Antiquities vs. Ministry of Oil paperwork

No gods · Apr 14, 2003

from here: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=396997

Americans defend two untouchable ministries from the hordes of looters
By Robert Fisk in Baghdad
14 April 2003

Iraq's scavengers have thieved and destroyed what they have been allowed to loot and burn by the Americans and a two-hour drive around Baghdad shows clearly what the US intends to protect. After days of arson and pillage, here's a short but revealing scorecard. US troops have sat back and allowed mobs to wreck and then burn the Ministry of Planning, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Irrigation, the Ministry of Trade, the Ministry of Industry, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Information. They did nothing to prevent looters from destroying priceless treasures of Iraq's history in the Baghdad Archaeological Museum and in the museum in the northern city of Mosul, or from looting three hospitals.

The Americans have, though, put hundreds of troops inside two Iraqi ministries that remain untouched and untouchable because tanks and armoured personnel carriers and Humvees have been placed inside and outside both institutions. And which ministries proved to be so important for the Americans? Why, the Ministry of Interior, of course with its vast wealth of intelligence information on Iraq and the Ministry of Oil . The archives and files of Iraq's most valuable asset its oilfields and, even more important, its massive reserves are safe and sound, sealed off from the mobs and looters, and safe to be shared, as Washington almost certainly intends, with American oil companies.

It casts an interesting reflection on America's supposed war aims. Anxious to "liberate" Iraq, it allows its people to destroy the infrastructure of government as well as the private property of Saddam's henchmen. Americans insist that the oil ministry is a vital part of Iraq's inheritance, that the oilfields are to be held in trust "for the Iraqi people". But is the Ministry of Trade relit yesterday by an enterprising arsonist not vital to the future of Iraq? Are the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Irrigation still burning fiercely not of critical importance to the next government? The Americans could spare 2,000 soldiers to protect the Kirkuk oilfields but couldn't even invest 200 to protect the Mosul museum from attack. US engineers were confidently predicting that the Kirkuk oilfield will be capable of pumping again "within weeks".

There was much talk of a "new posture" from the Americans yesterday. Armoured and infantry patrols suddenly appeared on the middle-class streets of the capital, ordering young men hauling fridges, furniture and television sets to deposit their loot on the pavement if they could not prove ownership. It was pitiful. After billions of dollars of government buildings, computers and archives have been destroyed, the Americans are stopping teens driving mule-drawn carts loaded with second-hand chairs.

Interesting what the Bush administration sees as important in this liberation of the people of Iraq, isn't it?

SemperReformanda · Apr 14, 2003

No gods-

This is amusing. To anyone who knows anything about journalism, Robert Fisk is a joke. He was basically the court jester of the journalism community during the entire war, claiming there were no American troops near the airport even while we were firmly ensconced there, etc. He wrote love-poem puff pieces about the strength of the Iraqi army right up to the day we waltzed into downtown Baghdad, and claimed that millions of innocent Iraqis would die when we invaded. He is, in other words, an insult to reader's intelligence and a disgrace to real journalism.

This is the equivalent of someone posting a Jerry Falwell essay as objective reportage on a Gay Right's convention...

However, even if we were to pretend that he were a real journalist, this isn't the horrible shock you would like it to be.

The Americans are very thinly stretched. Yes, they have taken Baghdad. But there are still snipers popping up all over the place, and continuing pockets of resistance. The Marine's firefight near Saddam City is a good recent example. Furthermore, many, many villages and towns that were bypassed in the lightning drive to Baghdad have now to be secured. All the while we need to pacify Saddam's home territory around Tikrit.

Which leaves us with precious few troops for garrison duty. And so priority sites are secured.

Iraq has an enormous task ahead of it as it looks toward reconstruction. The Iraqi oil industry has been nationalized for years, which means that all information on the management, exploration and develpment of oil sites are contained in government buildings. If we seek to get the Iraqi people back on their economic feet, this will be done through oil, not antiquities.

So while you may feel that antiquities are more of a priority, this is debatable. I would put preference on providing a stable life for Iraqi people farther up my agenda.

I'm glad to see we're now able to place increasing emphasis on securing the streets. This will be the case as the sniper problem dies down.

As for the 2,000 soldiers in the Kirkuk fields, I again have little faith in Fisk's reporting. Even if we were to allow them, however, it makes sense. These fields are vast, and the possibility of terrorists (both indigenous and international) striking wells is very real. The economic and environmental ramifications of this are extremely serious.

Again, your points would be more credible if you picked a credible journalist rather than this flack.

eldermike · Apr 14, 2003

Yeah, we should have allowed the looting of contracts and important doccuments related to the only real industry in the country (oil); and protected the desks and chairs. What a bright guy.

No gods · Apr 14, 2003

from: http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/...06694&headline=LOOTERS CAUSE CHAOS IN BAGHDAD

LOOTERS CAUSE CHAOS IN BAGHDAD Apr 13 2003

Report: Stephen Martin In Baghdad

IT began as a celebration. A toast to the toppling of Saddam.

But now the looting has degenerated into downright savagery, and the Americans are spread too thin to do much about it.

Except at the Ministry of Oil which is surrounded by a ring of armour...

Everywhere is anarchy, and to the thieves of Baghdad nothing is sacred. Not their country's most precious artifacts, nor even the meagre possessions of its pitiful orphans.

Yesterday Nabhal Amin, deputy director of the National Museum of Iraq, wept after seeing mindless vandals loot and pillage the building.

It housed nearly 200,000 priceless antiquities, spanning 8,000 years - irreplaceable sculptures, inscribed stone tablets and carved reliefs from a half-dozen cultures, including the Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires.

from: http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=84075

U.S. Army troops and armour blocked access to the main palace grounds. The Oil Ministry also seemed intact with a heavy U.S. military presence inside. Also intact were some of the power installations, power stations and power grids.

Al Jazeera's correspondent in Baghdad, Maher Abdallah, described the situation as "tragic," and suggested it could have been prevented.

from: http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/1600062.php

While U.S. forces were securing the oil ministry in Baghdad, looters freed 50,000 pieces of gold, silver, and bronze antiquities dating back 7,000 years.

from: http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/...tegory=API&ArtNo=304140662&Ref=AR&cachetime=5

A U.S. soldier walks past an over-turned sign at the Oil Ministry where they are guarding the area in Baghdad, Iraq Sunday April 13, 2003. (AP Photo/Hussein Malla)

No gods · Apr 14, 2003

Today at 12:12 PM eldermike said this in Post #3

Yeah, we should have allowed the looting of contracts and important doccuments related to the only real industry in the country (oil); and protected the desks and chairs. What a bright guy.

Oh, nearly 200,000 priceless antiquities, spanning 8,000 years - irreplaceable sculptures, inscribed stone tablets and carved reliefs from a half-dozen cultures, including the Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires are desks and chairs now, huh? Yeah, those documents and contracts are so much more important because there is no way for them to be recreated. Yup, there is no way for the oil production to begin again with out them... yup, most important thing in Baghdad. Please.

D. Scarlatti · Apr 14, 2003

Those are all lefty sources.
Don't you have something unbiased, like newsmax or worldnetdaily?

Lanakila · Apr 14, 2003

They aren't saying priceless antiques aren't important, only that the economy of Iraq isn't going to need them to survive. It is a tragedy that the museum was looted. What are those people going to do with those priceless treasures anyway. Reminds me of a seen I saw when a looter was running off with an incubator from a hospital, the fox news guys says what does he think its a microwave. There is nothing for them to do with the items, but they still steal, kind of reminds me of LA after the Rodney King trial.

No gods · Apr 14, 2003

Here is a snippet from an article in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15136-2003Apr12.html

'Our Heritage Is Finished'
Looters Destroyed What War Did Not

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, April 13, 2003; Page A01

BAGHDAD, April 12 -- At the National Museum of Antiquities, where priceless artifacts had been wrapped in foam and secured in windowless storage rooms to protect them against U.S. bombs, an army of looters perpetrated what war did not: They smashed hundreds of irreplaceable treasures, including Sumerian clay pots, Assyrian marble carvings, Babylonian statues and a massive stone tablet with intricate cuneiform writing.

[snip]

Some Iraqis, however, question the allocation of U.S. forces around the capital. They note a whole company of Marines, along with at least a half-dozen amphibious assault vehicles, has been assigned to guard the Oil Ministry, while many other ministries -- including trade, information, planning, health and education -- remain unprotected.

Caffeine Socialism · Apr 14, 2003

Today at 01:27 PM D. Scarlatti said this in Post #6

Those are all lefty sources.
Don't you have something unbiased, like newsmax or worldnetdaily?

Hear, hear.   I hate that liberal media SO MUCH... especially Fox.   Why can't they ever be fair and balanced?   Just once I'd like to see a fair and balanced newschannel.

eldermike · Apr 14, 2003

Oh, nearly 200,000 priceless antiquities, spanning 8,000 years - irreplaceable sculptures, inscribed stone tablets and carved reliefs from a half-dozen cultures, including the Sumerian, Assyrian and Babylonian empires are desks and chairs now, huh? Yeah, those documents and contracts are so much more important because there is no way for them to be recreated. Yup, there is no way for the oil production to begin again with out them... yup, most important thing in Baghdad. Please.

The most important thing anywhere is only improtant if one is free to enjoy it. Freedom is the important matter. Oil will bring the people of Iraq comfort to go along with freedom.

Goldstein · Apr 14, 2003

Nobody is free to enjoy the museum's artifacts anymore, since they've all been stolen.

Like one archaeologist who was on tv yesterday said, it is the pillaging of the national museum that will be the one and only everlasting effect of this war. Long after this generation passes on, when Gulf War 2 is as distant in people's minds as the Punic wars are today, the disappearance of the museum's treasures will be remembered as a terrible loss to history and archaeology.

SemperReformanda · Apr 14, 2003

Goldstein

I think the pillaging was very sad. I do not, however, think that all of these treasures will now evaporate. It's one thing to load a bust or sarcophagus on your donkey wagon. It's quite another to find a buyer for it and get it out of the country. I think many of these will be recovered.

I think the idea that this will still be remembered in a couple of thousand years (a la the Punic Wars) is a bit of a sob story. Again, it's sad. But hyperbole doesn't help reinforce that.

Caffeine Socialism-

Love the graphic. We were just razzing my coworker that Menudo had called and wanted his jacket back. You should see this thing. I'm not sure even Menudo would have gone out in public wearing it...

No gods-

You seem to be extremely knowledgable about the oil industry. Well, one would hope anyway, given your sarcastic dismissal of the idea that the paperwork in the ministry must be important.

I actually lived for quite a long while in Midland, TX. It's the area where 1/3 of all oil in the continental US is pumped. Everyone in my church besides myself, the pastor and an oncologist was in oil. You learn a lot at potlucks when all anyone talks is oil. There is a tremendous amount of research that goes into the search for and the exploitation of oil. There were 3 geologists just in my church of 100 people. Given the secretive nature of the regime, and the nationalized nature of the oil industry in that country, this research would probably be hard to acquire elsewhere. It would take a long time to recreate decades of exploration and surveying.

But of course you knew that.

No gods · Apr 14, 2003

From Yahoo News: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030412/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_plundered_treasures_7

The chances of recovery are slim; regional museums were looted after the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites), and 4,000 pieces were lost.

"I understand three or four have been recovered," [John Russell, a professor of art history and archaeology at the Massachusetts College of Art] said.

But I'm sure by your statement above that you are extremely knowledgable about the black market for artifacts, so I'm sure your prediction of many being returned THIS time is very accurate.

If, by some crazy chance, you are wrong, exactly how long do you think it will take to "recreate" the ancient artifacts? A little longer than a few decades I would guess... But of course you knew that.

SemperReformanda · Apr 15, 2003

no-

But I'm sure by your statement above that you are extremely knowledgable about the black market for artifacts, so I'm sure your prediction of many being returned THIS time is very accurate.

I'll happily and cheerily admit that I was talking out of my hat on the issue of artifact recovery just as soon as you admit that you don't have a clue in your head about the oil industry and the importance of guarding the ministry building.

But then, the whole rationale for your thread post would rather evaporate, n'est-ce pas?

SemperReformanda · Apr 15, 2003

No-

Interesting what the Bush administration sees as important in this liberation of the people of Iraq, isn't it?

Unless you really aren't trying to make one, it would seem you think that innuendo is a proper substitute for making a substantive point. A bit like your Robert Fisk and his daily use of sinister quotation marks around things he disagrees with.

What are you actually trying to say about US motives and their securing of the oil fields and offices? Until you make a point of your own, it's difficult to dailogue with you about it.

No gods · Apr 15, 2003

Today at 06:42 AM SemperReformanda said this in Post #15

Interesting what the Bush administration sees as important in this liberation of the people of Iraq, isn't it?

Unless you really aren't trying to make one, it would seem you think that innuendo is a proper substitute for making a substantive point. A bit like your Robert Fisk and his daily use of sinister quotation marks around things he disagrees with.

He isn't my Robert Fisk. And since you don't find him to report according to your standards, I have since backed up his assertion that the US protected the Ministry of Oil while allowing the Museum of Antiquities to be looted, even though the US was petioned to protect the museum several times of the past several months. I can post a picture of them guarding it if you like.

What are you actually trying to say about US motives and their securing of the oil fields and offices? Until you make a point of your own, it's difficult to dailogue with you about it.

Though I thought my point was clear, I will clarify.

I do not have an issue with the US securing the oil fields. The environmental impact of sabotaged oil fields makes the securing of the fields highly important without argument. However, in my opinion it appears that the US government prizes the Ministry of Oil replaceable paperwork over the irreplaceable ancient artifacts that they most likely could have protected with a small number of Marines/peacekeepers. So my main question is, why did the Bush administration not see any importance to at least make an effort to protect these treasures of human history?

SemperReformanda · Apr 15, 2003

No-

And since you don't find him to report according to your standards, I have since backed up his assertion that the US protected the Ministry of Oil while allowing the Museum of Antiquities to be looted, even though the US was petioned to protect the museum several times of the past several months. I can post a picture of them guarding it if you like.

I wasn't objecting to these things. I was merely asking for you to post a less polemical source since these reports are to be the common ground of our discussion. Much as you would likely do if I were to post Falwell as our point of departure for a discussion on some other subject. You have since done that, and I thank you.

However, in my opinion it appears that the US government prizes the Ministry of Oil replaceable paperwork over the irreplaceable ancient artifacts that they most likely could have protected with a small number of Marines/peacekeepers.

Again, we must disagree over this paperwork being replaceable. From my experience, the research that goes into oil production is extremely time consuming and expensive to replicate. Since this is to be the economic foundation of the reconstruction, it seems very common sense that we would prize these "papers."

As for the "small number of peacekeepers," I'm not sure what the source of your military experience is. I spent 8 years in the airborne infantry and military intelligence, and I have some idea of the complexity of urban warfare. It's well known that our forces are thinly stretched at the moment. Since I don't know what the tactical situation is there around the museum, I'm willing to defer to the commanders actually on the ground and making the decisions. I will, of course, admit it's regrettable that you aren't there to lend your tactical expertise to the effort and show them how to do things.

It seems to me that our disagreement is primarily over the priorities of assignment for the troops on the ground. You think precedence should be given to the museum, I think that the financial base for the economic recovery is more important. It's the sort of thing which people of goodwill can disagree over and part as friends.

SemperReformanda · Apr 15, 2003

It's bemusing...

To watch people get all aflutter over inanimate objects when just days ago they couldn't bestir themselves to support the liberation of actual live, breathing people from constant and daily repression and summary execution.

This must be the vaunted Liberal compassion I'm always hearing about in their speeches.

Antiquities vs. Ministry of Oil paperwork

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