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Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Limited atonement !
- Thread starter Brightfame52
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Then why did Nicodemus seek Christ before Nicodemus was born again?
He sought him out:
John 3:1-2
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” (NKJV)
He was definitively not born again yet, because he is included among those who needed to be, per Jesus himself:John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ (NKJV)
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- Sep 23, 2005
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Jesus tells those who He said are not His sheep to believe:
John 10:24-39
24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.” 39 Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand. (NKJV)
He tells them to believe the works that they may
- know
- believe that the Father is in Him, and He in the Father
He said the same to His disciples:
John 14:8-11
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (NKJV)
Just as He told those who didn't have the love of God in their heart about the testimony of John so that they may be saved:34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.
They were not following Him--but they could if they went back and got back on track from when they had rejected the messages from Moses, Scripture, John the Baptist, the works that Jesus did by the Father, etc.And John points out that the signs done were recorded so that others may believe as well:
John 20:30-31
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (NKJV)
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Yes He did.
But because you did not deal with the Old Testament background that was underlying the text you quoted, and the appeals made to those in the letter, you missed the point.
The context was those who have in the past stood for Christ, but now are in danger of falling back. They need to come boldly to the throne of grace rather than falling back.
The sacrifice was made. They should avail themselves of it, rather than turn away from so great a salvation.
Hebrews 2:1-4
1 Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (NKJV)
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Where does Jesus say that His other sheep did not yet believe? Take Cornelius and Lydia, for a couple examples. They were Gentiles, but were true believers and worshipers of God even before they heard the gospel. He was likely talking about Gentile believers like them and counted them as His sheep because He knew that those who believed Moses would also believe in Him, as He said Himself (John 5:46).
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That ignores the context of the verse. You said to @zoidar do the work to see what the world represented. And then you say the world is the elect--based on what? This is simply assuming your view. And it does not fit the details:
John 3:13-21
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
The Son of Man came down from heaven.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
He came from heaven, because God loved the world, and He came to save the world.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
The Light has come into the world, but some--who are in the world--loved darkness rather than light. So even though He came to save, not to condemn, some were condemned because they rejected the Light, which came into the world. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (NKJV)
And some in the world come to the Light. Jesus coming down from heaven, to the world, finds two different reactions, resulting in salvation or condemnation for those in the world.
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You should read contextually. This is speaking of His disciples. He even mentions Judas as the one among the disciples who was lost:
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Then He goes on to pray for all who will believe in Him through the word of His disciples:
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; (NKJV)
He is sending them into the world, just as He was sent into the world.
John 17:16-19
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
And the result will be that the world knows the Father sent Jesus: John 17:23
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. (NKJV)
Jesus is ministering to the world through His disciples.
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If he saught God he was born again man by nature does not see after the true God
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So why did Jesus classify him among those who are not yet born again?
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ (NKJV)
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Sure there is. You said the meaning of the word world in the passage had to be looked at. But you ignored that light came into the world, and some came to the light and some would not come into the light.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” (NKJV)
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He didn't specifically say he wasn't born again, but stressed he must be born again. I believe Jesus told him that personally because he was a Sheep He was going to die for. All for whom He died must be born again as an effect of His death.
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Light came into the world is correct, but the darkness, man by nature cant comprehend it, only the regenerated elect will.
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Exactly. He misses the context of scripture over and over again. He needs to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).
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Why do you deny that the world that God so loved includes those who were in spiritual darkness? If the world that God so loved didn't include them then it couldn't be said that the light came into the world with some loving darkness instead of the light. The light shone upon the world that had been in almost complete spiritual darkness before Jesus came.
God so loved the world that was in spiritual darkness that He gave His only Son to die for the sins of the whole world that was in spiritual darkness, including all people in the world who were in spiritual darkness. The Calvinist interpretation of verses like John 3:16 and 1 John 2:1-2 is nothing more than a complete joke because it denies that "the world" and "the whole world" refers to all people even though it clearly does. Those who are in spiritual darkness are clearly part of the world that God so loves. Before Jesus came Paul indicated that the vast majority of the world, the Gentiles, were "without God in the world" (Ephesians 2:11-12). But, then God sent Jesus who has shone the light into the dark world that God loved so much to send His Son to die for their sins and give them all the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life.
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Exactly. Calvinism denies that the world that God so loved included those in spiritual darkness, yet it clearly does or else it wouldn't say that light came into the world. Light came into the world that God loved in order to give those in darkness the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life. Some chose to embrace the light and some chose to love darkness instead.
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Wrong. How could he have been born again yet at that time when he didn't even understand what it meant to be born again? Why are you okay with just making things up and denying obvious truth like this?
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