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The two witnesses

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Spiritual Jew

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Douggg said:
Hi William,

We know Matthew 24:31 has not taken place yet.

As far as who the elect are in verse 31, they are Jews, i.e. the children of Israel, that will be gathered from around the world to the land of Israel. The Jews (Judaism) call that gathering "the final redemption", information to you in case you hear a Jew talking about it.
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This says it all about you. You are relying on antichrist Jews whose false religion is Judaism to tell you how to understand scripture.

The elect are those of us who are in the church, as scripture makes very clear.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
 
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Douggg said:
Please get familiar with those verses I referenced, if you aren't already. And educate others. Some people mistakenly think that Matthew 24:31 is talking about the rapture, but it is not.
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It is.

But you are a pre-tribber, so you can't accept that. Hope we'll find out before too long.
 
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Douggg said:
Jesus did not return in the first century in the manner described in Matthew 24:30.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:15-31 is still future.
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Thank you for sharing your views. :)
 
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WilliamLhk said:
So they saw Him, and none of them present ever reported it?

Which elect then did these angels gather?
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No, they didn't see him. Jesus won't physically return to earth until the last day. John 6:40

From Jesus Christ's throne in heaven he meted out his wrath upon the unbelieving Jews who rejected him as their Messiah. He empowered the Roman armies to destroy them. Matthew 3:7

Jesus tells the wicked Jews exactly how he will destroy them:

Luke 19:41-44
As he came near and saw the city, he wept over it, 42 saying, “If you, even you, had only recognized on this day the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 Indeed, the days will come upon you, when your enemies will set up ramparts around you and surround you, and hem you in on every side. 44 They will crush you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave within you one stone upon another; because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

The Christian martyrs' spirits, the "elect" apostles and disciples, entered eternal life after their deaths.

The following scripture passage is apocalyptic language, not literal, and it depicts Jesus Christ coming in judgment upon the unbelieving Jews in a cosmos-shattering manner.

Mark 13:24-27
But in those days, after that suffering,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light,
25 and the stars will be falling from heaven,
and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
 
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WilliamLhk said:
But you are a pre-tribber, so you can't accept that. Hope we'll find out before too long.
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I believe that the resurrection/rapture could take place pre-70th week, but I am not dogmatic that it must.

My resurrection/rapture view is that it will take anytime from right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have acchieved God-hood.


rapture timing chart b.jpg
 
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Jan001 said:
No, they didn't see him. Jesus won't physically return to earth until the last day. John 6:40
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"Every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7) means exactly that.

The last day is the Day/period of the Lord's return with Judgment, not a 24-hour day.

Isa 2:1 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:2 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
Isa 3:7 In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.
Isa 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,
Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
 
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WilliamLhk said:
"Every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7) means exactly that.

The last day is the Day/period of the Lord's return with Judgment, not a 24-hour day.

Isa 2:1 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:2 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
Isa 3:7 In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.
Isa 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,
Isa 4:1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
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Thank you for sharing your opinion. :)
 
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Jan001 said:
No, they didn't see him. Jesus won't physically return to earth until the last day. John 6:40

From Jesus Christ's throne in heaven he meted out his wrath upon the unbelieving Jews who rejected him as their Messiah. He empowered the Roman armies to destroy them. Matthew 3:7
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That was the wrath of God the Father, not the wrath of Jesus.

Matthew 22:2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Notice how Jesus differentiated between the king, who represents God the Father, and the king's son, who obviously represents Jesus. In verse 7 it indicates that the king, representing God the Father, "sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.". What happened in 70 AD was God the Father's wrath and was not a coming of Christ in any sense.
 
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Spiritual Jew said:
That was the wrath of God the Father, not the wrath of Jesus.

Matthew 22:2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.” ’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Notice how Jesus differentiated between the king, who represents God the Father, and the king's son, who obviously represents Jesus. In verse 7 it indicates that the king, representing God the Father, "sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.". What happened in 70 AD was God the Father's wrath and was not a coming of Christ in any sense.
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You are correct. Thank you. :)
 
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