Did Jesus promise to return in the 1st cent.?

11th April 2003 at 03:31 AM parousia70 said this in Post #177



My Hope is in Jesus Christ of course! And I am but a stranger and pilgrim on this earth, for I, like the apostles and prophets, seek not earthly things, but the better country of Heaven, eternal.



For all of us who have placed our trust in Jesus Christ, our hope is heaven.  Biblical hope is not finger-crossing. It is a confident expectation of good things to come.

2 Corinthians 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul is using "tent" here as the physical body. This is the same way that Peter uses it in:

2 Peter 1:13-14  Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

Ed, some day you and I will physically die, and when that happens, we will not go out of existence, and we will not go to the Lake of fire, nor will we go to Hades or Abrahams Bosom to await resurrection.

No Ed, you and I will go immediatly to heaven, clothed in our spititual resurrection bodies(1 Cor. 15:44) that God gives us upon physical death(1Cor. 15:36-38).  

My hope (hope meaning: "absolute certainty about the future") is that when I leave this body at death, I will be with the Lord in Heaven in the manner stated above, and My reason for that hope lies in the testimony of scripture.

If you do not share in this hope with me Ed, What is your hope? 

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P70,

What heaven are you talking about, the Old Covenant or the New  Covenant?  I thought you said you are already in the New Heavens and the New earth that CAME with the second coming of Christ.

Please clarify what HEAVEN you are HOPING for. Apostle Peter wrote that "according to God's PROMISE, they look for new heavens and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13) with the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:10).

Ed

Hi Ed,

I don't believe the word "we" refers only to Paul or some of those he was writing to. If Jesus CAME in 70 AD and the verse refers ONLY to Paul and the early Christians, what about people of today. How will we meet Jesus in the air? What are we hoping for if Jesus HAD come already?

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Coming from this particular stage, I don't know how to explain this to you actually. Hopefully Par 70 is still around, he can do a much better explanation than I can.

When you are considering that the 'parousia' or the 'coming' is in 70 AD it changes the whole situation as far as how the eternal life comes about. The judgement and the commencement of the eternal life begins at the death of each individual. That process began somewhere in the first century and continues on until the planet no longer sustains life. That is how Paul or some of those he is writing to can be caught up in the air after the'parousia.'. Not only that, but their grandchildren a hundred years later are 'caught up' in the air with the Lord at the time of their personal death as well. Throughout the total history each person experiences two comings of Christ..one from scripture ,one at death.

Now the 'WE' can be read verbatim of the page. Now the prophecy of the Olivet discourse can be read verbatim as it comes off the page, no verse has to be explained away. This second coming of christ occurs at the death of each individual and the process had it's beginning sometime way back then.

That also explains why Rev 14:13 makes sense. Prior to the cross and whatever technicaliiies that followed it, mankind could not qualify for heaven, now because of the sacrifice, Blessed are they who die in the Lord from now on.... and the parousia happens.

I realize that is a really poor explanation. It is difficult starting with a verse like 1 Thess 4 which I usually use to end a conversation with.
Shoot back as many questions as you want and we'll go through them. Seek out any verses you feel will dispute this idea. I have no fear of being proven wrong for two reasons. First, I have found a handful of biblical verses that are clumsy in this interpretation, but none that refute it. If there are verses that prove it wrong, let's find out, theres no use believing the wrong biblical doctrine.

If my interpretation has holes in it there is no use carrying on with it, for you, me or anyone else.

Justme

Yesterday at 09:15 PM edpobre said this in Post #179

The dead "in" Christ who will ressurect at the second coming of Christ, AHEAD of the ungodly, will "MEET Jesus in the air" TOGETHER with those who are alive "in" Christ.

That's what 1 Thes. 4:16-17 LITERALLY means.

Ed

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Only if you disregard the context of the entire passage.
Paul is addressing living, breathing Christians of His day. To deny this is to deny scripture. They expressed concern about their Christian family members and friends who had died. Their concern was that they would miss out ont he resurrection, having died before the 2nd coming. Paul is addressing that concern specifically, reassuring his audience that not only would their dead relatives who died 'in Christ" not miss the resurrection, but they would indfact preceed those who remained alive .
The dead in Christ would rise first, followed at a later time by those still alive at the time the 2nd coming rolled around.

If you had died in Christ, you would rise at the 2nd coming.
If you were alive at the 2nd coming, then sometime after that, you would be caught up together with the dead in Christ who had risin first, to meet Jesus in the air (grk 'aer' meaning spiritual realm, not stratosphere btw)

That is what 1 Thess 4:16-17 LITERALLY means

Yesterday at 09:45 PM edpobre said this in Post #181



P70,

What heaven are you talking about, the Old Covenant or the New  Covenant?  I thought you said you are already in the New Heavens and the New earth that CAME with the second coming of Christ.

Please clarify what HEAVEN you are HOPING for. Apostle Peter wrote that "according to God's PROMISE, they look for new heavens and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13) with the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:10).

Ed

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Same heaven for both covenants Ed, it's just that in the Old Covenant, no one was allowed into heaven for atonement had not been achieved.

My hope (absolute certainty about the future) is that when I die physically, I will be immediately clothed in my resurrection body, and be caught up together with the dead in Christ who went before me.

In your theology Ed, if you died today, you would not go to heaven but to hades to await resurrection. There is no waiting in Biblical Preterism. No waiting for Jesus to accomplish anything. No half fulfilled promises waiting for consumation. It is done. Amazing isn't it? Glory to the one true God who keeps his promises!

The "New heavens and earth" on the other hand, is hebraic metaphore for the New Covenant, a new administration. Just as God called the Old Covenant "Heavens and earth" (Isaiah 51:16) So do the prophets of God (Peter, Isaiah, John) call the New Covenant "Heavens and earth".

Hope that helps!

Yesterday at 09:33 PM edpobre said this in Post #180

And think about it Justme, if this verse refers ONLY to Paul and the other Christians he was writing to, then the rest of the New Testament was NEVER intended for people who were born AFTER 70 AD, right?

Ed

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Joshua 6:3
And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.

Ed, is this verse for you?
It's in your Bible so it must be right?.

Your logic above demands this verse is written as an order TO YOU.

Better start marching!

It's not like the Edomites live to this very day (2 Kings 16:6)

The NT was initially for the 1st century. But the spiritual principles still apply (just as the OT still applies) since preterists do not claim that there would be no pain in the age to come since it's implied in Rev 22:2,15.

Plus, many claim that the 'age to come' is a restoration of the garden of Eden. So if that's the case, then we know that mankind would still have to do work, because someone had to 'work and take care of the garden' (Gen 2:5,15). I think this sounds a bit different from the typical assertion that the 'age to come' will be a painless world.

God bless!

-Jason

Another favorite:

Phillippians 2:19
"But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state."

Ed, are you expecting Timothy's soon arrival?

Paul is sending him to YOU shortly right?

If not, What is it doing in your Bible?
Do you Ed have any use for this passage today?

No?

What good is it then?......Right?

Parousia or Hoonbaba .. have you all seen or know where GW is posting these days ? Haven't seen him around for ever.


thx

15th April 2003 at 06:30 AM Justme said this in Post #182

Hi Ed,

I don't believe the word "we" refers only to Paul or some of those he was writing to. If Jesus CAME in 70 AD and the verse refers ONLY to Paul and the early Christians, what about people of today. How will we meet Jesus in the air? What are we hoping for if Jesus HAD come already?

Click to expand...

Coming from this particular stage, I don't know how to explain this to you actually. Hopefully Par 70 is still around, he can do a much better explanation than I can.

When you are considering that the 'parousia' or the 'coming' is in 70 AD it changes the whole situation as far as how the eternal life comes about. The judgement and the commencement of the eternal life begins at the death of each individual. That process began somewhere in the first century and continues on until the planet no longer sustains life. That is how Paul or some of those he is writing to can be caught up in the air after the'parousia.'. Not only that, but their grandchildren a hundred years later are 'caught up' in the air with the Lord at the time of their personal death as well. Throughout the total history each person experiences two comings of Christ..one from scripture ,one at death.

Now the 'WE' can be read verbatim of the page. Now the prophecy of the Olivet discourse can be read verbatim as it comes off the page, no verse has to be explained away. This second coming of christ occurs at the death of each individual and the process had it's beginning sometime way back then.

That also explains why Rev 14:13 makes sense. Prior to the cross and whatever technicaliiies that followed it, mankind could not qualify for heaven, now because of the sacrifice, Blessed are they who die in the Lord from now on.... and the parousia happens.

I realize that is a really poor explanation. It is difficult starting with a verse like 1 Thess 4 which I usually use to end a conversation with.
Shoot back as many questions as you want and we'll go through them. Seek out any verses you feel will dispute this idea. I have no fear of being proven wrong for two reasons. First, I have found a handful of biblical verses that are clumsy in this interpretation, but none that refute it. If there are verses that prove it wrong, let's find out, theres no use believing the wrong biblical doctrine.

If my interpretation has holes in it there is no use carrying on with it, for you, me or anyone else.

Justme [/B]

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Justme,

Your attitude reflects one who is TRULY seeking the TRUTH. I wish others had the same attitude as you have because you are 100% right. What good is it to believe on something that does NOT lead to eternal life?

The belief that Jesus CAME the SECOND time in 70 AD is FALSE! Before you flare up, allow me to explain in this manner:

Q. Why will Jesus COME the second time?

A. Jesus will appear a SECOND time to SAVE those who eagerly WAIT for his return. "So Christ was sacrificed  once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a SECOND time, not to bear sin, but to BRING salvation to those who are WAITING for him" (Heb. 9:28NIV).

Thus, if Jesus CAME in 70 AD, the SALVATION that he BROUGHT with him was ONLY for those who WAITED eagerly for his SECOND coming.  Preterists who NO LONGER wait for his second coming do NOT benefit from Jesus' second coming. Hence, this belief is FALSE!

Q. What will Jesus' SECOND coming SAVE us from?

A. Jesus' SECOND coming will SAVE us from the WRATH  of God. "But God demonstrates His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we now have been JUSTIFIED by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's WRATH through him" (Rom. 5:8-9 Ibid.).

Q. What is God's WRATH?

A. The WHOLE land SHALL be devoured by the fire of His jealousy. "Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the DAY of the Lord's WRATH; but the WHOLE land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy; for He shall make even a speedy riddance of all that dwell in the land" (Zephaniah 1:18).

You will note that God's WRATH is in the future.

Q. What will happen on the "DAY of the Lord's WRATH?"

A. God will PUNISH with everlasting DESTRUCTION, those who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ. "In flaming FIRE, taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God, and on those who do NOT obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. They shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power" (2 Thes. 1:8-9).

On the "DAY of the Lord's WRATH," all who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ will be burned.

Thus, if Jesus CAME in 70 AD, everyone who DID not know God and DID not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ would have burned. The Bible does NOT teach that there will still be people  who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ AFTER his SECOD coming. That's another reason why this belief is FALSE.

Q. When will the "DAY of the Lord's WRATH" be?

A. The "DAY of the Lord's WRATH is the "DAY of JUDGMENT". "But the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word, reserved for fire until the "DAY of JUDGMENT" and PERDITION of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7).

Q. What will happen to the heavens and the earth on the "DAY of the Lord's WRATH?"

A. The heavens will PASS AWAYand the earth will be burned up." "But the "DAY of the Lord" will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

Q. What happens to those who "die IN Christ" from the day Christ started his ministry UNTIL his SECOND coming?

A. They may rest from their labors and their works follow them" (Rev. 14:13).

Q. What happens to those who "die IN Christ" when Jresus comes again?

A.When Christ comes the SECOND time, those who "died IN Christ" will RESURRECT ahead of those who did NOT "die IN Christ" (1 Thes. 4:16). The rest of the DEAD will not come to life again until the 1000 years is finished (Rev. 20:5).

Q. What happens to those who are ALIVE and "IN  Christ" on the "DAY of the Lord's WRATH?

A. TOGETHER with the RESURRECTED "dead IN Christ" they will be CAUGHT UP in the clouds to MEET Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:17).

From the Bible we learn that the belief that "the second coming of Christ occurs at the death of each individual" is WITHOUT any Biblical basis. Christ's SECOND coming is to BRING salvation from the WRATH of God. - NOT everytime a person dies!

After the SECOND coming of Christ, there will be NOTHING more to hope for.

 Ed

15th April 2003 at 07:12 PM parousia70 said this in Post #184

Yesterday at 09:45 PM edpobre said this in Post ttp://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=785929#post785929">#181



P70,

What heaven are you talking about, the Old Covenant or the New  Covenant?  I thought you said you are already in the New Heavens and the New earth that CAME with the second coming of Christ.

Please clarify what HEAVEN you are HOPING for. Apostle Peter wrote that "according to God's PROMISE, they look for new heavens and a new earth (2 Peter 3:13) with the coming of Christ (2 Peter 3:10).

Ed

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Same heaven for both covenants Ed, it's just that in the Old Covenant, no one was allowed into heaven for atonement had not been achieved.

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Please CLARIFY your belief P70. Earlier, you said that with the coming of Christ, Preterists are ALREADY in the new heavens and new earth. So what heaven are you talking about?

My hope (absolute certainty about the future) is that when I die physically, I will be immediately clothed in my resurrection body, and be caught up together with the dead in Christ who went before me.

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1 Thes. 4:17 teaches that the "DEAD in Christ" and those "ALIVE in Christ" will be caught up TOGETHER to MEET Jesus in the air.

So, how can you, when you die, and the "dead in Christ" who went before you, be caught up TOGETHER to MEET Jesus in the air? Are they waiting for you somewhere?

In your theology Ed, if you died today, you would not go to heaven but to hades to await resurrection. There is no waiting in Biblical Preterism. No waiting for Jesus to accomplish anything. No half fulfilled promises waiting for consumation. It is done. Amazing isn't it? Glory to the one true God who keeps his promises!

Please show me the verse which says that the dead go to heaven IMMEDIATELY.

The "New heavens and earth" on the other hand, is hebraic metaphore for the New Covenant, a new administration. Just as God called the Old Covenant "Heavens and earth" (Isaiah 51:16) So do the prophets of God (Peter, Isaiah, John) call the New Covenant "Heavens and earth".

Hope that helps!

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Isaiaah 51:16 says NOTHING about God "calling the Old Covenant "Heavens and Earth." That shows how sadly you try very hard to TWIST scripture to support your FALSE position.

Ed

 

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15th April 2003 at 07:16 PM parousia70 said this in Post #185

Yesterday at 09:33 PM edpobre said this in Post ttp://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=785904#post785904">#180

And think about it Justme, if this verse refers ONLY to Paul and the other Christians he was writing to, then the rest of the New Testament was NEVER intended for people who were born AFTER 70 AD, right?

Ed

Click to expand...

Joshua 6:3
And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.

Ed, is this verse for you?
It's in your Bible so it must be right?.

Your logic above demands this verse is written as an order TO YOU.

Better start marching!

Click to expand...

P70,

If that's how you think, then Rom. 5:8-9 is NOT for you and neither does Gal. 3:26-29.

And you are not an adopted child of God either becuse apostle Paul NEVER talked to you, right?

Ed

15th April 2003 at 06:56 PM parousia70 said this in Post #183



Only if you disregard the context of the entire passage.
Paul is addressing living, breathing Christians of His day. To deny this is to deny scripture. They expressed concern about their Christian family members and friends who had died. Their concern was that they would miss out ont he resurrection, having died before the 2nd coming. Paul is addressing that concern specifically, reassuring his audience that not only would their dead relatives who died 'in Christ" not miss the resurrection, but they would indfact preceed those who remained alive .
The dead in Christ would rise first, followed at a later time by those still alive at the time the 2nd coming rolled around.

If you had died in Christ, you would rise at the 2nd coming.
If you were alive at the 2nd coming, then sometime after that, you would be caught up together with the dead in Christ who had risin first, to meet Jesus in the air (grk 'aer' meaning spiritual realm, not stratosphere btw)

That is what 1 Thess 4:16-17 LITERALLY means

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P70,

Were you ALIVE when Jesus CAME in 70 AD?

If not, then 1 Thes. 4:16-17 does NOT concern you at all. As a matter of FACT, by your own admission that apostle Paul wa s talking speciically to his fellow Christians in his days, NOTHING in  the NT concerns you and all other Preterists at all.

Ed

15th April 2003 at 11:17 PM parousia70 said this in Post #187

Another favorite:

Phillippians 2:19
"But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state."

Ed, are you expecting Timothy's soon arrival?

Paul is sending him to YOU shortly right?

If not, What is it doing in your Bible?
Do you Ed have any use for this passage today?

No?

What good is it then?......Right?

Click to expand...

P70,

That only shows your lack of undertanding of the Bible. This verse shows that TRUE preachers of the gospel are SENT by the Lord Jesus, just as Timothy was SENT by the Lord Jesus.

Hence, anyone who dares to preach the gospel of Christ MUST be ready and willing to SHOW proof that they are SENT by God or the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE anyone listens to them.

Ed

Today at 05:57 AM edpobre said this in Post #193 That only shows your lack of undertanding of the Bible. This verse shows that TRUE preachers of the gospel are SENT by the Lord Jesus, just as Timothy was SENT by the Lord Jesus.
Hence, anyone who dares to preach the gospel of Christ MUST be ready and willing to SHOW proof that they are SENT by God or the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE anyone listens to them.
Ed

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God's Word, as it applies to us today, is an autobiography of God. It reveals who He is, and how he relates to His creation.

The whole idea of the Bible is God showing the history of how man ruined his relationship with God, and how God was the only one who could rectified that relationship through Christ.

Obviously there are statements in the Bible that apply to one person, apply to several people, and apply to ALL peoples.

The point P70 is making, is that Paul's letters were directed towards a specific group of people.

For example: 1 Corinthians 11:2-5
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head.

This was written to the Corinthians, not us. We can take what is highlighted in green and apply universally. Yet, the red highlight is only applied historically.

The point of this post is to be alert as to how and to whom you apply the specifics of God's Word to.

-A

Yesterday at 09:57 PM edpobre said this in Post #193



P70,

That only shows your lack of undertanding of the Bible. This verse shows that TRUE preachers of the gospel are SENT by the Lord Jesus, just as Timothy was SENT by the Lord Jesus.

Hence, anyone who dares to preach the gospel of Christ MUST be ready and willing to SHOW proof that they are SENT by God or the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE anyone listens to them.

Ed  

 

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Ed, you are absolutely right!

I apologize for my editing error. I do indeed understand that Paul was not sending Timothy, Paul was trusting Jesus to send him.Thank you for pointing this out!

Now, in an effort to get you to actually answer the question instead of erecting another straw man, I'll rephrase.

Ed, Is Paul expressing his trust in this passage that Jesus will send Timothy to YOU shortly?

Are you expecting Timothy's soon arrival?

The Bible says that Paul trusts Jesus to send Timothy to YOU shortly right?

Yesterday at 09:51 PM edpobre said this in Post #192



P70,

Were you ALIVE when Jesus CAME in 70 AD?

If not, then 1 Thes. 4:16-17 does NOT concern you at all. As a matter of FACT, by your own admission that apostle Paul wa s talking speciically to his fellow Christians in his days, NOTHING in  the NT concerns you and all other Preterists at all.

Ed

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Ed, Your ignorance of preterism really prevents you from any sort of lucid refutation.

I recommend you immerse yourself in preterist eschatology before you even attempt to refute it.

It is increasingly difficult and time consuming to debate you and educate you at the same time. Once you choose to learn what preterism actually teaches, then maybe we can have a decent, constructive exchange.

I look forward to such a time.

Hi Edopre,

Q. What is God's WRATH?

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Actually this is in fact where the different opinions come from.

I consider God's wrath to be the Great Tribulation for the following reasons.

Romans 2
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

The Book of Revelation refers to the day of wrath and the tribulation being interchangeable.

Luke refers to wrath in the parallel verse to Matthew.

The great tribulation occurs only once. The great trib is also , at times, referred
to as time of distress, as Daniel says in chapter 12.

At what time will the righteous be raised?
Daniel 12. At the time of distress(trib/wrath)
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life,

when will the others be condemned.

at the same event.

others to shame and everlasting contempt..again from Daniel.

Some would consider that the condemned are raised later, but I see no reason to read that into it . The verse simply says multitudes who sleep in the dust will 'wake up' some will take the high road and some condemned to the low road.

That tribulation takes place just prior to the parousia. ..Olivet discourse.

It is at this time that this particular judgement takes place or this resurrection takes place if you prefer.

A. The "DAY of the Lord's WRATH is the "DAY of JUDGMENT".

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It appears from this that you agree, but then elsewhere you stated that Jesus comes to save us from that wrath. I'm guessing you are talking here about a pre rapture which I don't agree with.

Let's look at the story of the things that occur prior to the parousia.

Throughout Jesus' speach He says to His disciples" you will see wars", you will be persecuted" , you will see the abomination" etc. So as you read this you must see the 'you' He is talking to as representing someone on earth today. This someone on earth today must be the ones who will be saved from the wrath/distress/tribulation. However, look who actually'sees' Jesus coming in Matthew 24. It is 'THEY." The Book of Revelation also shows multitudes in Heaven that came out of the great tribulation. Remeber the 'you' were to flee the city.

So we also disagree about the deaths after the coming. Actually no one can recieve his judgement, good or bad, until after they die.

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

As well there is still Rev 14:13. The last chapter of Rev also places the righteous in the symbolically explained Heaven and others outside with the dogs where the bad continue to do bad and the good keep on doing good.

That is a long story to arrive at the thought that we first have to pin down exactly what God's day of wrath is and I consider it to be the Great Tribulation, biblically speaking.

I can tell you that none of the verses you quoted in your post cause any problem for my interpretation. Naturally you see them as favoring your idea as well.That is because of the mindset we each approach the reading with I assume.

Justme