definition of faith

RandyPNW · Apr 11, 2026

Junotheservant said:
Faith is a synonym of belief. Man like to complicate things but we can keep things simple.

Example
Do not go to 5th Avenue there is a crazy man with a gun there and he will shoot.

If you believe that statement (have faith) then you won't go there, if you don't believe it then you will go there. You not going where the gunman is located demonstrated your works because you did not go because of your faith in the statement which was given. You going there demonstrated your lack of faith because you didn't believe the statement.

James 2: 26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Yes, but then there is the problem of believing without true works of repentance. James might've seen this kind of "belief" as "illegitimate faith?"

James 2.19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Junotheservant · Apr 11, 2026

RandyPNW said:
Yes, but then there is the problem of believing without true works of repentance. James might've seen this kind of "belief" as "illegitimate faith?"

James 2.19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Exactly which is why faith without works is dead. You can't just say you believe God and don't do what God said. The Devils disobeyed GOD and now they are trying to get man to do the same.

BelieveItOarKnot · Apr 12, 2026

RandyPNW said:
Yes, but then there is the problem of believing without true works of repentance. James might've seen this kind of "belief" as "illegitimate faith?"

James 2.19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

The above is where things tend to get interesting.

Why?

Because ALL of us have sin, and sin is "of the devil." 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Essentially there is a liar, a tempter that we all bear in the flesh. So then you have to ask a very serious question: IF a liar says I believe are they telling the truth? For me that answer is no! The devil has/had no truth in him to tell. John 8:44

And yes, the tempter CAN and DOES speak from the thoughts, words and deeds of ALL.

IF we deny this is the case we've merely been turned into lying hypocrites by that worker. It's a hard place to go and to understand. A big gulp of Gospel

RandyPNW · Apr 12, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
The above is where things tend to get interesting.

Why?

Because ALL of us have sin, and sin is "of the devil." 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Essentially there is a liar, a tempter that we all bear in the flesh. So then you have to ask a very serious question: IF a liar says I believe are they telling the truth? For me that answer is no! The devil has/had no truth in him to tell. John 8:44

And yes, the tempter CAN and DOES speak from the thoughts, words and deeds of ALL.

IF we deny this is the case we've merely been turned into lying hypocrites by that worker. It's a hard place to go and to understand. A big gulp of Gospel

For me, arguing that Satan is a liar is not purely a logical argument, indicating that once he is branded as such he can never say anything that is factually true. He clearly believes in the reality that there is a God-Creator. That belief is not a lie.

Calling him a "liar" is merely the recognition that he rejects the moral authority of God, calling into question God's right to judge properly. That makes Satan a liar at heart, as opposed to stating he is unable to acnowledge some realities such as the exisence of God or even the existence of himself.

His belief in God's reality is therefore true, but flawed in the sense that the God he believes in does not have moral authority over all His creatures. Satan challenges God's ability to judge himself and thus turns a factual truth into a lie. God truly exists as Creator, but He also exists as legitimate Judge over all.

Therefore, the only kind of Belief, or Faith, that is legitimate is the kind that acknowledges both God's existence and His right to Judge. By extension this would require followers of truth and justice to repent of their sins and to live in the righteousness of God, which we believe rests in the exampole and gift of Christ.

BelieveItOarKnot · Apr 12, 2026

RandyPNW said:
For me, arguing that Satan is a liar is not purely a logical argument, indicating that once he is branded as such he can never say anything that is factually true. He clearly believes in the reality that there is a God-Creator. That belief is not a lie.

I would both question and debate that point. IF Jesus said there was no truth in him then even and whenever he speaks it remains a lie. Ref. John 8:44. A perfect devil remains demonically speaking, perfect "in thy ways" I believe was the term employed in the OT

RandyPNW said:
Calling him a "liar" is merely the recognition that he rejects the moral authority of God, calling into question God's right to judge properly. That makes Satan a liar at heart, as opposed to stating he is unable to acnowledge some realities such as the exisence of God or even the existence of himself.

It remains problematic to describe an antiChrist spirit, the spirit of disobedience and as such, antiLife spirit. Unique for sure.

Fortunately temporary and passing away

RandyPNW said:
His belief in God's reality is therefore true, but flawed

Yes, you make my point. Flawed truth is no truth

RandyPNW said:
in the sense that the God he believes in does not have moral authority over all His creatures.

With God as The Standard there are no takers in any case

RandyPNW said:
Satan challenges God's ability to judge himself and thus turns a factual truth into a lie. God truly exists as Creator, but He also exists as legitimate Judge over all.

Let's say God created an opposite, an essential opposer who can do nothing else but oppose.

RandyPNW said:
Therefore, the only kind of Belief, or Faith, that is legitimate is the kind that acknowledges both God's existence and His right to Judge. By extension this would require followers of truth and justice to repent of their sins and to live in the righteousness of God, which we believe rests in the exampole and gift of Christ.

I probably would not assign any of the above to the evil present within anyone, which is courtesy of the tempter and/or his own who has influences over all, other than the obvious and sole exception, God in Christ

RandyPNW · Apr 12, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
I would both question and debate that point. IF Jesus said there was no truth in him then even and whenever he speaks it remains a lie. Ref. John 8:44.

As I said, Satan can state factually true things and still be the "father of lies." He can state his own existence, for example. I have no further interest in debating this.

BelieveItOarKnot · Apr 13, 2026

RandyPNW said:
As I said, Satan can state factually true things and still be the "father of lies." He can state his own existence, for example. I have no further interest in debating this.

General point being that worker operates within everyone, so I get your reluctance, per Romans 7:17-21

RandyPNW · Apr 13, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
General point being that worker operates within everyone, so I get your reluctance, per Romans 7:17-21

I'm not clear on your point? Please don't present what my "reluctance" is to accept your points unless you clearly describe what points you refer to?

I don't associate our sins, generally, with the work of Satan, although that can happen, eg Peter's opposition to Jesus' Cross. Satan is a "liar" because he is trying to carve out a kingdom for himself within God's all-encompassing Kingdom. That is rebellion. When we sin, it is a form of rebellion against God's word, but often a very temporary form of rebellion, followed by contrition.

BelieveItOarKnot · Apr 14, 2026

RandyPNW said:
I'm not clear on your point? Please don't present what my "reluctance" is to accept your points unless you clearly describe what points you refer to?

Already referred.

RandyPNW said:
I don't associate our sins, generally, with the work of Satan, although that can happen,

Jesus said it's a fact. Works for me. Mark 4:15, shown also by John in 1 John 3:8 exempting no sins as not being of the devil.

RandyPNW said:
eg Peter's opposition to Jesus' Cross.

Or Satan entering into Judas or any number of the thousands of examples in the N.T. Gospels.

RandyPNW said:
Satan is a "liar" because he is trying to carve out a kingdom for himself within God's all-encompassing Kingdom. That is rebellion. When we sin, it is a form of rebellion against God's word, but often a very temporary form of rebellion, followed by contrition.

Point being the evil in no one is eliminated by any acts of faith/contrition nor does said evil within all have "faith."

It's not as big of a blanket that many would prefer

And yes, the tempter operates in everyone. With only one sole exception. Jesus

Doran · May 1, 2026

Bob Crowley said:
To answer this question, the place to start is with a dictionary definition of "Faith". The Merriam-Webster version stated the following -

It might be noted that Moslems can have faith. What's the difference since they also take God seriously, even if our theologies are often different?

We might say that the Holy Spirit empowers us to have faith. If that is the case what empowers the Moslems, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and communists to have faith in what they believe, and sometimes to even die for their respective faiths?

In all these "Faiths" there is a human element at work. And since we are human, we can lose faith. For example if someone who has faith in God has a series of personal catastrophes with no apparent relief in sight, they can get to the point where they think God can't be trusted. They have become disillusioned.

It is more than just God at work - we're involved as well.

But when one is spiritually raised from the dead that person will not only come to faith but will persevere in it until the day he dies. This is guaranteed under the unilateral New Covenant promises. He who began a good work will complete it until the Day of Christ Jesus. Therefore, the primary and ultimate cause of anyone's faith is God making good on those unconditional promises. After all, faith is a divine gift. Would a loving and faithful God give to his elect sons and daughters a scorpion instead of a fish?

Doran · May 1, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Already referred.

Jesus said it's a fact. Works for me. Mark 4:15, shown also by John in 1 John 3:8 exempting no sins as not being of the devil.

Or Satan entering into Judas or any number of the thousands of examples in the N.T. Gospels.

Point being the evil in no one is eliminated by any acts of faith/contrition nor does said evil within all have "faith."

It's not as big of a blanket that many would prefer

And yes, the tempter operates in everyone. With only one sole exception. Jesus

Really!? So, I guess Jesus utterly failed to destroy the works of the devil?

RandyPNW · May 1, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Already referred.

Jesus said it's a fact. Works for me. Mark 4:15, shown also by John in 1 John 3:8 exempting no sins as not being of the devil.

Or Satan entering into Judas or any number of the thousands of examples in the N.T. Gospels.

Point being the evil in no one is eliminated by any acts of faith/contrition nor does said evil within all have "faith."

It's not as big of a blanket that many would prefer

And yes, the tempter operates in everyone. With only one sole exception. Jesus

So, you have an inside on how Hell operates? I wouldn't be proud of that!

But seriously, I'm not sure what your point is. Until I'm clear about what it is, I'm not going to comment further.

BelieveItOarKnot · May 1, 2026

Doran said:
Really!? So, I guess Jesus utterly failed to destroy the works of the devil?

If you want to claim you're sinless step on up

Doran · May 7, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
If you want to claim you're sinless step on up

Why would I want to claim that? The three sources of sin are the flesh, the world and the devil. Having said that...Jesus conquered all three -- which means no true born again child of God will ever be held captive by any of these to live a sinful lifestyle.

BelieveItOarKnot · May 7, 2026

Doran said:
Why would I want to claim that? The three sources of sin are the flesh, the world and the devil. Having said that...Jesus conquered all three -- which means no true born again child of God will ever be held captive by any of these to live a sinful lifestyle.

So, just a part time sinner when doing an actual act or permanent sinner while here in flesh body?

Doran · May 7, 2026

BelieveItOarKnot said:
So, just a part time sinner when doing an actual act or permanent sinner while here in flesh body?

So you're sinless, are you? You have achieved holy perfection in this age? And do you understand that there's a difference between transgression and unintended sin?

Aussie52 · May 7, 2026

Doran said:
So you're sinless, are you? You have achieved holy perfection in this age? And do you understand that there's a difference between transgression and unintended sin?

There is a 'perfection' that we are commanded to walk in and if it is not intended, it is not sin. Sin is a willful transgression of a known law of God.

Doran · May 7, 2026

Jeff Carr said:
There is a 'perfection' that we are commanded to walk in and if it is not intended, it is not sin. Sin is a willful transgression of a known law of God.

I don't know what you mean by this. Do you have chapter and verse to support your claim? Israel was commanded to KEEP ALL God's laws. Did anyone, other than Jesus, achieve this high calling? Are you sinless practically speaking (not to be confused with the theological sense)?

Aussie52 · May 7, 2026

Doran said:
I don't know what you mean by this. Do you have chapter and verse to support your claim? Israel was commanded to KEEP ALL God's laws. Did anyone, other than Jesus, achieve this high calling? Are you sinless practically speaking (not to be confused with the theological sense)?

Sorry, I phrased the above clumsily. Jesus calls His disciples to 'be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect '. This is not faultlessness but a perfection in love. This is having a heart that loves God with all of one's being and your neighbour as yourself.
John in his first epistle says that all sin is 'lawlessness'. John Wesley's definition of sin,' willful transgression of a known law of God' captures the New Testament teaching on the nature of sin. Sin is willful, it is a choice made. It is a transgression, a crossing of a forbidden line. That line is the Law of God, in the New Testament sense, the 'Law of Love'. And finally, it is a 'known' transgression, the person is aware of crossing that line. I hope this clarifies it for you.
Blessings.

BelieveItOarKnot · May 7, 2026

Doran said:
So you're sinless, are you? You have achieved holy perfection in this age? And do you understand that there's a difference between transgression and unintended sin?

I asked if you were temporarily sinless.

Are you?

I'm a sinner and my sin is of the devil. Romans 3:9, 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15

Never have I been sinless, (nor have you)

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