Unbaptized Thief on the Cross

Maria Billingsley said:

As you know , we are all under the new covenant, both Jew and Gentile, through Jesus Christ of Nazareth. The thief on the cross was saved because he confessed his faith by acknowledging the Kingship of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This demonstrates that even under the Old Covenant, God counted faith as righteousness. Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for" righteousness," proving that salvation has always been a matter of the heart rather than just following the law. This is the Agape Love Jesus Christ of Nazareth seeks.

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BNR32FAN said:

I don’t think the thief went to Hades, he went to Abraham’s Bosom. Both Hades and Abraham’s Bosom are in Sheol but they are two separate places, one place of paradise for the righteous and the other a place of torment for the wicked.

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BNR32FAN said:

And the discrepancy between Luke 23 and Matthew 27 could either be a mistake in the record or there could’ve been three thieves that were crucified with Christ because it doesn’t really make sense for the repentant thief to say “do you not even fear God” rebuking the other thief for doing something that he himself was also doing. That statement seems to imply that the repentant thief didn’t actually mock Jesus.

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Maria Billingsley said:

The thief on the cross was saved because he confessed his faith by acknowledging the Kingship of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

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ViaCrucis said:

It is true that the thief couldn't have been baptized, because the Lord had not yet instituted Baptism.

But I think the matter with the thief is actually a lot simpler. Jesus said, "You will be with Me in Paradise", when the Son of God declares something, it is. When the God who made all things declares a person forgiven and saved, they are forgiven and saved. Period.

Christ's word to the thief was "You will be with Me" and so it was. Even if baptism had been instituted already, this would hold true. If the God of the universe speaks to a dying Buddhist monk who lived his whole life, cradle to grave, in a remote mountain in Tibet, and say "I will save you" then he is saved. That doesn't change the fact that Christ gave us Baptism for the forgiveness of sins, that the Gospel is to be preached and through the preaching of the Gospel we come to faith, and through faith God freely justifies us and saves us on Christ's account.

We can speak of ordinary means and extraordinary means. For example, what does fire do? Fire burns. Yet what happened when Daniel's three companions were thrown into a fiery furnace for now bowing down to the image of Nebuchadnezzar? We read that not even a hair on their head was singed by the intense flames. So what do we learn from this story? That fire doesn't burn? No, of course fire burns. What we learn is that God can, according to His good will and purposes, have fire not burn.

Christ instituted Baptism, and it is given for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) and it saves (1 Peter 3:21) and through Baptism we are brought into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3-4) we are clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27). So what happens if or when God saves someone who is not baptized? Does that negate baptism? Of course not. Baptism is given for a reason, God attaches His word to Baptism so that He is faithful to His own word. So that "whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved" as we read in Mark 16:16.

The point we need to understand is that God is pro-salvation. He actually wants to save us. So the point isn't to put a bunch of obstacles in the way. The point is that God has provided the ordinary, external means--Word and Sacrament--which He has commanded His Church to do as part of His Church's evangelical mission of reaching the world. Baptism isn't an obstacle to overcome, it's a means which God uses to convert us. The preaching of the Gospel isn't an obstacle, it's a means which God uses to convert us. So when Christ comes to the thief and declares good news to him, "You will be with Me", that's the same word that God speaks to us through the Gospel, which God speaks to us through Baptism, that's the same word God speaks to us through the Eucharist.

God speaks His word, and it saves us. He comes down and says, "I will save you", and He does, in fact, actually save us. The usual, ordinary means He does this is Word and Sacrament. That is why He called His Church to preach the Gospel, to baptize, to make disciples, etc. God chooses to use His Church as the instrument and vehicle of proclaiming His word to the world.

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Dave... said:

BNR32FAN

I believe that Abrahams bosom is Paradise, which was in Hades at that time, up until Jesus ascended taking Paradise with Him.

Hades is just the NT word for Sheol in the OT. As I see it, Hades had at least two compartments, one was where Paradise was kept until Jesus ascended, taking Paradise and all who were kept there until His death resurrection and ascension (OT believers), with Him to the third heaven. All that's left in Sheol/Hades after that and still today are those awaiting the White Throne judgment. Unbelievers are still sent there waiting for that judgment.

Paradise before Jesus ascended. "Today" you will be with Me in Paradise" OT- Luke 23:39-42, compare to Acts 2:25-33. Jesus descends to Hades for three days. Conclusion: Paradise was in Hades at that time. I believe that Jesus preached to the spirits there (1 Peter 3:19-20), probably on both sides, Proclaiming victory to those lost who didn't believe, and sharing the Gospel to those who never heard it, but were declared righteous already, and promised the Holy Spirit. (Hebrews 11:39-40)

Paradise after Jesus ascended, in the third heaven. NT- 2 Corinthians 12:2-4. Up until that point when Jesus ascends, nobody ascended because the spiritual union that saves, that immersion being with us and Jesus by way of the Holy Spirit indwelling, which is called the placing into/immersion/baptism with the Holy Spirit, was still only a promise. OT-John 3:13-14. There needed to be a death resurrection and ascension, and Jesus glorified before the Holy Spirit was given. Only then were the ingredients available to save us if made one spiritually with Jesus by way of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Spirit can then bring the blood with Him when He indwells us, to cleanse that Temple, us. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20.



All four Gospels explicitly state only two criminals were crucified alongside Jesus. There are other places we can draw the same conclusion. Speaking of the thieves, "but the other", not 'but one of the others'.

It doesn't' matter, until a person has the Spirit of Christ in him, the Holy Spirit, he is not saved (Romans 8:9-11). The baptism with the Holy Spirit accomplished this. So, the thief was not saved but in Promise, like the rest of the OT believers. He was not yet placed into Christ to be born again, dying with Him and raised up with Him. And not yet justified by the righteousness of God, which is Jesus as fully man, and fully God (Matthew 19:26), obeying the Law perfectly, and without sin in His life, being an acceptable sacrifice for our atonement. All these ingredients needed for our salvation, both legally and practically, are available in that spiritual union only after Jesus ascends. And, the Holy Spirit would not enter a person without the blood of Christ to cleanse that Temple. All waited for the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus.

If you believe that water baptism saves, then you must also conclude that circumcision saved the OT Jews. But Paul clearly put that idea to rest in Romans 4. These physical acts could never save.

Dave

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Jeesuspelastaa said:

The thief on the cross was saved without baptism, which is sometimes used as a reason to say that baptism is not necessary. But when we look at the matter more closely, we see that the criminal on the cross should not have been baptized at that time because he was saved before the commandment to baptize was given. Jesus gave the general commandment to baptize 40 days after the events of the cross. Mark 16:9-20. Acts 1:3. Thus, the thief on the cross was the last person to be saved from the old covenant. The new covenant began with Jesus’ death: “This is the new covenant in my blood!” Luke 22:20. Jesus was still alive when He forgave the sins of the criminal on the cross next to Him. The thief prayed in agony, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.” And Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:42,43. He was thus saved as a borderline case, when the old covenant was exchanged for a new one.

Jesus is the only Savior! His blood cleanses the sinner who repents of his sins and calls on Jesus for help. Rom. 10:13. And Jesus gives everyone ”a future and a hope”. Jer. 29:11-13. He saves even the worst sinner. He does not leave the person he saves as he was before, but of those who have come to faith, whose sins have been forgiven and who have repented and then been baptized, it is said: ”Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, the new has come!” 2 Cor. 5:17. / Acts 18:8.

The unbaptized is in Adam. The baptized is in Christ. ”For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Gal. 3:27. 2 Cor. 5:17. ”Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye were raised with him through faith.” Col. 2:12. Rom. 6:4.

Only those who have come to faith can be baptized. Just as a newborn child is washed after birth, so the regenerate must be baptized immediately, ”by the washing of water.” Thus we can understand the ”washing of regeneration” in its proper connection with the forgiveness of sins and the baptism of immersion received after regeneration. ”He saved us, not by works of righteousness which I have done, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.” Titus 3:5. John 3:5.

Baptism is performed by the brethren of the congregation, ”for in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” 2 Cor. 13:1. When the thief on the cross was saved, the commandment to baptize had not yet been given. Therefore, he should not have been baptized. But ever since the commandment to baptize was given, baptism has been an absolute requirement for all believers. The Bible clearly teaches that in the early congregation ALL believers were baptized by immersion in water in the name of Jesus! No one was left unbaptized. ”Let every one of you be baptized…” Acts 2:38,41. ”Then those who received his word were baptized…” ”And they continued… in the apostles’ teaching…” Acts 2:41-42. The Bible does not teach that the unbaptized are part of the new covenant congregation.

Baptism is an essential part of the salvation process of the human soul because it involves the burial of the old man through baptism into death. Rom. 6:3,4. ”Repent and be baptized, every one of you…” says Acts 2:38. So there are two things: 1. ) repentance and 2. ) baptism. So if repentance is necessary, then baptism is necessary. – Can we say that repentance is not necessary? In that case, we can say the same about baptism. But we say that both are necessary because God has given them to us as equally valuable. After the baptism command was given, the Bible does not know the concept of an ”unbaptized Christian.” The Bible only knows a converted Christian who has been baptized in water in the name of Jesus after coming to faith. A baptized Christian is a biblical Christian!
Acts 10:48.

The necessity of baptism should not be underestimated. The Bible warns about it, among other things, in Gal. 1:6-9. 2 Pet. 3:16. Rev. 22:18,19. And the unbaptized thief on the cross is not set as an example for us.

”If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”Acts 22:16. Titus 3:5. After baptism, you too will have the same faith as the first Christians.

Weijo Lindroos
Turku

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Maria Billingsley said:

Matthew 3:11
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

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Maria Billingsley said:

I don't think there is anything to gain when discussing "water baptism" through the lens of multiple denominations.

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BNR32FAN said:

In Acts 2 it says that David was not abandoned to Hades which suggests to me that Hades is the place where souls are abandoned. I’ve always seen Hades as being a place of negative consequences myself., like death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

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Lukaris said:

I believe the repentant thief probably received a baptism that falls into that of the Holy Spirit & fire in a merciful & painless way. The repentant thief tried to warn the unrepentant thief so I believe he loved God & his neighbor

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Dave... said:

Not abandoned, but kept. Unbelievers are kept until the White throne judgment still to this day, and for believers, they were kept until the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

It was the OT believers who believed that passage in Acts 2 was speaking of David. Peter explains to them that David was still in the ground, and His flesh did see decay, and then explains that Psalm 16:10 is actually speaking of Jesus, who rose before His body had seen decay (3 days). Remember who has the keys to Hades and death? (Revelation 1:18).

Non believers have still not yet been judged, and are still kept in Hades until that White throne judgment. And believers up until Jesus' ascension could not yet ascend to the Father (John 3:13-14). All true OT believers before the cross were kept in Paradise, which was not yet in the third heaven, but was actually still in Hades. Jesus, then descends into Hades, the thief is told by Him that day he would be with Him in Paradise. He preaches in Hades, and then ascends taking Paradise with Him to be with the Father in the third heaven.

After Pentecost, all believers go directly to the Father in Paradise in the third heaven when they die. No more holding cell is needed, because the death, resurrection, and ascension has happened. Because they can now be in Christ with the indwelling Spirit of God, as a result, their sin is atoned, the righteousness of God is imputed, and they are born again. Now they can be with the Father.

Dave

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BNR32FAN said:

So you don’t see two different places in Sheol, one place of paradise for the righteous and a place of torment for the wicked?

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BNR32FAN said:

I think the story of Lazarus and the rich man makes that idea pretty clear and since there are two different places I would say that people were actually judged at the time of their death in order to determine which place they went to. The judgement at the great white throne is the final judgement where the wicked will either be destroyed in the lake of fire or receive eternal punishment. Personally I tend to lean more towards annihilation. After Christ’s ascension I believe Abraham’s Bosom is empty and the righteous go to heaven to await the new earth and the wicked are still placed in Hades to suffer while awaiting final judgment. As far as Jesus going to preach to spirits in prison, He was preaching to those who were disobedient during the days of Noah. So I think it’s possible that He wasn’t actually preaching to people in Abraham’s Bosom but instead people who are in the place of torment for the wicked. I think either way both of us are having to make some assumptions as to what this all means because it’s not exactly clear with the information that is provided.

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Servus said:

I don't see much point in this debate outside of Christians refusing baptism. Like "I've been a Christian for 30 years and I refuse to get baptized because it's not necessary for salvation". And it's doubtful those saying it's unnecessary for salvation have not been baptized. Probably 99.9% of Christians are baptized regardless of what they believe about it along these lines.

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