The two witnesses

Spiritual Jew · May 30, 2026

keras said:
A past fulfilment of Daniel 9:27, is impossible for many reasons.
Preterism is just a way to avoid the possibility of bad things happening to yourself.

You are extremely ignorant about what others believe. It is not just preterists who believe that Daniel 9:27 is fulfilled. Even some futurists believe that and many historicists and idealists and others who have a combination of all of those views believe that, also. Jesus confirmed the new covenant long ago with His death on the cross and shed blood and that made the old covenant sacrifices and offerings obsolete. That is what that verse is talking about. You don't need to be a preterist to understand that.

Spiritual Jew · May 30, 2026

Douggg said:
keras, the Jews, most of whom follow the Law of Moses in the religion of Judaism, are looking for the soon coming of their King of Israel messiah - someone they believe other than Jesus.

They might think that they follow the law of Moses, but they do not because they reject Christ.

John 5:45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Luke 16:27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

keras · May 30, 2026

Douggg said:
keras, the Jews, most of whom follow the Law of Moses in the religion of Judaism, are looking for the soon coming of their King of Israel messiah - someone they believe other than Jesus.

Netanyahu is secular, but most Jews in Israel are not.

No, Daniel 9 has not changed. Daniel's people are Jews by birth.

keras, the issue is when is the saying of "peace and safety" takes place and why ? Not when the great tribulation takes place.

The Psalms 83 attack on Israel will be the Gog/Magog event.

Every one of these pronouncements are wrong and can be proved wrong, Only 'peace and safety', which will be fulfilled soon when Trump enforces a kind of peace on the Middle East.

Douggg · May 30, 2026

Jan001 said:
Daniel's prophecy foretold the desecration of the future second temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, which the Maccabees later purified and rededicated. 2 Maccabees 10:5-7
The Festival of Dedication/Chanukah memorializes this event. John 10:22

We have to determine what prophecies in Daniel were historic (to us) and which are future (to us).

Yes, in Daniel 11:31. Antiochus IV Epiphanes did place the abomination of desolation in the second temple. It was a statue image of Zeus. That statue image prefigured what the end times abomination of desolation Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24:15 will be similar to.

We know Matthew 24:15 is end times because Daniel 12:11-12 is said to be time of the end in Daniel 12:9.

Also, please notice in Matthew 24:15, Jesus did not say inside the temple (building), but in the holy place (the temple court yard). The AoD will be set-up in the temple court yard.

Daniel 12:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Also, please notice in Matthew 24:15, Jesus said "stand" (not sit).

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

So the AoD will be a statue image, of the beast king, the image that the false prophet will have made in Revelation 13:14. The statue image will be in the standing position and placed in the temple courtyard - out in the open, easily seen.

Differently !!!! The transgression of desolation of Daniel 8:13 will be a sit in the temple building by the Antichrist revealing himself as the man of sin. Described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

AoD - a statue, standing position, set up
ToD - a person, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Douggg · May 30, 2026

keras said:
Every one of these pronouncements are wrong and can be proved wrong, Only 'peace and safety', which will be fulfilled soon when Trump enforces a kind of peace on the Middle East.

Who is going to say "peace and safety" ? Who is at war, conflict ? Israel and Iran, right ?

The 1Thessalonians5 peace and safety is much broader in scope.

So, is the Gog/Magog attack on Israel by a coalition of countries (which includes Iran) gong to break that peace and safety status ?

keras · May 30, 2026

Douggg said:
The 1Thessalonians5 peace and safety is much broader in scope.

All the world is affected by what is happening in the ME.

Douggg said:
So, is the Gog/Magog attack on Israel by a coalition of countries (which includes Iran) gong to break that peace and safety status ?

I have proved to you many times that G/M does not attack the Jewish State of Israel, but a new nation of people, living in all of the Holy Land, and relying on the Lord for protection. The current inhabitants of all that area will be uprooted. Jeremiah 12:14-17, Zechariah 1:14-18, +
People seem to be unable to comprehend the dramatic punishment the Lord will send to destroy His enemies. Who include the Jesus hating Jews.

The 'peace and safety', will be broken by the Sixth Seal - Lords Day of fiery wrath.
The reset of our civilization, now as it was in the days of Noah.

Douggg · May 31, 2026

keras said:
All the world is affected by what is happening in the ME.

I have proved to you many times that G/M does not attack the Jewish State of Israel, but a new nation of people, living in all of the Holy Land, and relying on the Lord for protection. The current inhabitants of all that area will be uprooted. Jeremiah 12:14-17, Zechariah 1:14-18, +
People seem to be unable to comprehend the dramatic punishment the Lord will send to destroy His enemies. Who include the Jesus hating Jews.

The 'peace and safety', will be broken by the Sixth Seal - Lords Day of fiery wrath.
The reset of our civilization, now as it was in the days of Noah.

keras, you said the peace and safety is something enforced by Trump, involving Israel and Iran.

Your theory of a replacement nation to the current nation of Israel would take 10 to 15 years, to build.

Your statement about Trump's enforcement of peace and safety - and replacement nation don't fit with each other.

keras · May 31, 2026

Douggg said:
Your theory of a replacement nation to the current nation of Israel would take 10 to 15 years, to build.

No, it won't:
All the Land that was promised to Abraham will be cleared and cleansed after this next prophesied event, the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, the punishment by fire. Isaiah 66:15-16 Then, as Isaiah and Ezekiel prophesy; His people will be gathered and ‘passed under the rod’. [The rod of judgement and separation] The righteous then enter the Land, with great joy, singing praises to their Redeemer. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 35:1-10

Isaiah 6:11-12 I asked the Lord: How long? Until the Land and cities are desolate and deserted, their houses vacant. He will drive the people far away and all the country will be one vast desolation.

Isaiah 17:9 On the Day of retribution, cities will be deserted, like those of your enemies in ancient times.

When the Christian Israelites, the faithful people of God; Jews and Gentiles, enter the depopulated Land, there are amazing promises to them of how the Land will be fruitful and they will live in the houses left vacant. Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29, 6:16

Psalm 69:35 For You will deliver Zion and the cities will be rebuilt. The Lord’s people will settle there and possess it.

Amos 9:14 I shall restore the fortunes of My people, they will rebuild their devastated cities and live in them, plant vineyards and enjoy prosperity in their Land.

Isaiah 54:2-3 Extend your boundaries, for you will spread in all directions and dispossess nations, then repopulate cities now desolate.

Ezekiel 36:10 & 33 I shall settle in the Land all the Israelite people. The towns will again be inhabited and the ruined places rebuilt.

Jeremiah 30:18 I shall restore the fortunes of Jacobs clans. Every city will be restored and houses again rebuilt.

Isaiah 58:12-14 Buildings in ruins will be restored and you will rebuild on ancient foundations. You will be called ‘the restorer of houses’. Ref. REB.

2 Esdras 1:35-37 I shall hand over the homes of your enemies to a people yet to come, a people who will trust Me, though they have not known Me, who will obey My commandments, even though they never saw the prophets. Yet they will keep in mind what the prophets taught of old. I vow that these people will have My favour, they will perceive by the spirit and believe what I have said. Ref: REB Apocrypha

After the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath, a Day of fire and earthquakes, in a very short time, Isaiah 29:17, the Land will be regenerated and resettled. There is no mention of Jesus being present as yet, in fact they select their own leaders. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
They will rebuild the temple. [Zechariah 6:15] Later, it is them who greet the Returning Jesus with the shout ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!’

keras · May 31, 2026

Douggg said:
Your statement about Trump's enforcement of peace and safety - and replacement nation don't fit with each other.

There will be people who say; Peace and safety', after Trump enforces a deal with Iran. but it won't last long as Iran will attempt to use the weapon of their might, Jeremiah 49:35-37 and as Jeremiah and many other Prophets tell us, that will be their doom.

Why do I have to point out these Bible verses to you? Have you such a fixed view of the end times, that its impossible to see alternatives?

Jan001 · May 31, 2026

Douggg said:
We know Matthew 24:15 is end times because Daniel 12:11-12 is said to be time of the end in Daniel 12:9.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Hebrews 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Douggg · May 31, 2026

keras said:
There will be people who say; Peace and safety', after Trump enforces a deal with Iran. but it won't last long as Iran will attempt to use the weapon of their might, Jeremiah 49:35-37 and as Jeremiah and many other Prophets tell us, that will be their doom.

Why do I have to point out these Bible verses to you? Have you such a fixed view of the end times, that its impossible to see alternatives?

keras. I don't know of a single other person who believes in the replacement Christians nation of the current nation of Israel. Nor a single other person who believes that Christians are going to build the next temple that the Antichrist is going to sit in, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

And you don't make schematics of series of events of the end times that lay out your theories.

The "peace and safety" saying of 1Thessalonains5, when it is shattered, will be shortly followed by the great tribulation when God's wrath will be poured out. Trump's peace plan has nothing to do with that.

Douggg · May 31, 2026

Jan001 said:
1 Corinthians 10:11-12
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Hebrews 9:26
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Matthew 24:15-31 is talking about the generation that will see Jesus's return.

WilliamLhk · May 31, 2026

keras said:
A past fulfilment of Daniel 9:27, is impossible for many reasons.

Not single one of which you provided.

keras said:
Preterism is just a way to avoid the possibility of bad things happening to yourself.

Name-calling, are you? I teach pre-wrath, as you should know by now, if you had been paying attention in the dozens of interactions we've had over many years.

keras · May 31, 2026

Douggg said:
I don't know of a single other person who believes in the replacement Christians nation of the current nation of Israel. Nor a single other person who believes that Christians are going to build the next temple that the Antichrist is going to sit in, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Daniel 12:4& 10 say that only a few people will understand the end time Prophesies.
And Isaiah 29:9-12, tells us that those who choose to believe false theories will be locked into them.
1 Corinthians 3:18-19... we must put aside mans teachings and clear our minds, before we can understand Gods teachings.

I have presented the proof that Gods holy peoples, that is: all the faithful Christians, will be present in the Holy Land before the Great Trib.
Actually before the G/M attack, as a careful reading of Ezekiel 38 - 39 proves. Also; Joel 2:18-20 tells how the Lord will Bless and protect His people, who cannot be the Jews,- before their punishment.

Many Prophesies talk about the gathering of Gods peoples. I don't think it will be to New Zealand! Psalms 69:35, Romans 9:24-26

keras · May 31, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
Not single one of which you provided.

Name-calling, are you? I teach pre-wrath, as you should know by now, if you had been paying attention in the dozens of interactions we've had over many years.

I have written many articles and posted much info about Daniel 9:27. Most other interpretations, like some here; are wrong, for example - saying it is a covenant with God, when it is plain that God is not a participant.

Sorry if I can't remember peoples beliefs. Frankly, everyone can believe whatever they like; my task is simply to present the Biblical truths.
I do get frustrated, as people with beliefs like a pre-wrath rapture to heaven, are made unable to comprehend what God really does plan for His peoples.

WilliamLhk · May 31, 2026

keras said:
I do get frustrated, as people ... are made unable to comprehend what God really does plan for His peoples.

As do people with your beliefs and lack of comprehension.

As of now, I believe such issues will begin to be resolved within the next few years. (Although timing of developments is always an iffy business.) Looking forward to it.

Jan001 · May 31, 2026

Douggg said:
Matthew 24:15-31 is talking about the generation that will see Jesus's return.

My interpretation is that Jesus Christ prophesies he will come in judgment against the unbelieving Jews in the first century AD.

Prophecy language is usually not literal.

The coming of the Son of Man in judgment against the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD, via his enabling of the Roman armies:

29 “Immediately after the suffering of those days (Acts 8:1, Acts 11:19, Acts 13:50, Acts 14:22, 2 Corinthians 12:10, 1 Thessalonians 1:6, 1 Thessalonians 3:4, 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 2 Timothy 3:11)
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like fire, says the Lord, and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces? Matthew 24:2, Luke 19:41-44

Douggg · May 31, 2026

Jan001 said:
My interpretation is that Jesus Christ prophesies he will come in judgment against the unbelieving Jews in the first century AD.

Jesus did not return in the first century in the manner described in Matthew 24:30.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:15-31 is still future.

WilliamLhk · Jun 1, 2026

Jan001 said:
The coming of the Son of Man in judgment against the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD, via his enabling of the Roman armies:
... 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’

So they saw Him, and none of them present ever reported it?

Jan001 said:
31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Which elect then did these angels gather?

Douggg · Jun 1, 2026

WilliamLhk said:
Which elect then did these angels gather?

Hi William,

We know Matthew 24:31 has not taken place yet.

As far as who the elect are in verse 31, they are Jews, i.e. the children of Israel, that will be gathered from around the world to the land of Israel. The Jews (Judaism) call that gathering "the final redemption", information to you in case you hear a Jew talking about it.

Matthew 24:31 corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28 which none of the Jews are left in the nations, it says in that verse 28.

Jesus Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth some time in the future.

Further information contained in Matthew 24:31 enlightens us that it is talking about the elect being gathered. The phrase "from one end of heaven to the other".

That phrase does not mean heaven where God's throne is, but from the furthest corners of the earth, the most distant lands from Israel.

That same sort phrase is used in Deuteronomy 30:1-6 in verse 4. Deuteronomy 30:1-6 = Ezekiel 39:28 = Matthew 24:31.

Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Please get familiar with those verses I referenced, if you aren't already. And educate others. Some people mistakenly think that Matthew 24:31 is talking about the rapture, but it is not.

The two witnesses

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Striving to win the prize...

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Active Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Active Member

Striving to win the prize...

The coming of the Son of Man in judgment against the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD, via his enabling of the Roman armies:​

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Active Member

The coming of the Son of Man in judgment against the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD, via his enabling of the Roman armies:​

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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