Beating the Dead Horse: Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

datan said:

go read up on the Stanford Prison Experiments.

Apparently, anyone can lose control when put in that position of power and control.

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The sad state of U.S. prisons has been known for decades. So much so that the common joke when someone speaks of going to prison is about them being sodomized and degraded by fellow prisonors and guards.
This problem is not a few bad apples but is systemic. I am of the opinion that the situation in iraq is not the work of a few bad apples. First, they don't put 18 year old privates in charge of prisons. They are under orders from those who have more experience. This was not some slip up by an inexperienced soldier or two under duress.

"I'm appalled and feel these soldiers deserve a stiff punishment"


And I do mean the stiffest punishment.

jgarden said:

How do you say, "I was just following orders," in German?

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Ich war bloß folgende Ordnungen.

I don't believe in ghosts and stuff like that but I was thinking last night, that prison where all this happened is one of the same ones that Saddam's regime used to torture prisoners. What if that place was evil or had some resident evil that just warps people and turns their hearts to allow them to commit stuff like this? Like so many horrible things have happened there it's just a part of the structure itself?

This is in no way an excuse for what happened....just thinking.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

maybe it's the bad karma or something. maybe evil really does live in those walls.

foolsparade said:

Oh I blame the soldiers and their command. At some point you need to ask yourself "what kind of person am I?" If my commander told me to do those things I would tell him to kiss my *$%!!! Whats more important?; following orders{christian ethic} or being honest with who you are?

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First off I want to say being a Christian and Following orders are two different things.. if an order goes against Biblical principles and GOD - then we are supposed to ignore that order and go up the chain.. Second - the same thing applies to the Military - if an order goes against ethics - moral principles as well as pushing the legal limits then that order is not to BE FOLLOWED, and you will not be punished for it ( AT LEAST NOT IN LONG RUN ).... You may be discplined at the time but will be vindicated when truth comes out.. Its a fine line to follow orders - but when the orders cross the line you do not have to go over that line also... The way I look at it - Being Christian and being honest with yourself go hand in hand....... Good Day and God Bless

datan said:

well, the point is these people were in extreme conditions

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Oh please so extreme conditions are carte blanch to throw away any shred of deceny and morals you might possess. These soldiers were not on the frontline in Fallujah or southern Iraq. How extreme aret he conditions guarding a man in a locked cell. This was not a mob where cooler heads might not prevail. They need to be held accountable for their actions. Period. There is no excuse for how they treated those men, none. And that accountability needs to be extended right up to the top with Donald Rumsfeld and the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Like I said before animosity and emotioanl stress should have been part of the planning in instructiing ALL soldeirs who serve in Iraq. However it seems that the only plan there was, was to invade and everything after that has been reactionary.

why is everyone so surprised? This is war and like someone else said, it's ugly. Oh and another thing, prove that these things happened.....

Nice try Kit Kat... kind of like saying, "prove that anyone ever landed on the moon".

Kit_kat40 said:

why is everyone so surprised? This is war and like someone else said, it's ugly. Oh and another thing, prove that these things happened.....

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There are pictures and testimoney. What type of proof would be enough??

....I was appauled and shocked when I heard the story. These people that did this are a disgrace to America and a disgrace to the uniform they wear!! The should be spending the rest of their natural lives doing hard labor at the Leavenworth Brig!!

Mistyfogg said:

Yah I remember studying that in my psychology class.
I just don't think power can be used as a scapegoat. I just wonder about the part of a person that makes them think that what they are doing is just. When they are in the middle of torture, laughing at pointing fingers and taking pictures, isn't there something in their head saying "what are you doing???" Everyone has a free will, bottom line. I just I am just an eternal humanitarian and I just can't imagine making another person suffer at my hands, whether emotionally or physically, and I sometimes expect that others will feel the same way.

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I agree. I wonder what allows a person who may other wise walk an old lady across the street resort to such brainless sadistic crimes that represents everything that humanity longs to be free of. We are of a higher intelligence than any animal on earth aren't we? I personaly see the reason. This reason often encourge by military apperatus. That is servitude, to lose individual sovereignty, to become fascist in a way. Not to question, to obey! Does this sound familiar?? Christian doctrine perhaps?

The thing is, I spent three years in the army during the first gulf war. And whether the army wants to admit it or not , this is not just a few rouge soldiers. because they don't put 18 year old privates in chrage of prisons. where was the supervision?? One incident , maybe. But many incidents like this. There are more people who know than what are saying. There is more to this story than a few stressed out guys. When i was in, there were classes on the geneva convention given to every soldier and espeacially to those who were going to handle prisinors. I cannot imagine what went through the minds of those who allowed this. What a scandel.

The same thing happened with Canadian soldiers torturing the locals in Sudan. It was just one incident among many lesser ones at the time that had a way of discrediting the entire army in the public's eyes.
Heads have gotta roll.

rahma said:

I can tell you what effect it is having on some people I know. My husband is an Egyptian and yesterday, he was literally sick all day long. It has downgraded his opinion of the American actions in Iraq (which were already pretty low) and he has come to the conclusion that Iraq was better off under Sadaam.

Now, this is not to say that this is a right opinion, but this sentiment is shared by many people I know living in the ME. It's unfortunate that this has happened and I hope that those who perpetrated the act are punished harshly.

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While these acts are intolerable, they by no means are even a glimmer to what Saddam did.
These prisoners would have been tortured for years, with no one caring about it.
Men and woman were tortured continuously in these prisons. The Saddam regime had rape rooms where women were brought for the enjoyment of Saddam's sons.
Saddam killed thousands and used money for oil to build and maintain his palaces. While his people starved and suffered under U.N. sanctions.

We will ensure these people, Soldiers and Saddam will pay for their crimes.
Something Saddam didn't offer. Any opposed to Saddam died or disappeared.

So listen to the Arab news and their slant on the news. We are not perfect, but we punish the offenders. an you say the same of any tyrrant dictator in the region?

I don't think that was the objective of the photos.

I'm indifferent simply because I have come to expect such things out of humans. That it was cruel and deserves punishment goes without saying.

As I was reading through this, I was thinking the same thing. What a travesty for the United States.

JPPT1974 said:

Whoever took those photographs deserves to be applauded and commended for blowing the whistle on those soldiers who did that to those Iraqi prisoners.

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