Christianity vs Mormonism : Bible, BOM & Nature of God

Yes, but not tonight...I will write more tomorrow on this. However I would still like to know what you think about the 'Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ and Holy Spirit' issue and how, if we go along with the mormon doctrin, you deal with it. I brought up a page or so back. I think this in itself could clarify some things.

In terms of Trinitarianism, is the Holy Spirit the same person as God the Father or Jesus Christ?

THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT: You would ask us to put off our idea of God because the word 'elohim' could be used as a plural or a singular. OK...so what do we do with all of the other names of God which are singular? For example: Lord, Yahweh, Jehova, etc. You would ask me to base my belief, my faith in your idea of 'plural gods' because of one word 'elohim' which is used in the O.T. around 2,500 times when compared to Yehwah which is used 6,000 times? This is not a matter of ruling something out because I don't agree with it...it just doesn't agree with the God I know in the bible.

The problem here is that Jehova only has one meaning, which is "I am that I am," Yahweh, Christ Jesus, the LORD, Redeemer of the world. This does not translate to "God" or "Gods" like "elohiym" does. Any Mormon will tell you that Jehova is the Old Testament name for Christ.

I do not think I have a problem with the word 'Godhead', it is with the definition the mormon church gives it that I have a problem.

Which side are you arguing on anyway?

If this is the case...where is it used?

Do you understand the concept of Trinity as Jedi has explained it? This is where some confusion can come up, I think. Perhaps you should talk to the others here and find out exactly what they believe regarding the Trinity; not everyone has the same idea of what it actually is.
 
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I did address this...and context does affect it. What is Jesus talking about here? He is speaking of the disiples going out and spreading the news...as Jesus had shared it...as God intended it. Why would Jesus have said, "I do not ask on behalf of these alone but for those also who believe in me through their word" if it was all part of the Promise given by God and set down in the O.T. ??? I do not believe that it was...but the Holy Spirit, and the Law being written in our hearts, and glory to the Father, and Love, and doing the will of the Father was.

But you're not seeing the real issue here. I know what the context is, but it makes no difference to the interpretation of the passage. Is there a clue in the context that directs us to the conclusion that Jesus really meant something else than what's apparently meant when He said that? I don't see it. He's essentially praying for unity of the heavenly family. That is the context. If anything, the way I described the passage fits perfectly with that context.

Let's stop talking about what might be and start talking about what is...What words ARE used there? Please do have references available.

What is is the LDS doctrine of the Godhead, and there is evidence to back it up. My point there was to show that the Biblical support for the Trinity is nowhere near as strong as you think it is. Frankly, there's no explicit explanation either way, and that point has already been mentioned in favor of the LDS Godhead; the Trinity is complicated, and if that really was the doctrine that Christ and His apostles taught then it would have caused quite some doubt of validity. Since that is never addressed in the Bible, it stands to reason that a more logically simple doctrine was taught.

Time for class.
 
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Sorry, I had to respond to this...

The Trinity is not confusing to those whom the Trinity is not meant to be confusing. Some people have a hard time because they have never met the Lord.

What the heck kind of a statement is that?! It's not confusing to those it's not meant to be confusing to? How would you know if I know the Lord or not? I have just as much of a rightful claim to say that about you as you do about me, given our knowledge of each other, which is non-existent. Of course, you're a Calvinist, right? So you believe in predestination. So there's a whole other thread right there. I would suggest that you don't go pointing your finger at people.
 
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Wrigley

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Today at 02:25 PM jodrey said this in Post #143

Sorry, I had to respond to this...



What the heck kind of a statement is that?! It's not confusing to those it's not meant to be confusing to? How would you know if I know the Lord or not? I have just as much of a rightful claim to say that about you as you do about me, given our knowledge of each other, which is non-existent. Of course, you're a Calvinist, right? So you believe in predestination. So there's a whole other thread right there. I would suggest that you don't go pointing your finger at people.

Woody's post makes perfect sense. There are many Mormons that I know from the internet, including you, that I pray that God will open their eyes so that they will be able to see.

Those who have ears will hear, those who have eyes will see.
 
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LastMaxim

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Today at 02:18 PM Wrigley said this in Post #144



Woody's post makes perfect sense. There are many Mormons that I know from the internet, including you, that I pray that God will open their eyes so that they may be able to see.

Those who have ears will hear, those who have eyes will see.


...:scratch: :sigh: ... I'm not calvanist, nor am I pointing fingers, but I must agree, if silently, with this statement...
 
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ksen

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jodrey,

According to Mormon teaching, who makes up the Godhead and why?

What is the requirement for membership into the Godhead (a serious question)? Since Jesus Christ was not God from Eternity past than He could not have been a member of the Godhead from Eternity past, right?

Then what was it that allowed Jesus to join the Godhead?

What about the Holy Ghost?

Are Jesus, the Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost the only members of the Godhead?

Thanks in advance for tackling my barrage of questions.
 
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Wrigley

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Today at 03:09 PM ksen said this in Post #147

jodrey,

According to Mormon teaching, who makes up the Godhead and why?

What is the requirement for membership into the Godhead (a serious question)? Since Jesus Christ was not God from Eternity past than He could not have been a member of the Godhead from Eternity past, right?

Then what was it that allowed Jesus to join the Godhead?

What about the Holy Ghost?

Are Jesus, the Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost the only members of the Godhead?

Thanks in advance for tackling my barrage of questions.


Good questoins.

One more to add.

Why wouldn't Jesus just be promoted to god of his own planet? Reminds me a little of Commander Riker from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Isn't the Mormon idea of who Jesus is ready for the big chair?

Mormon doctrine does teach that we are all spirit children of Jehovah, Jesus being the first.
 
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CCWoody

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Today at 11:39 AM jodrey said this in Post #141

The problem here is that Jehova only has one meaning, which is "I am that I am," Yahweh, Christ Jesus, the LORD, Redeemer of the world. This does not translate to "God" or "Gods" like "elohiym" does. Any Mormon will tell you that Jehova is the Old Testament name for Christ. 

Well, the definition I get from Strongs is:  "The [self]-Existing One"

Nevertheless, let's take a jaunt into the Mormon definition of God:
  • When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.

Now, let us simply apply this definition to a verse and see what we get:
  • Deuteronomy 6:4
    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
Now, applying the Mormon definition, we get the following :  "Hear, O Israel:  The Jehovah our Elohim (Father), the Jehovah is one!"

Am I the only one scratching his head at that going, HUH!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.


P.S.  I'm still waiting for you to explain this to me, Jodrey:  And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many.
 
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Oh, this again. I really think that once again, this is nothing more than splitting hairs and does not change a thing. Is Jesus a false God or a true God? Scripture emphasises time and time again that there is no God but Yahweh. To say that Jesus is being spoken of as some sort of metaphorical "god," I think that's a clearly dishonest reading of the text, since the deity of Christ is avidly supported elsewhere.

Well, it can change the meaning... I don't see how that is insignificant. I think it's a rather valid argument. Even so, as I've said, I think the second explanation is probably the right one.

The term translated as "God" here is the same, exact term used to describe who sent John the Baptist into the world (John 1:6), and is the same term used to describe the "Father" in 1 Corinthians 1:3. There's no reason to understand it any different. If scripture says "God did this," it's not saying "a false God" did this, or "one of the many lesser gods did this," but rather "the God did this." Unless the context notes otherwise, this is a general rule we must stick to.

Yes, there are many places where "God" refers to the Eternal Father, but there are also many places where it does not, and so it is inconsistent and unreliable as the name of the Father. God, as a title could also refer to Jesus. See, it's quite dynamic. That was my point. In order to know the meaning you must rely on context.
 
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Woody's post makes perfect sense. There are many Mormons that I know from the internet, including you, that I pray that God will open their eyes so that they will be able to see.

Those who have ears will hear, those who have eyes will see.

You missed my point, Wrigley. You have the same right I do (which is none) to say that someone does or does not hear and follow Christ. It's simply a baseless accusation.
 
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CCWoody

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Today at 11:55 AM jodrey said this in Post #143

Sorry, I had to respond to this...



What the heck kind of a statement is that?! It's not confusing to those it's not meant to be confusing to? How would you know if I know the Lord or not? I have just as much of a rightful claim to say that about you as you do about me, given our knowledge of each other, which is non-existent. Of course, you're a Calvinist, right? So you believe in predestination. So there's a whole other thread right there. I would suggest that you don't go pointing your finger at people.

Actually, jodrey, I was at the time referring to the various heretics infesting the visible church who don't have a clue about the Trinity of God because they have never met Him.

Nevertheless....

How would I know that you don't know the Lord.  Simple, really.  I listen to your description of Him and then I simply look at the Man I've met and note that He doesn't even resemble what you described.  It really takes no great leap of logic to surmise that you met a different person.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.


P.S.  If you want to come and discuss Predestination and other Rockin' Doctrines you are invited HERE!
 
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Good, a more intelligent post. I think, though, that I should not answer your questions, ksen, until you answer mine. Only straightforward so far has responded to my Trilliony theory, and although I'm sure Jedi will eventually, he has not yet, and nor has anyone, replied to my comments about the Hellenization of early Christianity. Until these two thoughts are properly discussed I will not divert. You have good questions, but they can wait until I get my answers, since I did ask first.
 
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Grace_Alone4gives

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Wow - I am off for 2 days and I have 3 pages to read....I will try and catch up.

It appears alot has been addressed - and well. I am going to read everything and add my comments as I go - so I will quote often. I would like to say one thing quickly.

Woody's statement
quote:
The Trinity is not confusing to those whom the Trinity is not meant to be confusing. Some people have a hard time because they have never met the Lord.
This is so very true. I knew if I said something like that it would be refuted - however - I agree 100% with it. You see - the Holy Spirit confirms it in your heart. You may not be able to make logic out of it - but spiritually, there is little confusion. If you know God, you know this to be true.

Now before 'that' statement gets refuted - let me quickly add that the "Spirit confirmation' of truth I am speaking about differs from the one the Mormons talk about when they say pray about the book of Mormon and you will know it to be true. You see, I have never prayeed about the Bible - I know it to be true without prayer - it is simply confimred - no need to pray about God's word.....

anyway, getting off topic.
I will be reading this weekends posts over the next few hours and adding my feedback.

jodrey - I hope you are not too overwhelmed. Let me know if you are.
 
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Actually, jodrey, I was at the time referring to the various heretics infesting the visible church who don't have a clue about the Trinity of God because they have never met Him.

Nevertheless....

How would I know that you don't know the Lord. Simple, really. I listen to your description of Him and then I simply look at the Man I've met and note that He doesn't even resemble what you described. It really takes no great leap of logic to surmise that you met a different person.

But MY point is that you do not know that you are right! All Christians will admit to faith as a necessity, a belief in things that are true but not seen. There is an element of mystery here, and room to be wrong. How do you know that you are not the heretict? Reserve judgment until we have concluded the topic, please.

Also, I hope you realize that you just called God a Man. Under the common book of Christianity that is a heresy.
 
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CCWoody

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Today at 01:26 PM jodrey said this in Post #154

Good, a more intelligent post. I think, though, that I should not answer your questions, ksen, until you answer mine. Only straightforward so far has responded to my Trilliony theory, and although I'm sure Jedi will eventually, he has not yet, and nor has anyone, replied to my comments about the Hellenization of early Christianity. Until these two thoughts are properly discussed I will not divert. You have good questions, but they can wait until I get my answers, since I did ask first.

I responded to it HERE!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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This is so very true. I knew if I said something like that it would be refuted - however - I agree 100% with it. You see - the Holy Spirit confirms it in your heart. You may not be able to make logic out of it - but spiritually, there is little confusion. If you know God, you know this to be true.

Now before 'that' statement gets refuted - let me quickly add that the "Spirit confirmation' of truth I am speaking about differs from the one the Mormons talk about when they say pray about the book of Mormon and you will know it to be true. You see, I have never prayeed about the Bible - I know it to be true without prayer - it is simply confimred - no need to pray about God's word.....

Then you have a problem because most people of different religions will describe the same heart feeling you just described. Which is true, the Bible or the Koran? Muslims can give the same sort of answer many times: "It's true because it makes sense; you can feel it; you just know it." The same can be said for just about any religion. So, there's something wrong with this picture. Care to explain?
 
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Today at 02:13 PM CCWoody said this in Post #149



Well, the definition I get from Strongs is:  "The [self]-Existing One"

Nevertheless, let's take a jaunt into the Mormon definition of God:
  • When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.

Now, let us simply apply this definition to a verse and see what we get:
  • Deuteronomy 6:4
    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
Now, applying the Mormon definition, we get the following :  "Hear, O Israel:  The Jehovah our Elohim (Father), the Jehovah is one!"

Am I the only one scratching his head at that going, HUH!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.


P.S.  I'm still waiting for you to explain this to me, Jodrey:  And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living; for thus have I, the Lord God, called the first of all women, which are many.


Goodness, Woody, do you read my posts to see what I have to say or do you just skim them to look for what you think is wrong?

I have explained many times now that the word "God" is inconsistent in meaning. It does refer to Elohim many times, but it also refers to other things as well. We don't know exactly what was meant by "God" in your cited verse, but it stands to reason, based on context, that in this case, "God" did NOT refer to the Father. It is unreliable to make such judgments as you just did.
 
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LastMaxim

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...Hiya guys,

Just wanted to say this has been a great topic so far. However, it seems to be getting alittle on the personal side of late. I'm concerned that if this trend continues, this thread may loose it's integrety completely, and none of us want to see that happen, do we? Everyone do please take a step back, and a deep breath, for there is alot of ground yet to cover! :sorry:

God Bless!
 
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