Brightfame52
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Imputed Righteousness. The True & The False.
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fhansen
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Sure, as long as we know what belief means, which is engraftation into the Vine, union with God, a state inseparable from becoming holy lest we take the passage to mean that one is somehow immune from condemnation for all future sins no matter how egregious just because they claim to believe a couple of factoids about Jesus Christ.
A changed life with good fruit in evidence is the best testimony to ourselves and others that we really are His. To remain in sin, and perhaps proud of our constant acknowledgement of it without the overcoming of it would be to mock God and crucify Christ all over again after all He did to not only bring forgiveness of sin but also the power, the grace, to overcome it.
The gospel/new covenant is not about some kind of reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous and live accordingly, but is finally the authentic means of achieving that very thing, by the Spirit that gives life, not by the Letter which can only kill.
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Brightfame52
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fhansen
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God wants man to be exalted; that's the nature of love. Man's problem was/is in not knowing and valuing or appreciating that love, His love, at least not until "the fullness of time" had come, where Jesus defintively showed that love, so deep and wide and vast that it can hardly be described-and just barely known. That's who God is-and that's who He wants us to become to the greatest extent possible. It begins here, with faith... In that, coming to love as He does, is our purpose, our justice, our holiness, our wholeness, our salvation. That's why we need to know Him, first of all, so that, in knowing Him we may believe in, hope in, and most importantly, love Him.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
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fhansen
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God loves man's obedience, beginning with the obedience of faith, as opposed to Adam's disobedience, because that obedience is optional, never forced upon us, even as it's the very best thing for us.
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Brightfame52
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You doing a great Job because you dont exalt Christ and His Obedience at all.
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Brightfame52
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Scripture emphasizes Christs obedience as it opposed Adams disobedience Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
See how you prioritze mans obedience over and above Christs obedience ? Its like you worship man
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We cannot be sure until we are judged if we are truly one of God's own. It is presumptuous to believe that we cannot fall away from grace.
1 Corinthians 4:3-5a
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.
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Lost Witness
Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")
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fhansen
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Yes! They will be made righteous, i.e. obedient, too! Just as they were made unrighteous, disobedient, by Adam's disobedience. And with that empowerment comes responsibility:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation [we are debtors]—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14
God isn't interested in Christian automatons.
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Brightfame52
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Okay so the emphasis is on what the obedience of Christ accomplished. So now did Christ obey for all mankind ?
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fhansen
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You apparently aren't paying attemtion then since its been emphasized that none of man's justification/salvation is even possible without Him and His revelation and sacrifice. Again, "Apart from me you can do nothing." Here Jesus was referring specifically to the production of good fruit but it's also true for everything, including our very existence.
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"Salvation by our righteous works alone" is not what I am writing about.
God's grace saves us. We cannot save ourselves merely by doing righteous works, but we can condemn ourselves by committing a grievous sin and dying without repenting of it.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
If a person does not obey Jesus Christ's commandments, he does not believe in him.
Matthew 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.
We celebrate the love of Jesus Christ in our churches. He loved us so much that he died as a perfect sin offering for Adam's sin and our sins. His sacrificial death has made it possible for us to enter eternal life after we die. If he had not died for us as a sin offering for our sins, then after our deaths, we would remain in Hades, which is "under the earth," for eternity.
The "curse of the law" refers to the curses in the "Law of Moses."
Christians are not under the law of Moses.
Christians are under the Law of Christ.
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1 Corinthians 15:33-34
Do not be deceived:
“Bad company ruins good morals.”
34 Come to a sober and right mind, and sin no more; for some people have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.
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Brightfame52
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Now you make no sense. If Christ obeyed for all mankind, and His obedience makes them He obeyed for righteous and obedient, how come all mankind isn't saved and obedient ? Are you a universalist ?
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Brightfame52
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Possible, what you mean by that ? Are you saying His obedience unto death merely made mans salvation/justification possible ?
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fhansen
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Yes, because it means reconciliation with God. That's why Jesus came. And this reconciliation isn't a merely legal status as a sort of side aspect to justifcation but it is our justifaction because it means the personal, direct communion between man and God that man was made for and is lost without, the relationship between Creator and created that Adam forfeited. Now, if I take that relationship seriously, I will enter into it. If I continue to take it seriuosly I will remain in it, increasingly doing His will, or returning to that in true repentance if I were to seriously stray.
IOW, salvation is all about nearness to God. Those who remain near will produce good fruit, persevering to the end, proving themselves to be good soil. Others may stay for awhile, even producing some good fruit but later letting the cares or attractions of the world drown out and kill that relationship. Others yet won't bother answering His call at all.
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