definition of faith

BelieveItOarKnot said:

I asked if you were temporarily sinless.

Are you?

I'm a sinner and my sin is of the devil. Romans 3:9, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Never have I been sinless, (nor have you)

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In regard to your above question, it is a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation. Forgive me if I decline to answer it.

Jeff Carr said:

Sorry, I phrased the above clumsily. Jesus calls His disciples to 'be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect '. This is not faultlessness but a perfection in love. This is having a heart that loves God with all of one's being and your neighbour as yourself.
John in his first epistle says that all sin is 'lawlessness'. John Wesley's definition of sin,' willful transgression of a known law of God' captures the New Testament teaching on the nature of sin. Sin is willful, it is a choice made. It is a transgression, a crossing of a forbidden line. That line is the Law of God, in the New Testament sense, the 'Law of Love'. And finally, it is a 'known' transgression, the person is aware of crossing that line. I hope this clarifies it for you.
Blessings.

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Not all sin is transgression. Transgression of God's law is willful, deliberate, intentional, premeditated sin. Great examples of this definition are the sins of A&E in the Garden. In both cases their sins are called "transgressions". But people can also unwittingly, ignorantly, accidentally or even unconsciously sin. This why David asked God to forgive his hidden sins against Him (Ps 19:12).

BelieveItOarKnot said:

I asked if you were temporarily sinless.

Are you?

I'm a sinner and my sin is of the devil. Romans 3:9, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Never have I been sinless, (nor have you)

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If you knew the scriptures, you would not even ask such a question (1Jn 1:10). There's not a righteous human being on this planet who [always] does right and never sins (Eccl 7:20)!

Doran said:

If you knew the scriptures, you would not even ask such a question (1Jn 1:10). There's not a righteous human being on this planet who [always] does right and never sins (Eccl 7:20)!

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You claimed Jesus destroyed the works of the devil but you still sins and sin is of the devil.

So what's up with your claim?

BelieveItOarKnot said:

You claimed Jesus destroyed the works of the devil but you still sins and sin is of the devil.

So what's up with your claim?

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You tell me. That was one of Jesus' primary purposes for coming into this world, wasn't it (1Jn 3:8)? Did Jesus fail? And did Jesus fail to break the power of sin in his people's lives? And did Jesus fail to overcome the world?

It seems you can't or don't want to differentiate between transgressions, which consist of ongoing, persistent sinful lifestyles, and all other intermittent sin which I described earlier. Not all sin is transgression! If you make this distinction, then everything falls into place.

Doran said:

Not all sin is transgression. Transgression of God's law is willful, deliberate, intentional, premeditated sin. Great examples of this definition are the sins of A&E in the Garden. In both cases their sins are called "transgressions". But people can also unwittingly, ignorantly, accidentally or even unconsciously sin. This why David asked God to forgive his hidden sins against Him (Ps 19:12).

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I believe that the Bible does clearly state that ALL sin is a transgression of the Law of God. If it is 'unwittingly, ignorantly, accidently or even unconsciously' it is not sin, in the Bible sense. Sin to be sin is as you say," willful, intentional, premeditated'. The idea of 'unconscious sins' is not scriptural. This is my understanding of the matter.
Blessings.

Doran said:

You tell me. That was one of Jesus' primary purposes for coming into this world, wasn't it (1Jn 3:8)? Did Jesus fail? And did Jesus fail to break the power of sin in his people's lives? And did Jesus fail to overcome the world?

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Uh, let's try the most obvious. He's not done yet

Doran said:

It seems you can't or don't want to differentiate between transgressions,

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Sin is sin. Its ALL demonic

Doran said:

which consist of ongoing, persistent sinful lifestyles, and all other intermittent sin which I described earlier. Not all sin is transgression! If you make this distinction, then everything falls into place.

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The notions that there are better and worse sinners is nonsense

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Uh, let's try the most obvious. He's not done yet

Sin is sin. Its ALL demonic

The notions that there are better and worse sinners is nonsense

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Really? What were the cities of refuge all about under the Old Covenant? The following link explains it to you, if you want to understand the difference between unintentional and intentional sins (transgressions). Even the ungodly this world understand there's a difference, for example, between premeditated murder and and unpremeditated murder.

Doran said:

Really? What were the cities of refuge all about under the Old Covenant?

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Sin is sin. Romans 3:9 makes no distinctions. Romans 3:19 says the law deems everyone with the same verdict:

GUILTY

Doran said:

The following link explains it to you, if you want to understand the difference between unintentional and intentional sins (transgressions).

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You can spare me any stories that claim you're a better sinner than some other guy. I don't buy them in any form of text spinning when there is obvious scriptural statements to the exact opposite

Doran said:

Even the ungodly this world understand there's a difference, for example, between premeditated murder and and unpremeditated murder.

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This world's judgements are not what we are discussing. You can take that up in ethics court.

Paul actually claimed the exact opposite of your claims. Stating he's the chief of sinners, present tense post salvation, "I am."

I think Paul was honest. 1 Tum. 1:15. A lot more honest than most believers can handle apparently

Jeff Carr said:

I believe that the Bible does clearly state that ALL sin is a transgression of the Law of God. If it is 'unwittingly, ignorantly, accidently or even unconsciously' it is not sin, in the Bible sense. Sin to be sin is as you say," willful, intentional, premeditated'. The idea of 'unconscious sins' is not scriptural. This is my understanding of the matter.
Blessings.

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Yes, we mere mortals commit sins all the time that escape our awareness. Why do you think David wrote what he did in this Psalm?

Ps 19:12-13
12 Who can discern his errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.
13 Keep your servant also from willful sins;
may they not rule over me.
Then will I be blameless,
innocent of great transgression .
NIV

Then from a more literal translation of this passage, we get:

Ps 19:12-13
12 Who can discern his errors?
Acquit me of hidden faults.
13 Also keep back Thy servant from presumptuous sins;
Let them not rule over me;
Then I shall be blameless,
And I shall be acquitted of great transgression.
NASB

And then from this paraphrase:

Ps 19:12-13
12 How can I know all the sins lurking in my heart?
Cleanse me from these hidden faults.
13 Keep me from deliberate sins!
Don't let them control me.
Then I will be free of guilt
and innocent of great sin.
NLT

The reason so many of us cannot know all the sins lurking in our hearts, and for David asking the rhetorical question he did in v.12 is because the heart of man is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked -- so much so no one can truly understand this (Jer 17:9). Man is a deceiver of others and HIMSELF!

So...if you feel up to the task, please share your interpretation of Ps 19:12-13.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Sin is sin. Romans 3:9 makes no distinctions. Romans 3:19 says the law deems everyone with the same verdict:

GUILTY


You can spare me any stories that claim you're a better sinner than some other guy. I don't buy them in any form of text spinning when there is obvious scriptural statements to the exact opposite

This world's judgements are not what we are discussing. You can take that up in ethics court.

Paul actually claimed the exact opposite of your claims. Stating he's the chief of sinners, present tense post salvation, "I am."

I think Paul was honest. 1 Tum. 1:15. A lot more honest than most believers can handle apparently

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But the OT did make a distinction between intentional and unintentional sins. Again,why do you think God commanded in his law that the Israelites were to create six (6) cities of refuge in the Land? And why did God prescribe the death penalty for anyone who violated the 6th commandment but at the same time in the Law provided a judicial remedy for anyone who didn't commit premeditated murder?

You can read more about UNINTENTIONAL sins in Lev 4-5 that deals with various sacrifices since many of those sacrifices did NOT apply for intentional sins. You can also read the entire chapter of Num 35 for more details about those cities of refuge and who was eligible to flee to them.

One more thing: Rom 3:9, 19 is a non sequitur answer. I never claimed that all transgressions aren't sins -- only that all sins are not transgressions. All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples. Do you understand?

Doran said:

But the OT did make a distinction between intentional and unintentional sins. Again,why do you think God commanded in his law that the Israelites were to create six (6) cities of refuge in the Land? And why did God prescribe the death penalty for anyone who violated the 6th commandment but at the same time in the Law provided a judicial remedy for anyone who didn't commit premeditated murder?

You can read more about UNINTENTIONAL sins in Lev 4-5 that deals with various sacrifices since many of those sacrifices did NOT apply for intentional sins. You can also read the entire chapter of Num 35 for more details about those cities of refuge and who was eligible to flee to them.

One more thing: Rom 3:9, 19 is a non sequitur answer. I never claimed that all transgressions aren't sins -- only that all sins are not transgressions. All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples. Do you understand?

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You are welcome to excuse your sins any way you please. I'm not into excuses

BelieveItOarKnot said:

You are welcome to excuse your sins any way you please. I'm not into excuses

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I can see that you're not interested in appropriating God's truth for yourself or having a polite and intelligent discussion. Your only defense for your position is to insult people who understand the bible better than you do. First, you claimed that I said that some sins are "better" than others, which I never said. But what I have repeatedly stated is that not all sins are created equal! There are sins that are indeed less egregious than others, otherwise the Covenant Law of Moses would have prescribed capital punishment for ALL offenses.

Then you insult me again and wax judgmental by claiming that I excuse my sins. I don't excuse my sins, I confess my sins! The Christian life is characterized by confession and repentance, for your info.

We're done! I have no interest in entering into a discussion with anyone with such an abrasive, judgmental, insulting and stubborn spirit.

For the rest of the people who may be following this thread, I wanted to expand on something I said earlier which actually had to do with Natural Revelation (i.e. temporal reality as we all know it to be)! I appealed to the world system, as a leg to my argument, since all mankind understands that not all crimes are created equal; for like the Law in scripture many crimes carry capital punishment sentences, while others carry far more lenient sentences. But Mr. BOK glibly dismissed my appeal to Natural Revelation as solid proof for my premise with these remarks:

This world's judgements are not what we are discussing. You can take that up in ethics court.This world's judgements are not what we are discussing. You can take that up in ethics court.

What BOK fails to understand is that Natural Revelation is a mirror image of the objective, eternal truth claims of Special (divine) Revelation. These two kinds revelation are always in sync with each other. They never contradict! Furthermore, I base my appeal to Natural Revelation on what Paul taught in Rom 1:18-31, in which Natural Revelation reveals important theologically-based truths about God. The world system, like God through his Law, recognizes and understands that there are degrees of criminal egregiousness, and so like God in the Law of Moses, the world has established degrees of punishment to fit the seriousness of criminal offenses. Jaywalking is not quite as serious as first degree murder, for example; therefore, the penalties for both rightly differ significantly.

Rock solid proof of the spiritual importance and relevance to Natural Revelation can easily be seen in a universal principle I call the Law of Distrust. This law is a manifestation of the biblical truth that mankind are totally untrustworthy (Ps 116:11; Jer 17:5, 9; Rom 3:4-5, etc.); , and the world system reflects this truth! This Law simply states that the ungodly world, in its private and public sectors, operates on the presumption that all men, especially those unknown to us, are untrustworthy until such time they can verify their claims. In other words, the world in which we live does NOT operate on the Honor System! This is why we have locks on our houses, locks on our cars, are required to have I.D. on our person, why we have surveillance cameras in stores and on the streets, secret passwords to protect us online, why virtually all nations have standing armies to protect themselves from untrustworthy neighboring nations, etc., etc., etc. This kind of list is all but infinite in this fallen, dark, depraved world. Yet, there is great HOPE for the future in the eternal, visible Kingdom where sin and death will no longer exist. Men will no longer learn war. The gates in the New Jerusalem will never be locked because no sinners will ever enter therein, so I think there's pretty decent chance that there will be no locks on any of the "mansions" that Christ has prepared for us. We will even be able to trust wild animals because they will, evidently, be transformed back to their former Edenic herbivore condition, etc.

Therefore, because fallen man is not only dishonest with others but with himself as well, due to him being intrinsically self-deceived, we can easily understand how David could write what he did In Ps 19:12-13. David wisely did not trust his own heart!

Doran said:

I can see that you're not interested in appropriating God's truth for yourself or having a polite and intelligent discussion.

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I can see you're uncomfortable when faced with answering to bad positions and then lash out.

Doran said:

Your only defense for your position is to insult people who understand the bible better than you do.

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Sins are not counted against you or people, 2 Cor. 5:19. So there are no insults to be had.

Doran said:

First, you claimed that I said that some sins are "better" than others, which I never said. But what I have repeatedly stated is that not all sins are created equal!

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As if there's a difference?

Doran said:

There are sins that are indeed less egregious than others

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you mean, er, ah some sins are better because they don't get as severe of a penalty? Is this the angle you want to try?
I believe Paul was clear that the wages of sin is death. No delineations required. Romans 6:23

Doran said:

Then you insult me again and wax judgmental by claiming that I excuse my sins.

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When scripture tells us sin is "of the devil," how is that insulting YOU??? Why would we excuse the devil? Are you the devil?

Shouldn't we both be looking at the perp instead? Or would you rather go headlong against 2 Cor. 5:19 and just count sins against people?

You see, you have this massive gap in how you see sin. Just pointing to that massive black hole in your positions.

Is the devil legally obedient? Holy? Is the evil that comes from within us legally obedient? Holy?

Sorry. I don't think anyone can seriously justify any such angles.

Doran said:

We're done!

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You haven't even started to make a defense of your faith