OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Oh I'm sorry you are NOT reading again. I believe that I qualified my question by specifiying, "Your own private religion, is not supported by any church history whatsoever. You blew off the church fathers when I referred to them."Today at 12:57 AM Justme said this in Post #14
I'll just copy a bit from Harkness who taught theology for 12 years in the U.S.
Quote: Some theologians today prefer not to use the term "immortality" when they speak of the future life, lest the Greek idea of the natural immortality of the soul be suggested by it. But if "resurrection" is substituted as a better biblical word, we must be careful not to assume a resuscitation of these same bodies in which our spirits now are housed. When these die, we are finished with them.unquote:
Let's see now.... you said no history what so ever and here we have a direct quote from ..... Dear forum do you see anything a bit wrong here in OS's reply???????
But yes I will concede you can find the writings of some 19th and 20th century, so-called, Theologians, such as Harkness, who teach things not accepted by mainline evangelical Christianity. Note, how your own quote doesn't say it is widespread but "some theologians." But once again I stress my point, the early church did NOT teach or believe the views you present. This is particularly important when we read the writings of people like Ignatius and Polycarp, disciples of John, and Irenaeus a disciple of Ignatius.
How about Paul, in Thessalonians. I'm not sure but I think the phrase "caught up" is "rapture" in Latin.Isn't that funny, I believe the same thing. Just read the above quote as if I had wrote it to you. Like when did this talk about a rapture start anyway?
1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Harkness and a few? Well as I said the early church did NOT teach it.Let's see, first that quote from Harkness agrees with me and I think I mentioned I don't personally know of anybody who I would call a doomsdayer except one old JW.. So there are a few that understands it like I do. The second coming being at the personal death idea.
How does this prove anything about Jesus being a spirit? There were times before His crucifixion, when He was not visible to those around Him, e.g. John 8:59. And immediately after His resurrection He told His disciples "A spirit does not HAVE flesh and bone as you see me HAVE." Nothing in Act 10:40 or the passages referenced say anything about Jesus being only a spirit.I think He manifested to that form when He met with Thomas, but you still have to fit this in.
Acts 10:40 " God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
- Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Robertson Word Pictures in the New Testament, Act 10:40
Gave him to be made manifest (edwken auton empanh genesqai). Peculiar phrase, here only in the N.T. and in Romans 10:20 (quoted from Isaiah 65:1). Empanh, predicate accusative after infinitive genesqai agreeing with auton object of edwken.
- 1096 givnomai ghin-om-ahee
1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a. of events
3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a. of men appearing in public
4. to be made, finished
a. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5. to become, be made
Robertson, Romans 10:20
Is very bold (apotolmai). Present active indicative of apotolmaw, old word, to assume boldness (apo, off) and only here in N.T. Isaiah "breaks out boldly" (Gifford). Paul cites Isaiah 65:1 in support of his own courage against the prejudice of the Jews. See Romans 9:30-33 for illustration of this point.
I was found (eurethn). First aorist passive indicative of euriskw.
Isaiah 65:1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask {for Me;} I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name.
So fit it in for me OS. Jesus was not made visible to all the people only certain ones. Were you mentioned in the group of "certain ones"?
If not where in the bible does it tell us that Jesus now is made visible to other LIVING people?- 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I already have I know where the bible tells us He meets with some DEAD people. Come to think of it I've been around people when they died and never saw Jesus come to deliver the judgement, how could that be considering John 11:25,26???????- John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
So where is Jesus now?
Are His flesh and bones VISIBLE now?
When Jesus gives that judgement to the DEAD is He visible to the LIVING or not?
Do you teach that the angels of Heaven have flesh and bones?
Justme
I can't see any of my family either althjough they are very much alive, I happen to live and work in another country
Stephen, at his stoning, was privileged to behold Jesus with the father. I haven't yet been given that privilege. But John said, We will see Jesus. In Matt 25:31ff, Jesus said He would be seated on His throne and all nations would be gathered before Him. He will speak to them and they to Him. Do you have any more "proof texts" to throw at me? - 1096 givnomai ghin-om-ahee
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