My claim was that the combined info on Judgment that we have in Dan 7 and Rom 2 DOES in fact show that very Judgment process ans quoted in the texts above.
Only by ignoring the two section , the two texts in this very basic part of the topic can we argue that part 2 does not exist because it is not also spelled out in part 1.
Bob, I didn't ignore them. I responded back in post 22.
But now I will respond again:\ so you can address it.
Romans 2:2-16
2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (NKJV)
Once again, this is not the Adventist IJ. As is shown by:
- The scope-It includes everyone who does evil or good. Not so the IJ. The only cases considered there are those of the "professed people of God".
So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. The judgment of the wicked is a distinct and separate work, and takes place at a later period. (The Great Controversy, 480)
- It includes the rewards, which you don't receive at the Adventist IJ.. In fact you don't even know when your case comes up for review or when it is finished:
The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state—men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. GC, chapter 28
Moreover it refers to the day when God will judge the secrets of men. That is not prior to the second coming, but plainly said to be AT Jesus coming. We are not to judge before the time when He comes:
1Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time,
before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.
We are not to pronounce judgment before the time, before He comes. When He comes He will bring to light hidden things and disclose the purposes of the heart. This is plain as can be, you and did not address it.
It also includes receiving the reward.
And likewise you ignore these other texts that say when the judgment will occur
Matthew 25 speaks of judgment before the throne when Jesus comes:
Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Here all are brought before His throne, some object, but He points to their record. This is a direct reference to the throne of judgment, and it is in person, not like the Adventist IJ. It is at His coming. All things are revealed, there is investigation, but it happens before the Lord.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
This does not refer to the Adventist IJ. In the Adventist IJ, per Ellen White, you won't be objecting, because you won't know when your case comes up.
The parable of the talents is another example of investigation, appearing, receiving reward, and it happens after Jesus comes.
Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
The Lord returns after a long time, and settles accounts. This is happening on earth, after the second coming.
Matthew 25:20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The servants appear before Him. They give an account of their stewardship of the talents He gave. He rewards those who were faithful. This judgment happens after the second coming. And they are present before Him and He asks for an account.
These are all plain texts that speak of individual judgment, deciding of cases, revealing the secret things, etc. and they are all after Jesus' coming.
Meanwhile you argue that Daniel 7 is describing the Adventist IJ.
But it is not.
As noted above the Adventist IJ is only on the professed people of God. But the judgment in Daniel 7 is on beast powers, Babylon, Medes and Persians, Greece, and fourth beast and the little horn.
That doesn't match the criteria. Babylonians and Medes and Persians were not all professed followers of God.
Daniel 7:11-12
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. (NKJV)
Moreover, it is not describing a judgment to figure out who the saints are. That was never in question. They are the ones the horn is making war against. They were the ones it was prevailing against. Until the Ancient of Days came, And then judgment was made in favor of the saints. Note it doesn't say "and then we figured out who the saints were through individual review. No it says God ruled in the favor of His saints, who were already a known group being persecuted.
Daniel 7:21-27
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
Note Bob, the saints were being persecuted by him and given into his hand already, before the court was seated. They were already known to be saints. That wasn't what the judgment was figuring out.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
Judment was made in favor of the saints and against the little horn. The little horn's dominion was taken away and was consumed and destroyed.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’ (NKJV)
This judgment ends with the saints inheriting the kingdom.
None of that matches the Adventist IJ. The saints don't inherit in the IJ. They don't even know when their case is reviewed.
The beast and little horn are not destroyed in the Adventist IJ.
And the dominion of Babylon, Medes and Persians and Greece are not taken away at the Adventist IJ.
Moreover, you didn't respond to Jesus' interpretation of this passage when He speaks of the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven in His glory and sitting on His throne. It happens at His coming:
Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
And you have not responded to the actual descriptions of judgment before God's throne which show we are present and interact:
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 (NKJV)
This is not speaking of the Adventist concept of the investigative judgment. Because in the Adventist concept, you won't know your case has even come up, you are not present, you don't take actions.
But here
- We will stand before the judgment seat
- we kneel,
- bow
- confess
- give an account
Paul includes himself,and addresses believers, so this is a judgment that includes believrs. But they are not absent, as in the Adventist IJ, and they are not unaware it is happening.
2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. (NKJV)
This also is not the Adventist IJ.
We
appear before the judgment seat of Christ
we RECEIVE according to what we have done.
That again is not the Adventist IJ, where we do not actually appear, or receive our reward.
