Prophecy question
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oceanofdreamz
Shoulda Been Born Israeli
- Mar 23, 2004
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Not true! Prophecy is just as live today as it was in Revelation. Prophecy IS important... sometimes you are looking for an answer and asking God to reveil it to you but he gives you a prophecy that he speaks to u from no prophecy IS realduster1az said:
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Man's interpretation of God's inspired Word may very well differ, but Its revelation is no less complete.tulc said:
In Christ,
Tracey
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Ernie,
If the Scriptures are given in order that "the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works," I ask again what would be purpose of new revelation?
In Christ,
Tracey
If the Scriptures are given in order that "the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works," I ask again what would be purpose of new revelation?
In Christ,
Tracey
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Dad Ernie
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First, you keep missing the point. Please show the scriptures you use to determine that prophecy has ceased.duster1az said:
It is pretty certain that the book of Revelation was written last, so that means that when Paul wrote those words, it was long before Revelation, do you not think they also applied to John the Revelator?
There is one thing I am certain of, which you might have in view here. We are neither to add nor take away from what is ALREADY written. So where does that leave "prophecy"? Well, you may want to consider:
1 Cor 14:27-29 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
As I have pointed out, "the testimony of Jesus Christ IS the spirit of prophecy". It need not be something new and foreign to the church, in fact, when a prophecy IS given in the body, then it should be tested against the Word of God to ensure that what was prophecied conforms with the consistent principles of the Gospel and other scriptures.
A "word" I received from the Lord once was in regards to a particular church. All I heard was "The axe is at the root." But I did understand it and this is the verse that confirmed "this prophecy" to me:
Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
So nothing was added or taken away from the scriptures, but it most definately was a "word of prophecy" against that church.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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Ebb
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By accepting new prophets, don't you set yourself for all sorts of false teachings and cults? Don't you set yourself up for the Jim Jones and David Koreshes of the world and the Heavens Gate cult who were seeking a comet? Can you name any true prophets today, and can you prove they are true prophets?
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Ebb said:
In a word to the first question, No. You see, the prophets were like shepherds that guided the people of God when they were going astray. They warned them of impending judgment if the people didn't repent and change their ways. Why would prophets today be any different? And you can judge what they say by the word of God. It must be in agreement with the word, or you can discard it as unreliable.
I have personally met prophets today that operate in the biblical interpretation of prophecy, but i doubt that you would know their name. They are ordinary people, such as you and i, but when they prophesied to the church, their prophecy came true. I personally don't know of any 'big name evangelists' that i could classify as prophets, with possibly the exception of David Wilkerson, of Times Square Church in New York.
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I don't consider your personal experience to be prophecy Ernie. The Spirit gives all believers the ability to discern to a certain extent. The more we are adjusted to the Spirit that indwells, the more likely we are to pick up on such things. There doesn't seem to have been any new revelation given to you; only how to apply the principles of God's Word in you life. Just because you term that prophecy doesn't make it so.Dad Ernie said:
In Christ,
Tracey
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Dad Ernie
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Greetings Duster...duster1az said:
My experience doesn't account for nothing, it is strictly anecdotal. Were you aware there is a difference between "foretelling", and "forthtelling"? Foretelling is what John the Revelator did. Forthtelling is what the two witnesses do in chapter 11 of Revelation. A prophet may do one or both, but I weigh a prophet by (1) his Christ like walk and (2) whether it conforms to the principles of scripture and (3) whether it comes true or not and (4) a true prophet of the Lord moves in "power" and often has miraculous events about him/her.
But you again miss my suggestion. Where are the scriptures which support your contention? Please don't believe me, but DO believe the Word of God.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
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I've given you Scripture that you don't accept. When looked at in the light of God's purpose for the miraculous and its history I don't believe there's a possibility of anyone possessing the prophetic gift in this age anymore than someone writing inspired books to be added to the canon. I do believe there are men with a divine abiltity to "forthtell" today, but their ministry, IMO, is to clearly proclaim that which has already been revealed in God's Word; much like a teacher. If you wish to believe that men still have the abiltiy to impart new revelation ... then do so. I'll choose to do my best, with the Spirit's guidance, to rightly divide God's Word.Dad Ernie said:
I've enjoyed the conversation.
In Christ,
Tracey
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NumberOneSon
The poster formerly known as Acts6:5
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1.) I see no biblical reason why someone with the gift of prophecy would have to speak in tongues. The Bible doesn't say it is mandatory for a prophet to do so.Godschosengirl said:
2.) I wouldn't think so. God's gifts are given however He sees fit, and everyone is gifted differently. Paul even confirms this (1Cor. 12:30).
Hope that helps.
In Christ,
Acts6:5
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NumberOneSon
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i'll be on the "prophesy" has ceased side. 
There are MANY verses in scripture which show this.
The point in Ephesians was we today are being built upon THE FOUNDATION of the "apostles and prophets". That was the purpose of these offices, to lay the foundation.
But, wait, theres more:
Peter uses the most extreme case here. There is a more sure way than hearing God's voice from heaven?
It's also important to look at WHO those gifts were promised TOO and for what purpose.
Gentiles were brought in to "share" Israels spiritual things, they were never given their own "things"...See Romans chapter 11...
When Israel was finally "cast-off", those "spiritual things" were cast off with them and ceased.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/tongues.htm
Awaiting gun-fire.
There are MANY verses in scripture which show this.
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
I suppose anyone believing in prophesy also HAS to believe there are still apostles running around (and not the ones of the missionary kind).The point in Ephesians was we today are being built upon THE FOUNDATION of the "apostles and prophets". That was the purpose of these offices, to lay the foundation.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
There is only ONE foundation for the "building". And it is built.1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 13:8-13 KJV
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(8) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
(9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
(12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
(13) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
So when did God reveal to Paul his entire plan? At the point when he wrote 1 Cor., he knew IN PART and the prophesying was IN PART. Meaning, He was prophesying based on what God had already told HIM, not what God would reveal to him
BUT Paul knew, God would one day reveal to him His hidden purpose for this age. See the accounts of Paul's conversion in Acts, there are THREE different views of those things God did/was revealing/will someday revealed to Paul.
Vs 9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [Paul states he was prophesying in PART, because he did not know Gods entire plan.]
vs10: But when that which is perfect is come [when God reveals the entire knowledge of His perfect plan (the perfect way to prophesy)], then that which is in part shall be done away [prophesying will be made whole].
vs11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child [just doing what your Father tells you too (no knowledge required)]: but when I became a man, I put away childish things [out of the house with full knowledge to live on your own].
vs12: For now we see through a glass, darkly [not knowing the full plan of God, the outcome can not be seen]; but then face to face: now I know in part [he knows in and prophesies in part]; but then shall I know even as also I am known [it will all make perfect sense]..
vs 8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Now the word perfect in verse 10 stumps a lot of people. Some say that Christ is the perfect (and indeed He is). But, why would we need to be told that when Christ comes back, the gifts of tongues, knowledge and prophecy would cease? They were all being used to minister the gospel right? To, its obvious when the gospel returns that those sign gifts would no longer be required. Again, one thing we CAN be sure of... they will cease.
The word PERFECT here is in the neuter gender. Which means its referring to a THING, not a person or a Deity. If Paul were referring to Christ it would be in the masculine gender. The greek work rendered perfect means:
1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. perfect
4. that which is perfect
a. consummate human integrity and virtue
b. of men
1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature
So you see,, Paul knew God had a plan,,, he just didn't know what the entire plan was. But tt was given to him to fulfill the word of God.
Vs 9: For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [Paul states he was prophesying in PART, because he did not know Gods entire plan.]
vs10: But when that which is perfect is come [when God reveals the entire knowledge of His perfect plan (the perfect way to prophesy)], then that which is in part shall be done away [prophesying will be made whole].
vs11: When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child [just doing what your Father tells you too (no knowledge required)]: but when I became a man, I put away childish things [out of the house with full knowledge to live on your own].
vs12: For now we see through a glass, darkly [not knowing the full plan of God, the outcome can not be seen]; but then face to face: now I know in part [he knows in and prophesies in part]; but then shall I know even as also I am known [it will all make perfect sense]..
vs 8: Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Now the word perfect in verse 10 stumps a lot of people. Some say that Christ is the perfect (and indeed He is). But, why would we need to be told that when Christ comes back, the gifts of tongues, knowledge and prophecy would cease? They were all being used to minister the gospel right? To, its obvious when the gospel returns that those sign gifts would no longer be required. Again, one thing we CAN be sure of... they will cease.
The word PERFECT here is in the neuter gender. Which means its referring to a THING, not a person or a Deity. If Paul were referring to Christ it would be in the masculine gender. The greek work rendered perfect means:
1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. perfect
4. that which is perfect
a. consummate human integrity and virtue
b. of men
1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature
So you see,, Paul knew God had a plan,,, he just didn't know what the entire plan was. But tt was given to him to fulfill the word of God.
Col 1:25
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
KJV
So you see. We have all we need today. The Word of God. Nothing is left to be revealed. We can only be enlightened to its meaning. This does NOT require a prophet,see Ephesians 1. It requires PRAYER.25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
KJV
But, wait, theres more:
2Pe 1:17-21 KJV
(17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Peter uses the most extreme case here. There is a more sure way than hearing God's voice from heaven?
It's also important to look at WHO those gifts were promised TOO and for what purpose.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
Gentiles were brought in to "share" Israels spiritual things, they were never given their own "things"...See Romans chapter 11...
When Israel was finally "cast-off", those "spiritual things" were cast off with them and ceased.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/tongues.htm
Awaiting gun-fire.
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Dad Ernie
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Greetings Duster,duster1az said:
Well @@Paul@@ gave a much better response than you, but even he is wrong. He quotes Paul and Peter who wrote their books before John. Wasn't John listening to them when he wrote the book of Revelation?
Where you and he err is trying to define the word "perfect". Of course it would be of a "neuter gender" because it is referring to a "condition", a "thing", and not a person.
There shall be a day on this earth WHEN the "perfect" has come and THAT is "our destiny", to be made "perfect in Christ". So AGAIN, I reiterate, it has NOTHING to do with the completion, as we now have it, of the Bible. Even @@Paul@@ has not given even one verse that proves such is the case.
Blessings,
Dad Ernie
P.S. Did you know that at one time Daniel was told "seal up the prophecy". Did you also know that John was told the same thing at the time of the 7 thunders? Guess what? God tells us plainly:
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Don't you think that even now, as well as in the days of the 7 thunders, that God is revealing His actions to His prophets?
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Dad Ernie said:
And if I may be so bold. Where you err is simply reading into the scriptures based on what you believe.
There is no one alive today raising the dead, or drinking deadly poison, or being "transported" to other cities, there are no "healers" today or any prophets.
You need to leave 1 Corinthians in it's context... It's simply referring to prophesy, not the one-day perfect condition of man. Perfect = the perfect way to prophesy.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
In other words, when the perfect way to prophesy has come, we will no longer need to prophesy in part.
Plus you assume John's Revelation after the writings of Paul and Peter. There is just as much information out there which PROVES John wrote Revelation, and the other books BEFORE 70ad (probably around 48ad) as there is to prove after 70ad... no one knows.. So what does the bible say?
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy;
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Joh 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
John at least wrote his gospel prior to 70ad, because the "sheep gate" in the temple wall by the pool of Bethesda could not have been there after 70ad... The entire temple was destroyed except for the west wall.Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
I do not think "shortly" is +2000 years. What happened?
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
It's mans failure to understand the eternal purpose of God which has lead to this confusion in this area.
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Dad Ernie said:
No. When God picks up His plan, he may reveal "His actions".
As the end of days is described as:
Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
Gen 49:2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
Israel is NOT gather together, as far as i know they are still cast off.
What does having the light of life have to do with God speaking to us?
Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Amo 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
This is only refering to the warning Israel of danger, Since Israel is not "gathered together", i see no need YET for a warning of any kind.
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