Beating the Dead Horse: Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

This is the first I've heard about female prisoners.

I'm appalled and feel these soldiers deserve a stiff punishment:
For all instances of physical torture and sexual abuse.

I'm indifferent:
About using psychological interrogation methods (mind games, humiliation, etc) to extract information that may save American lives, but only during iterrogation, not for punishment or at the whim of the guards.

I have to say, I don't know why this is so shocking to people... I mean surprising. Do we really believe that we are civilized? We aren't any more civilized than people in Iraq, Congo or Indonesia... we just like to think that we are. This happens all the time. I guarantee you that there are more examples of this in Iraq that simply haven't made the news. Look what some people from MY military did in Somalia.http://www.newsworld.cbc.ca/flashback/1996/somalia2.html.

The army teaches people to dehumanize the "other". It's much easier to torture an "animal" than it is a human being. Clearly there are wonderful men and women who serve in the military but some are corrupted by it and this sort of story is the result.

Peace.

JD

This story story saddens me because of how people act. I am appalled to be part of the human race sometimes. I really wonder what was going through those soldiers heads. What part of them made them feel like this was fun or justified to torture another human being. Some military members are brainwashed and lose sight of the mission, that we are there to help the Iraqi's.

I can tell you what effect it is having on some people I know. My husband is an Egyptian and yesterday, he was literally sick all day long. It has downgraded his opinion of the American actions in Iraq (which were already pretty low) and he has come to the conclusion that Iraq was better off under Sadaam.

Now, this is not to say that this is a right opinion, but this sentiment is shared by many people I know living in the ME. It's unfortunate that this has happened and I hope that those who perpetrated the act are punished harshly.

war is ugly. It's not a game in the park.

I can't say I'm surprised that such things happened; I'm more surprised that people were dumb enough to take photos and videos.

I'm glad someone took the photos, the truth needs to be told

Mistyfogg said:

This story story saddens me because of how people act. I am appalled to be part of the human race sometimes. I really wonder what was going through those soldiers heads. What part of them made them feel like this was fun or justified to torture another human being. Some military members are brainwashed and lose sight of the mission, that we are there to help the Iraqi's.

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go read up on the Stanford Prison Experiments.

Apparently, anyone can lose control when put in that position of power and control.

We are all responsible for whatever degradation has come the way of Iraqi detainees (who remember, under rule of law, are innocent, until proven quilty by due legal process): because we allowed an occupation enterprise, whose general qualities were such; that these outcomes were predictable.
Yes we failed the people of Iraq in this: but yes, we also failed those who came to commit these crimes; because we put them in circumstances, where they were directed, or where we failed to sufficiently support them in being better people.
People do such things, if the circumstances of direction, or the dearth of proper support, fall in the right way.
This is why war of the type we waged, is always wrong: because the circumstance and machinery of such war, are always going to produce such outcome.

look, I don't blame the soldiers for what they did. Sure, it's dastardly and all that, but ultimately, you have to have to look at why they were put in that position.

Those who have never fought in a war have no business starting one.

Every major power which has fought in a war in the last 50 years has been guilty of dirty tactics--Britain (some earlier cases in Iraq), US, France (Algeria) etc.

The question to me is not that such things happen, but why were the soldiers put in that position in the first place?

I gotta agree with 27. The sexual acts and ****, that's plain innexcusable. But the humilation and mind games, that's crosses no line. War is not a 'humane' thing, but it's our job to keep it as 'humane' as possible.

On a side-note, did ya'll hear about this commander that scared a prisioner by shooting his gun off near him to extract info on an ambush that saved several American lives. He was faced with either a court marshal and a possible 8 years in prison, or a dishonourable discharge and no military benifits, after 20 years of service. They jump all over him for doing something within his bounds, but allow this to continue. Our military is run by idiots.

datan said:

look, I don't blame the soldiers for what they did. Sure, it's dastardly and all that, but ultimately, you have to have to look at why they were put in that position.

Those who have never fought in a war have no business starting one.

Every major power which has fought in a war in the last 50 years has been guilty of dirty tactics--Britain (some earlier cases in Iraq), US, France (Algeria) etc.

The question to me is not that such things happen, but why were the soldiers put in that position in the first place?

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Oh I blame the soldiers and their command. At some point you need to ask yourself "what kind of person am I?" If my commander told me to do those things I would tell him to kiss my *$%!!! Whats more important?; following orders{christian ethic} or being honest with who you are?

On a side-note, did ya'll hear about this commander that scared a prisioner by shooting his gun off near him to extract info on an ambush that saved several American lives. He was faced with either a court marshal and a possible 8 years in prison, or a dishonourable discharge and no military benifits, after 20 years of service. They jump all over him for doing something within his bounds, but allow this to continue.

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I got to agree with you a bit here. Yes I'm all for protecting the innocent and the vulnerable: but, to take away a lifetime of service, for an error, that though terriblle in possible consequence, is made in very human manner; always disturbs me very much.
I think therecan too often be an humanly unreflective aspect, to what we Brits cal "political correctness": the balance struck, is often just inhumane; morality on tram lines.

I am not surprised either but I am appalled and all of this stuff about it happens is just BS. That is exactly why this should not have happened, because it does happen under stress. Considering where we are and the extremely shaky ground that we invaded that country under the military right up to Donald Rumsfeld should have made damn sure that things like this did not happen. There is no cleanup or damage control in the minds now of people who already hated us.

The Admin has set the tone from beginning with the Guantanoma Bay prisoners regarding the treatment of prisoners/detainees in the war on terror. Setting themselves up for a fall with the "they don't fall under the Geneva Conventions" some of these people were not even combatants they were just being interviewed.

I am with Senator Biden when he said that even if they don't fall under the Geneva converntion ( which in my eyes is hogwash) they fall under the human rights treaties we have signed with the UN. If we are there on the moral high ground as our president likes to purport then we had better make darn sure that everything, everything is on the up and up. The world, espcially the Muslim world was just waiting and watching for this sort of thing. And for us, the citizens to say, it should have been expected well, if we know that what the hell is the Administration thinking about!!!

Rant off

Oh no, Ex, ther was no error on his part. This prisioner was masquerading as a Iraqi cop, but got busted. Under the Geneva Conventions, he was an enemy spy, and the commander would have been within his rights to take him out and put 2 in his head. Instead he just put some fear into him, and saved several lives as a result. And the military punished him. Is that what we want to teach our soldiers? That being nice, and PC is better than saving another person's life?

How do you say, "I was just following orders," in German?

datan said:

go read up on the Stanford Prison Experiments.

Apparently, anyone can lose control when put in that position of power and control.

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Yah I remember studying that in my psychology class.
I just don't think power can be used as a scapegoat. I just wonder about the part of a person that makes them think that what they are doing is just. When they are in the middle of torture, laughing at pointing fingers and taking pictures, isn't there something in their head saying "what are you doing???" Everyone has a free will, bottom line. I just I am just an eternal humanitarian and I just can't imagine making another person suffer at my hands, whether emotionally or physically, and I sometimes expect that others will feel the same way.

well, the point is these people were in extreme conditions away from normal social conventions. First off, they were in a war. Second these Iraqi prisoners were the ones [maybe not the specific ones but the general ones] who had been blowing their buddies to bits. thirdly the prison was shelled regularly, which was pretty stressful to the guards. since you study psychology you must have studied how Hitler managed to get away with killing millions of Jews without the Germans protesting--you first start by de-humanising an entire class of people. Once you see them as subhumans, it's easy to not relate to them and objectify them.

A good book that talks about the breakdown of human behaviour when separate from social norms and conventions is "Lord of the Flies" by William Golding. If you haven't read about it, it's an excellent book.

I voted stiff punishment for the soldiers, but think it should be even stiffer for the Military Intelligence officers who ordered it. I would like to believe I would take a stand in this situation and suffer the consequences for insurbordination

As a Christian, I may disagree theologically with those of other faiths-- particularly extremists, but individuals regardless of their faith or even their crimes are human beings deserving fair treatment. ..."Vengence is mine saith the Lord."

I'm greatly disturbed that the prisoners tortured now have the viewpoint that Americans, whom they probably associate with Christianity, behave this way. My hope for the war in Iraq was that a democracy could be formed there, but with this type behavior occuring, the Iraqis and the arab world are certain to be disinclined to support even well intentioned US involvement in the area. I certainly would be skeptical of the US at this point.

I would hope that if ever faced with these commands, I would protest, refuse to carry out the orders and suffer the consequencs.