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To Hell or Not To Hell

A Devil's Advocate

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None of my posts are me telling you what you need to believe. They are me giving you my perspective and the 'why' of that said perspective. This post will be different. This post is me still working out what it is I believe about Hell and the why of it. All based within the context of 'my' understanding of the Gospel. This is something I'm sure will continue to develop over time as I continue to discover more of God.

- I see in scripture two ages. The present age, and the age yet to come. The present age is understood as being only a temporary age. This is made evident by the fact that there is yet a second age to come.

- In this present, but temporary age, life is temporary. If life is temporary, then logically, death must also be temporary. Maybe this is why death is often referred to as sleep?

- The age to come is understood to be everlasting. If this age is everlasting then so must life be also. And if life is everlasting then, likewise, death must also be everlasting.

- At the end of the first age we will all be resurrected, believers and unbelievers alike. Now because I understand being created in the image of God to mean that we have three defining parts; body, soul, and spirit, I believe all three are essential for life. We cannot exist without all three. (With regards to spiritual death, I believe that our spirit has gone into a dormant state. It is not actually deceased) For this reason I am leaning towards the idea that both believers and unbelievers will receive new bodies at the time we are resurrected. And that these new bodies will be free of a sinful nature. Why?

- We will all stand before the full presence of God. Any corruption within us would likely be obliterated in the full presence of God. Just an assumption on my part. And this is only going to compound the coming judgment for an unbeliever.

- A new sinless body will most likely mean a clear understanding of one's purpose within creation. And it is for this very reason why I am coming to this particular conclusion of Hell, and what that may actually look like. (Again, this is still something I'm working out)

- Unbelievers will suddenly have full awareness of their purpose while at the same time recognizing where their rejection has led them. All the while standing in the full presence of God, the very purpose for their existence. At that moment nothing else will matter to them. All they will want and desire is standing right before them. But... with the knowledge they will never have it due to their former rejection.

- You will now have an unbeliever who's only desire is to worship and to be in the presence of God, but unable to carry it out. (there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth).

- I believe, that in the very beginning, man was created with physical death being a natural part of his existence. Hence the tree of life. As small a possibility as this may have been, a third option was always available: man could have not sinned, but also could have not eaten from the tree of life. Inevitably resulting in everlasting death. Extreme, I know, but hear me out.

- In the age to come, man again has access to the tree of life. So logically, death must still be possible, and dare I say, an option. However, highly unlikely a choice anyone would make after experiencing the full presence of God. Still, the option being there would align with God's character just as it would have in the beginning. And it's the reality of the possibility of death that now applies to unbelievers in this new age.

- If you were to stand in the full presence of God and then suddenly be taken out of His presence, any amount of time, out of His presence, would feel like hell to you.

- In the first part of Genesis, man lived upward of a thousand years. If we carry that over into the new age, you now have unbelievers with new bodies capable of living that same amount of time. This would be worse than any hell anyone could ever imagine. To an unbeliever, any amount of time is going to feel like an eternity. (the word 'Eternity' is often used as hyperbole in scripture since only God is truly eternal)

- An unbeliever will eventually face everlasting death (the second death/lake of fire). But not until after what felt like an eternity of hell for them. In this scenario, not only is God's justice served (experiencing time outside the presence of God in a sinless state where all you want is to be in His presence), but also His love and grace (He does not leave them there for the rest of eternity). I do not find any mention in scripture of man being sent to hell to spend eternity with Lucifer.

As I said, this understanding is something I am currently working out. So I do not hold dogmatically to it. If you do not agree but feel it necessary that I know you don't agree, then do me the respect of explaining why you don't agree, as it may help me in my understanding.

In the end does it matter if I/we understand what exactly Hell is? Not at all. But, everyone is different and being able to answer an unbelievers concerns or questions more confidently may be the defining point of whether they choose to believe or not.
 
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BobRyan

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None of my posts are me telling you what you need to believe. They are me giving you my perspective and the 'why' of that said perspective. This post will be different. This post is me still working out what it is I believe about Hell and the why of it. All based within the context of 'my' understanding of the Gospel. This is something I'm sure will continue to develop over time as I continue to discover more of God.

- I see in scripture two ages. The present age, and the age yet to come. The present age is understood as being only a temporary age. This is made evident by the fact that there is yet a second age to come.

- In this present, but temporary age, life is temporary. If life is temporary, then logically, death must also be temporary. Maybe this is why death is often referred to as sleep?

- The age to come is understood to be everlasting. If this age is everlasting then so must life be also. And if life is everlasting then, likewise, death must also be everlasting.

- At the end of the first age we will all be resurrected, believers and unbelievers alike. Now because I understand being created in the image of God to mean that we have three defining parts; body, soul, and spirit, I believe all three are essential for life. We cannot exist without all three. (With regards to spiritual death, I believe that our spirit has gone into a dormant state. It is not actually deceased) For this reason I am leaning towards the idea that both believers and unbelievers will receive new bodies at the time we are resurrected. And that these new bodies will be free of a sinful nature. Why?

- We will all stand before the full presence of God. Any corruption within us would likely be obliterated in the full presence of God. Just an assumption on my part. And this is only going to compound the coming judgment for an unbeliever.

- A new sinless body will most likely mean a clear understanding of one's purpose within creation. And it is for this very reason why I am coming to this particular conclusion of Hell, and what that may actually look like. (Again, this is still something I'm working out)

- Unbelievers will suddenly have full awareness of their purpose while at the same time recognizing where their rejection has led them. All the while standing in the full presence of God, the very purpose for their existence. At that moment nothing else will matter to them. All they will want and desire is standing right before them. But... with the knowledge they will never have it due to their former rejection.

- You will now have an unbeliever who's only desire is to worship and to be in the presence of God, but unable to carry it out. (there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth).

- I believe, that in the very beginning, man was created with physical death being a natural part of his existence.
Not according to Genesis 1 and 2. Or Romans 5, or Romans 8
Hence the tree of life.
That is like saying "you are supposed to die if you don't breathe so then death is part of your natural existence".
I think that bends around a bit.
As small a possibility as this may have been, a third option was always available: man could have not sinned, but also could have not eaten from the tree of life.
I find your logic illusive just then.

What would be the supposed appeal / motivation, to not eat from the tree of life in your scenario???
Sort of like the scenario where Adam chooses to stop breathing??
- In the age to come, man again has access to the tree of life. So logically, death must still be possible, and dare I say, an option.
so we are back to "the option of choosing not to breathe
' again. I don't understand the focus on such a non-option. There was never an argument made for someone wanting that for themselves.
However, highly unlikely a choice anyone would make after experiencing the full presence of God. Still, the option being there would align with God's character just as it would have in the beginning. And it's the reality of the possibility of death that now applies to unbelievers in this new age.

- If you were to stand in the full presence of God and then suddenly be taken out of His presence, any amount of time, out of His presence, would feel like hell to you.
There is such a thing as creative writing
- In the first part of Genesis, man lived upward of a thousand years.
True. Once separated from the tree of life, mankind still lived on average over 900 years.
If we carry that over into the new age, you now have unbelievers with new bodies capable of living that same amount of time.
nope.

You are comparing mankind after the fall in Genesis 4-6 having a life span of over 900 years on average, even after separated from the tree of life, with mankind in the New Earth having full access to the tree of life, and also being sinless, and as 1 Cor 15 says, having "put on immortality", then claiming that those two very different states, are the same for no apparent reason at all.

Are we simply "not supposed to notice?"
- An unbeliever will eventually face everlasting death (the second death/lake of fire). But not until after what felt like an eternity of hell for them.
I see more creative writing there but I am not sure where your incentive is to go out on that limb
. If you do not agree but feel it necessary that I know you don't agree, then do me the respect of explaining why you don't agree, as it may help me in my understanding.
Ok so I am trying to isolate the very point(s) where your logic seems to be a bit thin.
In the end does it matter if I/we understand what exactly Hell is?
kind of .

It reflects on how well we understand God, the Gospel, Love, Mercy, Justice, our role in the whole thing , etc,
 
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Guojing

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I see in scripture two ages. The present age, and the age yet to come. The present age is understood as being only a temporary age. This is made evident by the fact that there is yet a second age to come.

When you are using the phrase "age to come", you must have taken it from Paul.

If that is the case, then he actually specify three ages to understand scripture

Time past-Before Paul was saved
But now -Present age
Age to come-future
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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Not according to Genesis 1 and 2. Or Romans 5, or Romans 8
Lets just start with this one.... Explain to me how in Gen 3:22, where God says the tree of life would be capable of granting Adam and Eve everlasting life if they eat from it, how that is even possible if sin ultimately leads to physical death? How can the tree of life give everlasting life to a sinful being if their sin ultimately leads to death? That is a contradiction. The only way the tree can do what God claims it can do is if physical death is not tied to sin, but a natural part of human existence.

Romans 5:12, Paul says sin entered the world through one man... was not the Serpent deceiving Eve a sinful act? If Paul is referring to the world in a literal or physical sense, then yes he would likely be referring to physical death. But then why ignore the sin being carried out by the Serpent that led man to sin? Paul here is speaking in context of man's relationship with God. Although there was sin in the world, there was no sin within man's relationship to God. Paul is referring to spiritual death, not physical. Just as God was referring to spiritual death, not physical.

Jesus aged at the same rate every other human aged in His day. Had His divine mission not ended with crucifixion, would He not have continued to age and die like the rest of us? He was made to be like us in every way, was He not? To say that He would not have aged anymore, that he was at the prime of His life and would have stayed there would be a faulty argument for two reasons. First, today's prime of life is considered around 30yrs. In Jesus' day it was more around 20- 25yrs. Secondly, a prime of life presupposes aging and eventual death. Why would an immortal being suddenly stop aging at 30? Why not 70, 160, or even 900? The notion becomes entirely arbitrary without a consistent framework for how an undying sinless body would age over time.
I find your logic illusive just then.

What would be the supposed appeal / motivation, to not eat from the tree of life in your scenario???
Sort of like the scenario where Adam chooses to stop breathing??
At the end of Genesis 3, God says "lest he reach out his hand and take "also" from the tree of life...." shows us that they had yet to eat from the tree of life. Had they eaten from the tree before hand and attained immortality, then death would've been an impossibility, a defining quality of immortality. The tree of knowledge would have had no power to bring about physical death to an immortal being, if it even had such a power to begin with. It's seems odd to me that if there is a tree capable of giving you everlasting life, that it wouldn't be the first thing they would've went for.

Further more, if sin is the initial cause of physical death, then this assumes Adam and Eve were immortal to begin with. In which case, as I just said, death would be impossible. If death is even a slight possibility, then immortality does not apply. They would be considered mortal regardless of how long it would take before dying. Again, supporting my argument that physical death is a natural part of our human existence.

Physical death was not caused by sin, but neither was spiritual death directly caused by sin, either. Spiritual death was the punishment given to Adam and Eve by God for their disobedience. Had sin the inherent power to cause spiritual death, then restoration would be impossible and forgiveness would be meaningless, because the moment anyone sinned, even after receiving new spiritual life, they would immediately die again. Grace and redemption could do nothing to undo that kind of automatic effect.

This spiritual death became the new image Adam and Eve now had as seen in Gen 5:3. And since spiritual death plus spiritual death will always equal spiritual death, we have all come into the world spiritually dead... which is what Paul is speaking about in Rom 5:12.
 
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A Devil's Advocate

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When you are using the phrase "age to come", you must have taken it from Paul.

If that is the case, then he actually specify three ages to understand scripture

Time past-Before Paul was saved
But now -Present age
Age to come-future
The present age is the age we are in now, before Christ's return. The age to come is after Christ's return when the heavens and earth are renewed and God's kingdom is now on earth. There is no longer any death.
 
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Guojing

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The present age is the age we are in now, before Christ's return. The age to come is after Christ's return when the heavens and earth are renewed and God's kingdom is now on earth. There is no longer any death.

The term “age to come”, where did you get it from scripture?
 
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