest every seven years. The 70 years of capitivity in Babylon gave the land its rest. This is in 2 Chronicles 36- it's a whole lot of verses. Then God gives them another 490 years - maybe this time is their last chance.

2. Make an End of Sins.
Though we still sin, if we are saved, then there is no condemnation for those sins.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

3. Make Reconciliation for Iniquity.
Only Jesus could do this. He came to make reconciliation for us.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

4. Bring in Everlasting Righteousness
Jesus Himself said that He fulfilled all righteousness.


Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


5. Seal up the Vision and Prophecy
Contrary to what most teach about this passage, "seal up" doesn't mean to hide it from men's understanding until the last days. From Strong's, seal is [2856] chatham: meaning to close up, make an end of, stop. So Jesus made the end of this vision and prophecy. It doesn't say "all visions and prophecies" for you naysayers. It says "the vision..."

6. Anoint the Most Holy
Again, Jesus was anointed at His baptism in Mark 1. He alone (not the Jews) is the Most Holy.

dmac5,
Jesus has accomplished all these things, and more.

The 70 weeks are over, there is no gap.

Christ is the ruling King over the present Heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18-19) and the increase of His government has no end:

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

1 Peter 3:21-22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, AFTER angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.


So Jesus Christ is the ruling King over the present earth and the God of this world:


Eph 1:20-22
he raised him [Jesus] from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above ALL principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and EVERY name that is named, NOT ONLY IN THIS WORLD, but also in that which is to come: And hath put ALL things under his feet

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


I must also&nbsp;agree with ephod, and disagree with you&nbsp;about Israel.
Jesus and His JEWISH followers, with gentiles grafted in, were/are "TRUE ISRAEL". The rest were cast out forever back in the 1st century.

The Christ rejecting, gospel denying people who occupy that patch of dirt we call "Israel" today, have no more right to the name "Israel" than&nbsp;do Palisitnians, muslims, buddhists, hindus, wiccans or atheists.

There is no ISRAEL apart from Christ.

Never has been, never will be.
 
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Yesterday at 10:41 AM LastDazed said this in Post #8



&nbsp;

You are absolutely right!

Sin is no longer used by God as the measuring stick for salvation.

Sin can no longer keep man from God.

If you reject Christ, you are doomed, whether you sin or not.

If you are in Christ, you are saved even though you sin.

Sin is dead. It has been forever stripped of any power it ever had. It's over.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


Idzerd
 
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The last week of the 70 is divided in half.&nbsp; The first half began with Jesus' baptism and ended when He was "cut off", 3.5 years later at the cross.&nbsp; The second half of the week begins with the setting up of the abomination of desolation and ends with the 7th trumpet, 1260 days later, or 3.5 years.&nbsp; The period between the two half weeks is a "mystery period".&nbsp; All of the 70 weeks pertain to Israel and not the church, though the church is around in the last week.&nbsp; There are two story lines, intertwined in the last week of the 70.&nbsp; One story line deals with Israel, which, when Jesus returns physically, will be the capital of the world for 1000 years, on earth, and Jesus will be annointed king of Israel, by Israel, in the matter of every other previous king.&nbsp; The other story line deals with the church.&nbsp; What I am trying to say can be explained by the story of Abraham in his quest to find a bride for Issac.

Abraham sends his servant, Eliezar, to Abraham's own kin to find Issac a wife.&nbsp; Abraham is representative of God, finding a bride for Christ.&nbsp; Abraham has his own wife and Issac has his own wife.&nbsp; Israel is the wife of God, and the church is the bride of Christ.&nbsp; The church has not replaced Israel, but is being used by God to provoke Israel to jealousy.

Romans11:<SUP>25</SUP> For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. <SUP>26</SUP> And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: <SUP>27</SUP> For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. <SUP>28</SUP> As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. <SUP>29</SUP> For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. <SUP>30</SUP> For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: <SUP>31</SUP> Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. <SUP>32</SUP> For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Romans 10:19 - But I say, Did not <B>Israel</B> know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

The church and Israel are not mutually exclusive.&nbsp; Blindness, in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the gentiles comes in.&nbsp; When the last gentile is brought into the fold, Israel will see clearly and the two will become one.&nbsp; One might ask when will this happen?&nbsp; At armageddon, Israel is surrounded by armies bent on their destruction.&nbsp; The Lord descends from heaven, sets foot on the mount of Olives and the mountain splits from north to south, creating a canyon into Jerusalem.&nbsp; The Jews run out, seeking escape, see the Lord standing there and ask Him, where did you get those marks in your hands and feet, and He will reply "in the house of my friends".&nbsp; At that point, all Israel is saved, as it is written;

<SUP>Zechariah 13:6</SUP> And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Zechariah14:<SUP>1</SUP> Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. <SUP>2</SUP> For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. <SUP>3</SUP> Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. <SUP>4</SUP> And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. <SUP>5</SUP> And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. <SUP>6</SUP> And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: <SUP>7</SUP> But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. <SUP>8</SUP> And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. <SUP>9</SUP> And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. <SUP>10</SUP> All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. <SUP>11</SUP> And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. <SUP>12</SUP> And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. <SUP>13</SUP> And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. <SUP>14</SUP> And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. <SUP>15</SUP> And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ***, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. <SUP>16</SUP> And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. <SUP>17</SUP> And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. <SUP>18</SUP> And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. <SUP>19</SUP> This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. <SUP>20</SUP> In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. <SUP>21</SUP> Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.


There will be a kingdom, on earth, ruled by Christ, with its capital in Jerusalem.&nbsp; There will be a wedding feast in heaven occurring simultaneously, composed of Christians.
 
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I don't recall speaking of any covenant, perhaps you can elaborate?&nbsp;

As for the first 24 verses of the chapter, here they are;

<SUP>1</SUP>I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. <SUP>2</SUP>God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: <SUP>3</SUP>"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"<SUP>[1]</SUP> ? <SUP>4</SUP>And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."<SUP>[2]</SUP> <SUP>5</SUP>So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. <SUP>6</SUP>And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.<SUP>[3]</SUP>
<SUP>7</SUP>What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, <SUP>8</SUP>as it is written:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;eyes so that they could not see
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and ears so that they could not hear,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to this very day."<SUP>[4]</SUP> <SUP>9</SUP>And David says:
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"May their table become a snare and a trap,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SUP> 10</SUP>May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and their backs be bent forever."<SUP>[5]</SUP>

<I>Ingrafted Branches </I>

<SUP>11</SUP>Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. <SUP>12</SUP>But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
<SUP>13</SUP>I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry <SUP>14</SUP>in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. <SUP>15</SUP>For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? <SUP>16</SUP>If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
<SUP>17</SUP>If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, <SUP>18</SUP>do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. <SUP>19</SUP>You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." <SUP>20</SUP>Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. <SUP>21</SUP>For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
<SUP>22</SUP>Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. <SUP>23</SUP>And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. <SUP>24</SUP>After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!



As far as making one covenant obsolete, to which covenant are you referring?&nbsp; I am assuming the Mosaic covenant, which was fulfilled at the cross?

&nbsp;

So what has happened to Israel?&nbsp; Since as a whole, they rejected the Messiah, blindness in part is happened to Israel, <B>until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in</B>.&nbsp; What happens when the fulness of the gentiles comes in?&nbsp; Jesus returns to earth physically to end the battle of Armageddon, save the Jews from certain destruction, judges the world, is crowned king of Israel, annointed by the people of Israel, and rules the earth for 1000 years.

There is a kingdom on earth during the 1000 years, and there is an invisible component of the same kingdom in heaven at the same time.&nbsp; Those Christians, who are counted worthy, will rule and reign during the milennium.&nbsp; We are told that;

At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be <B>like</B> the <B>angels</B> in heaven.



<DIV class=SearchResults><SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Mark 12:25</SPAN>
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be <B>like</B> the <B>angels</B> in heaven.


</DIV>
<DIV class=SearchResults><SPAN class=NavigationLinks>Luke 20:36</SPAN>
and they can no longer die; for they are <B>like</B> the <B>angels</B>. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
</DIV>
<DIV class=SearchResults>Therefore I assume that resurrected believers will be like the angels, which at least to me says that they will operate in the unseen realm, not the earthly.</DIV>
 
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Today at 11:30 AM dmac5 said this in Post #18



As far as making one covenant obsolete, to which covenant are you referring?&nbsp; I am assuming the Mosaic covenant, which was fulfilled at the cross?

Well, according to the Hebrews passage ephod qouted, the Old covenant had not yet vanished at the time hebrews was written, some 20+ years AFTER the cross.

At the time Hebrews was written, the Mosaic covenant, though still very much in existance, was indeed in the proccess of growing old , and ready to vanish.

dmac says the Mosaic Covenant ended at the cross..........

The writer of Hebrews says it was still around some 30+ years after the cross.

I've gotta go with the writer of Hebrews on this.

BTW dmac, if the OC was fulfilled on the cross, does that mean you believe Christ's resurrection was not necessary?
 
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