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If I were presenting that as an argument, I suppose that would be accurate. But insofar as I argue that it's true, it's simply that it is the most parsimonious explanation for a minimum set of generally accepted facts and when we try to compare it to analogues the closest we can point to is things like the cargo cults of micronesia, which were built around true events that the people interpreted according to their worldview.
I was wondering why they didn't believe in the afterlife. Perhaps because the early Bible doesn't really say that everyone has an afterlife of Heaven/Hell.
I think either it wouldn't happen or it would be reasonable to say it was a coincidence - or a person chose the name based on their knowledge of the writings.
BTW there is a novel from 1949 about a person living on Mars as a leader called "The Elon"
The captive Jews in Babylon - the city known to never release its captives - would return home, and rebuild their City, which was burnt and destroyed Isaiah 44:26
We can certainly rule out delusion, or hallucinations because this is recorded as a fact of history.
However, you suggest this is all coincidence.
To ask a person to consider the possibility of coincidence here though, John, to me, is like doing the following:
A guy you met... let's call him... Dave:"I think the earth is flat, and any evidence that the earth is spherical, is either coincidental, or delusion, or hallucination is involved. If science can prove the earth is spherical, that would rule out any idea of the flat earth theory." You: There is evidence the earth is spherical.
The gravitational effects on objects and the behavior of the Earth's magnetic field also provide evidence for its spherical shape.
The variations in Earth's gravitational attraction can be measured and provide concrete evidence of the Earth's shape.
The Apollo missions returned images of the Earth from space, showing it as a blue sphere.
The curvature of the Earth can be observed from high altitudes.
The change in the position of the North Star (Polaris) as one moves north or south indicates the Earth is spherical.
Dave:"I think all that can be easily explained as delusion. Some things appear to some people as if it is so, and there is also the possibility of fraud."
What do you tell Dave, John?
Bear in mind that whatever you tell Dave, is a response to yourself, because there isn't any difference between the conversation we are having, and the one you and Dave are having, is there?
The evidence presented for Divine prophecy can only be denied if one does what Dave is doing, because if someone can give several details about an event that has not taken place, and these details are fulfilled precisely... and the person can do that repeatedly, that is definitive proof, that ability supersedes human ability... at least known.
What Dave is doing, is not really giving consideration to the evidence presented, but holds to his position that if it does not agree with him, then there is some reason why it is not true.
I could also invent an example about a limb that grew back instantly after prayer. What would skeptics say? Well I'd say that it would probably never happen anyway.
So if it can't "be explained by skeptics as coincidence, delusion, hallucinations, or fraud" then I don't think it will ever happen. I think God can intervene but "When you [God] do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all".
Well fulfilled prophecy has happened, and continues to happen even now.
So, that rules out "would probably never happen anyway".
Looks like you are running short on probabilities, John.
My point was that the novel about Titan seemed to get a lot of things right, similar to your Persia, etc, example. Yet people would just believe it is a coincidence.
We can certainly rule out delusion, or hallucinations because this is recorded as a fact of history.
However, you suggest this is all coincidence.
To ask a person to consider the possibility of coincidence here though, John, to me, is like doing the following:
A guy you met... let's call him... Dave:"I think the earth is flat, and any evidence that the earth is spherical, is either coincidental, or delusion, or hallucination is involved. If science can prove the earth is spherical, that would rule out any idea of the flat earth theory." You: There is evidence the earth is spherical.
The gravitational effects on objects and the behavior of the Earth's magnetic field also provide evidence for its spherical shape.
The variations in Earth's gravitational attraction can be measured and provide concrete evidence of the Earth's shape.
The Apollo missions returned images of the Earth from space, showing it as a blue sphere.
The curvature of the Earth can be observed from high altitudes.
The change in the position of the North Star (Polaris) as one moves north or south indicates the Earth is spherical.
Dave:"I think all that can be easily explained as delusion. Some things appear to some people as if it is so, and there is also the possibility of fraud."
What do you tell Dave, John?
My quote is about apparent supernatural phenomena and God. It isn't really related to the flat earth. I've asked some atheists about the Persia/Babylon prophecies and I'll see what they say.
BTW what do you think about my upside down Bible and Connect 4 stories? Do you think they were coincidences and had nothing to do with some kind of God? I think their likelihood is extremely low.
Why would you think I am saying that John?
Perhaps I am not understanding what you are trying to find out.
I thought you wanted to know why the Sadducees didn't believe in the afterlife... or resurrection.
You said:
I was wondering why they didn't believe in the afterlife.
How did heaven and hell get into the picture?
There is nothing in the Bible suggesting that the Sadducees didn't believe in heaven or hell. Nor that they did.
The Bible says they didn't believe in resurrection, nor angels nor spirit. Acts 23:6-8
According to secular sources, the Sadducees were known for their strict adherence to the written Torah and rejected the oral traditions of the Pharisees. One source states Josephus, says:
The Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the laws of Moses; and for that reason it is that the Sadducees reject them, and say that we are to esteem those observances to be obligatory which are in the written word, but are not to observe what are derived from the tradition of our forefathers”.
What I said to you, is the reason for this is the Sadducees are made up of some of the Jews who were in captivity to Babylon. This sect, would have deviated from the Jewish teachings, because the Torah, the Prophets and Writings contain teachings on the resurrection, angels, and spirit.
According to Nehemiah, a lot of the leading Jews - priests among them, married foreign women, and their children did not know the Jewish culture... obviously because the foreign mothers educated their children in their culture.
So, that is one explanation, as well as the fact that some of the returning Jews opposed God's teachings for greedy and selfish gain.
My point was that the novel about Titan seemed to get a lot of things right, similar to your Persia, etc, example. Yet people would just believe it is a coincidence.
My quote is about apparent supernatural phenomena and God. It isn't really related to the flat earth. I've asked some atheists about the Persia/Babylon prophecies and I'll see what they say.
The Bible says that God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and Sulphur.
Archaeological evidence suggests that a catastrophic event led to the destruction of ancient cities in the region. This event is believed to have caused intense heat, fire, and the release of sulfur.
BTW what do you think about my upside down Bible and Connect 4 stories? Do you think they were coincidences and had nothing to do with some kind of God? I think their likelihood is extremely low.
I didn't read about them.
Perhaps you can give a brief summary.
I can tell you though, that most things do have something to do with some kind of God, and are not coincidental.
There are two forces at work and both have interests in our lives - the God of darkness, and the God of light.
I accept the evidence that supports the truthfulness of the Bible.
So, I believe every word, as I have good reason to do so. I'm not skeptical about God and the Bible.
What it says has all proved true.
Did you know the Bible actually prophesied what we are seeing today, which is baffling officials about what to do about the world's crisis?
It's all there in the Bible... like reading today's news... yesterday.
What do you think about the increasing global crisis... their causes and impact?
The captive Jews in Babylon - the city known to never release its captives - would return home, and rebuild their City, which was burnt and destroyed Isaiah 44:26
We can certainly rule out delusion, or hallucinations because this is recorded as a fact of history.
However, you suggest this is all coincidence.
Biblical literature - Isaiah, Prophecy, Poetry: The Book of Isaiah, comprising 66 chapters, is one of the most profound theological and literarily expressive works in the Bible. Compiled over a period of about two centuries (the latter half of the 8th to the latter half of the 6th century bce)...
www.britannica.com
"Second Isaiah (chapters 40–66), which comes from the school of Isaiah’s disciples, can be divided into two periods: chapters 40–55, generally called Deutero-Isaiah, were written about 538 bce after the experience of the Exile; and chapters 56–66, sometimes called Trito-Isaiah (or III Isaiah), were written after the return of the exiles to Jerusalem after 538 bce."
Perhaps I could add another possibility - being "uninformed". I mean you weren't familiar with the widespread belief amongst scholars that Deutero-Isaiah was written around the time of the exile. It could also be called "ignorance" - like if some people think thunder is evidence of the gods. It is related to the existing "delusion" part. So it is easy to appear to have correct prophecies if it was written around the same time.
So I'm saying a skeptic familiar with the Deutero-Isaiah theory would say you're uninformed or ignorant - even if what you believe is the Truth.
Did you know the Bible actually prophesied what we are seeing today, which is baffling officials about what to do about the world's crisis?
It's all there in the Bible... like reading today's news... yesterday.
What Bible verses do you mean? I'm not aware of any Bible verses that involve amazingly fulfilled prophecies. Except for maybe about the Jews getting their nation back and building another temple (not sure of the exact verses though)
Biblical literature - Isaiah, Prophecy, Poetry: The Book of Isaiah, comprising 66 chapters, is one of the most profound theological and literarily expressive works in the Bible. Compiled over a period of about two centuries (the latter half of the 8th to the latter half of the 6th century bce)...
www.britannica.com
Perhaps I could add another possibility - being "uninformed". I mean you weren't familiar with the widespread belief amongst scholars that Deutero-Isaiah was written around the time of the exile.
I don't think there is any serious Bible student who is not aware of the flawed scholarly consensus, on Biblical documents... including the erroneous Documentary Hypothesis.
When people base their beliefs on presuppositions, it cannot be anything but flawed.
For example, your earlier reference to the novel from 1949 about a person living on Mars as a leader called "The Elon".
Imagine someone picked that book up in the year 2080, and Elon Musk is living on Mars as a leader called "The Elon", and the examiners of the book tells you, because the book, contains this information, it must have been written some time in the year 2080.
Would you take them seriously?
I wouldn't. I don't take those scholars seriously. They are just as flawed in their thinking, as those examiners.
I could go into a lot of information from the first five books of the Bible, through to Daniel, through to the Gospels, on the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., through to the "Pauline" texts and show how erroneous their ideas are, but that would not benefit either of us, since you obviously have made up your mind that any possibility must be true, so long as it is not possible for the Bible to be inspired of God.
It could also be called "ignorance" - like if some people think thunder is evidence of the gods. It is related to the existing "delusion" part. So it is easy to appear to have correct prophecies if it was written around the same time.
So I'm saying a skeptic familiar with the Deutero-Isaiah theory would say you're uninformed or ignorant - even if what you believe is the Truth.
The author was an atheist and I suspect that is partly why he didn't involve the number 7. It should be "what's 6 times 7". I think 7 is related to God and 6 is related to man. So I think it is related to life being about the interaction with God and man. And again only I felt this as an interaction with an intelligent force. Everyone else would see it as a coincidence. But like I said, Connect 4 sets always have 21 pieces of each colour. Though eventually I tracked down the set (a non-original brand) and it had 23 of each colour but then they must have lost 4 red pieces.
It's interesting.
Since God is the ultimate Mathematician, and numbers are very much a part of his creation, the number 42 may indeed be significant, and you might be able to work out a lot of things with particular numbers.
I'm just curious as to know why you think 7 is related to God and 6 is related to man.
What Bible verses do you mean? I'm not aware of any Bible verses that involve amazingly fulfilled prophecies. Except for maybe about the Jews getting their nation back and building another temple (not sure of the exact verses though)
That's understandable. The truth isn't as popular as what is common.
Written between 40 C.E. and 65 C.E., are these prophetic utterances: Matthew 24:3-14 3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy [presence], and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them...
7 ...nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places [and there shall be great earthquakes, and in divers places famines and pestilences - Luke 21:11]. 8 But all these things are the beginning of travail.
12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold. 13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [inhabited earth] for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will be present.
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boasters, proud, verbally abusive, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, savage, haters of good,
4 betrayers, reckless, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.
13 while evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
There is clear Biblical evidence as to when the last days of this present system began - that is, when Jesus' presence began, and it coincides with the things Jesus specified, and are seen in the historical timeline of the 19th century.
I know what you are thinking, so before you start that motor, and speed off, let me punch a few tires for you.
There are two common objections usually echoed by skeptics.
There have always been wars, earthquakes, pestilences, etc.
The "seeming" increase is due to technology making news widespread.
True, there has always been wars, famines, etc.
Jesus however, was giving a sign that would bear a mark that would be identifiable - that is, it is made up of distinct components, with all the features combined.
To impress on your mind what that looks like, and how it punctures the skeptics' tires....
Someone tells you, they will be arriving on a unique and distinct bus.
It will be red, and while, with a yellow lightning bolt painted all around the center.
It will have gold windshield wipers; gold rims with large black bolts...
You get the picture.
You aren't looking for just any bus. You're looking for the bus.
Jesus specified nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom; earthquakes, food shortages and pestilences, in diverse places - one place after another. Also, increased lawlessness, and lack of love. Wars
Similarly, World War II (1939–1945) involved even more countries, caused massive destruction, and resulted in the Holocaust and the use of nuclear weapons.
More recently, the 21st century has seen a resurgence of international tensions and conflicts. For instance, the article by Noah Smith notes that India and Pakistan have been engaged in a significant escalation of hostilities, which some observers now consider a full-scale war rather than just a standoff. Additionally, the global displacement crisis has reached historic levels, with over 122 million people forcibly displaced due to conflict, persecution, and disaster, according to the United Nations.
World War I claimed an estimated 16 million lives. The influenza epidemic that swept the world in 1918 killed an estimated 50 million people. One fifth of the world's population was attacked by this deadly virus. Within months, it had killed more people than any other illness in recorded history.
The plague emerged in two phases. In late spring of 1918, the first phase, known as the "three-day fever," appeared without warning. Few deaths were reported. Victims recovered after a few days. When the disease surfaced again that fall, it was far more severe. Scientists, doctors, and health officials could not identify this disease which was striking so fast and so viciously, eluding treatment and defying control. Some victims died within hours of their first symptoms. Others succumbed after a few days; their lungs filled with fluid and they suffocated to death.
The 1957–1958 Asian flu pandemic was a global pandemic of influenza A virus subtype H2N2 that originated in Guizhou in Southern China. The number of excess deaths caused by the pandemic is estimated to be 1–4 million around the world (1957–1958 and probably beyond), making it one of the deadliest pandemics in history. A decade later, a reassorted viral strain H3N2 further caused the Hong Kong flu pandemic (1968–1970).
The Russian invasion of Ukraine disrupted global food supplies, as Ukraine was the fourth-largest exporter of corn and wheat before the conflict. This led to inflation and scarcity of these commodities in dependent countries. Additionally, climate change has affected agriculture, leading to decreased global food reserves. The World Economic Forum's Global Risks Report 2023 highlighted food supply crises as an ongoing global risk, with the Russian invasion of Ukraine and crop failures from climate change worsening worldwide hunger and malnutrition.
The State of Food Security and Nutrition in the World (SOFI) report published in 2024 revealed that around 733 million people faced hunger in 2023, with the number of undernourished people remaining stubbornly high for three consecutive years . The report emphasized the need for increased and more cost-effective financing to address food insecurity and malnutrition, highlighting the complex challenges of malnutrition in all its forms .
Lawlessness
Recent data indicates that violence is indeed increasing worldwide, with global conflict rates rising significantly. According to the ACLED Conflict Index, there has been a 25% increase in political violence incidents recorded in the past 12-month period, with over 194,000 political violence events recorded worldwide from December 2023 to November 2024.
Global Conflict Rates: The rise in conflict has been dramatic, with global conflict rates increasing by 12% in 2023, with more than 15,000 additional attacks, bombings, and assaults compared to 2022.
Homicide Rates: Global homicides hit a record high in 2021, with 458,000 homicides reported, partly linked to economic repercussions from the coronavirus pandemic and a rise in organized crime and gang-related and socio-political violence in several countries.
Gang Violence in Haiti: In Haiti, gang violence has claimed 4,864 lives between October and June, with violence spreading beyond Port-au-Prince into surrounding regions.
Gun Violence: American gun violence is spreading globally, with targeted violence by firearm becoming a growing threat worldwide. Research shows that many of these incidents were directly linked to examples set by U.S. shooters.
Is there a need to add anything more? Not really, but so as to be fair... Earthquakes
The problem with this is that Jesus did not have an interest in how many quakes were reported, but rather, the fact that there would be reports of significant quakes in diverse places - one place after another.
That is exactly what we are seeing.
What matters here, is not why there is an increase in the intensity or cause of damage, or loss of life, but the fact that earthquakes will be noticeable in various places.
Nor does it matter if the increase in earthquakes is largely due to improved detection and reporting capabilities. The fact is, the increase in earthquakes is noticeable... whether by observation, or hearing reports.
The annual number of “great” earthquakes nearly tripled over the last decade, providing a reminder to Americans that unruptured faults like those in the northwest United States might be due for a Big One.
Between 2004 and 2014, 18 earthquakes with magnitudes of 8.0 or more rattled subduction zones around the globe. That's an increase of 265 percent over the average rate of the previous century, which saw 71 great quakes, according to a report to the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America this week in Vancouver, British Columbia.
I haven't even gotten into 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 13, and I believe you have two flat tires.
So, we can identify the 'bus'. There isn't another 'bus' like it, that has gone prior. You cannot identify one that bears all the features.
Hence, our 'bus' arrived in the 19th century, and God's people have identified it, and pointed it out.
How open-minded are you, John, to accepting this?
So your headings are Wars, Pestilences, Food Shortages, Lawlessness, and Earthquakes.
All of those things would be relevant to some degree to just about any time in history. It's not like it foretold some kind of new technology, etc (like the guns you mention).
On the other hand there is this:
Daniel 12:4
But I want you to roll up this scroll, Daniel. Seal it until the time of the end. Many people will go here and there to increase their knowledge.
Unlike the things you mentioned I think that verse actually gives a lot of insight into the present day. Even a few centuries ago people travelled about the same - with horses, boats and walking. Now lots of people are driving pretty large distances every day ("go here and there") and sometimes thousands of miles at a time. And our knowledge has also greatly increased in the last few centuries.
I learnt about that verse from a book my Dad had. I really liked the illustrations. You need to log in to "borrow" the ebook. (the pic is from page 412)
I don't think there is any serious Bible student who is not aware of the flawed scholarly consensus, on Biblical documents... including the erroneous Documentary Hypothesis.
So your prophecies can be explained by the scholarly "consensus". Surely there is a reasonable chance that the consensus is correct and there is no supernatural explanation required to explain those prophecies...
Yes and I think skeptics are wrong when they reject my upside-down Bible and Connect 4 examples but from their point of view they are being reasonable.
But if you try and read it with the cover upright the text inside is upside down - or if you read it the right way up the other people see the cover upside down.
The author was an atheist and I suspect that is partly why he didn't involve the number 7. It should be "what's 6 times 7". I think 7 is related to God and 6 is related to man. So I think it is related to life being about the interaction with God and man. And again only I felt this as an interaction with an intelligent force. Everyone else would see it as a coincidence. But like I said, Connect 4 sets always have 21 pieces of each colour. Though eventually I tracked down the set (a non-original brand) and it had 23 of each colour but then they must have lost 4 red pieces.
It's interesting.
Since God is the ultimate Mathematician, and numbers are very much a part of his creation, the number 42 may indeed be significant, and you might be able to work out a lot of things with particular numbers.
I'm just curious as to know why you think 7 is related to God and 6 is related to man.
The number seven is one of the most significant numbers of the Bible because it is the number of spiritual perfection. It is the number which is stamped on every work of God. We can observe the importance of this number in nature too. Be it physics, chemistry or music we can see they are all based on this number of God’s work. All music that is created is based on seven basic notes of music, the eight note is just a higher or lower octave. If light is passed through a prism then it splits into seven parts, this is known by a very famous abbreviation VIBGYOR. There are seven basic crystal systems in minerals. Even in the periodic table we can observe that there are seven levels of periodicity
...
The number 6 is significant in the Bible because it is the number of Man, the number of imperfection in man’s work. It is a human number. It implies man’s existence sans God, sans Christ. The number 6 is concerned and related only to man
So your headings are Wars, Pestilences, Food Shortages, Lawlessness, and Earthquakes.
All of those things would be relevant to some degree to just about any time in history. It's not like it foretold some kind of new technology, etc (like the guns you mention).
I understand my post had a lot in it, so one could be tempted to skim, and miss the part that proves this to be false.
You might want to go back and read it, so that you see why, and provide the time period in history that matches the prophecy.
There is none.
@CoreyD
Matthew 24:7b says "there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places". Famines in particular have been extremely severe in modern times even though you didn't show this.
e.g.
1995–2000 North Korean famine. Scholars estimate 600,000 died of starvation (other estimates range from 200,000 to 3.5 million).
1998–2004 Second Congo War. 2.7 million people died, mostly from starvation and disease
You mentioned the 1918–1920 flu pandemic. That was more than a century ago - I thought the "end times" would be more recent than over a century ago. WW1 is also over a century ago and WW2 was 80 years ago.
Also those prophecies say they are signs of the end times. How long are the end times? Some of your evidence was from more than a century ago. The end times is about when the world ends. So how long do you think it would take for these end times to finish? Another century?
@CoreyD
Matthew 24:7b says "there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places". Famines in particular have been severe in modern times even though you didn't show this.
e.g.
1995–2000 North Korean famine. Scholars estimate 600,000 died of starvation (other estimates range from 200,000 to 3.5 million).
1998–2004 Second Congo War. 2.7 million people died, mostly from starvation and disease
Its a tough one isn't it.
I know it hasn't gone over your head. I tried to make it as simple as possible.
Jesus gave a sign bearing a mark that would be identifiable - that is, it would be distinct. Made up of distinct components, with all the features combined.
The 'bus' is not just a red bus.
If there is no yellow lightning bolt painted all around the center, that's not the 'bus' you are looking for. Even though it's red.
If there is no gold windshield wipers and gold rims, that's not the 'bus' you are looking for.
If you saw a bus with gold windshield wipers, but it doesn't have red, and white, and there is no yellow lightning bolt painted all around the center, forget about that 'bus'.
All the features must be in place - combined as one.
Hence, nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom; earthquakes, food shortages and pestilences, in diverse places - one place after another; Also, increased lawlessness, and lack of love, makes the sign, that marks the time of Jesus' presence.
1995–2000 is part of that period called the last days.
Not the last day. The last days.
The end of the world ends the last days.
The last days began at a point in time, and continues until the end of the world.
The sign involves all the distinct components Jesus mentioned - nation and kingdom against kingdom; earthquakes, food shortages and pestilences, in diverse places - one place after another; Also, increased lawlessness, and lack of love, in addition what Paul mentioned at 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 13... which are evident in the 19th century, and continues through the 20th and 21st century.
No man knows when the end will be. Matthew 24:36
So Christians keep on the watch for the things prophesied to occur, during the last days, which indicates the climax. Matthew 24:42; Mark 13:33
You mentioned the 1918–1920 flu pandemic. That was more than a century ago - I thought the "end times" would be more recent than over a century ago. WW1 is also over a century ago and WW2 was 80 years ago.
What may I ask, made you assume that the "end times" would be more recent?
Surely, you aren't examine Bible prophecies.
Prophecy in the book of Revelation, which coincides with the sign Jesus gave, spoke of four horsemen. Revelation 6:1-8
The first horseman represents Jesus when he was crowned king.
He rides forth, and is followed by a red horse... depicting warfare, as is indicated by the great sword given its rider, and the words "Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth".
Another horse rides forth, representing famine, and this is followed by another rider on a pale horse, representing deadly plague - pestilences.
Picture it as if you were making a game, or movie.
A white horse suddenly appears, galloping forth. Its rider is given a crown, and he rides out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
As the dust stirred up by the horses hooves begin to settle, a red horse emerges. Its rider caries a large sword. "Yah". He charges forth bent on taking away peace from the earth, and cause a great slaughter as people kill each other.
Next, a black horse... etc.
This is obviously a period of time, when these horsemen ride, and it is interesting that war closely followed Jesus enthronement as king, since the first sign he mentioned was, 'nation will be against nation, and kingdom against kingdom', and secular history verifies... The 20th century saw the outbreak of two world wars, which were unprecedented in scale and devastation. World War I (1914–1918) involved nearly all the major powers of the time
Similarly, World War II (1939–1945) involved even more countries, caused massive destruction
Notably, all the events are happening practically simultaneously in the same period of time, thus clearly being identifiable, like a fingerprint of Jesus sign.
There can be no denying it... but skeptics will.
No man knows how long the last days will run for.
However, Jesus disciples asked only for a sign, that would let them know when Jesus would be present as king in God's kingdom.
At that time he would fulfill Psalm 110:2
Some of your evidence was from more than a century ago. The end times is about when the world ends. So how long do you think it would take for these end times to finish? Another century?
Where might I ask, did you get the idea 'the end times is about when the world ends'?
Did someone tell you that, or did you just assume it?
Note the 's' on times, and days.
It's a period of time, and from the scriptures in Matthew 24, 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 13, and 2 Peter 3:3, 4, it's by no means a short period of time.
So that is before the horses of war, famine and pestilence - which you said is happening now (or over a century ago like the flu pandemic/WW1)... so has Jesus being crowned king happened already?
Notably, all the events are happening practically simultaneously in the same period of time, thus clearly being identifiable, like a fingerprint of Jesus sign.
Note the 's' on times, and days.
It's a period of time, and from the scriptures in Matthew 24, 2 Timothy 3:1-5, 13, and 2 Peter 3:3, 4, it's by no means a short period of time.
So that is before the horses of war, famine and pestilence - which you said is happening now (or over a century ago like the flu pandemic/WW1)... so has Jesus being crowned king happened already?
Sorry, if I am going too fast for you, John.
I'll slow down a bit more. Please take your time and follow step by step.
Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall bethe sign of thy [Greek presence], and of the end of the world?
The disciples knew that Jesus had returned to heaven and sat at God's right hand, thereby awaiting that time when His enemies should be placed as a footstool for His feet. Hebrews 10:12, 13
They knew that time would arrive at some point, and so since they cannot see what's going on in heaven, they wanted a sign to let them know when it arrived - that is, when Jesus is ruling as king... when he would "rule in the midst of his enemies". Psalm 110:1, 2
Jesus gave them the sign - the 'bus' to look for, so that when the sign - the 'bus' arrives or is seen, they would have unmistakable and clearly identifiable proof that the time of Jesus ruling - his presence, was here.
Matthew 24 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them... 7 ...nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places [and there shall be great earthquakes, and in divers places famines and pestilences - Luke 21:11]. 8 But all these things are the beginning of travail. 12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold. 13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [inhabited earth] for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
There has never in history been a war on an international scale as seen in the war that exploded in 1914, and so it was named World War 1 - the first world war.
World War I (1914–1918)
That was followed closely by the Spanish influenza (1918–1920) which swept the world, killing an estimated 50 million people - one fifth of the world's population.
Closely following that... less than two decades, World War II struck (1939–1945) involved even more countries than the previous war (World War I), and caused massive destruction.
During this same period, the Asian flu pandemic (1957–1958) was a global pandemic of influenza, killing an estimated 1–4 million people around the world.
A decade later, a reassorted viral strain H3N2 further caused the Hong Kong flu pandemic (1968–1970).
global food crises (2022 and 2023, and ongoing) marked by significant food price inflation and major food shortages in several regions, including Sub-Saharan Africa, Iran, Sri Lanka, Sudan, and Iraq;
the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022, which disrupted global food supplies, and which was an escalation of the conflict between the two countries which began in 2014 (2014-2025) The fighting has caused hundreds of thousands of military casualties and tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilian casualties.;
a 2023 Global Report on Food Crises (GRFC) indicating that nearly 282 million people in 59 countries experienced high levels of acute hunger, a significant increase from the previous year;
a 2023 World Economic Forum's Global Risks Report highlighting food supply crises as an ongoing global risk, with the Russian invasion of Ukraine and crop failures from climate change worsening worldwide hunger and malnutrition;
extreme weather events, and economic shocks driving food insecurity;
a 2024 report from the State of Food Security and Nutrition in the World (SOFI) revealing that around 733 million people faced hunger in 2023, with the number of undernourished people remaining stubbornly high for three consecutive years (2023-2025);
homicides hit a record high in 2021;
global conflict rates increasing by 12% in 2023, with more than 15,000 additional attacks, bombings, and assaults;
So, the sign Jesus gave would be observable to his followers living at this time, and they would know that the bus has arrived, in the 20th century.
They would know that Christ is present as king. His rule has begun.
A chart might help at this point.
At this point, let me make a correction in something I said. I said 19th century, but I meant 20th century. I often make the mistake of associate 1900s with 19th. Sorry.
So to give you a mental picture of the window of time...
During the same period, we have all the other features mentioned before. Matthew 24:3-14
3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy [presence], and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them...
7 ...nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places [and there shall be great earthquakes, and in divers places famines and pestilences - Luke 21:11]. 8 But all these things are the beginning of travail.
12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold. 13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [inhabited earth] for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will be present.
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boasters, proud, verbally abusive, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, savage, haters of good,
4 betrayers, reckless, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.
13 while evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
This is the period of time, thus far, where all the features of the sign, combined, are distinctly present.
Yes. The last days began in the early 1900s, when Christ was crowned, and began his conquest in the midst of his enemies.
No.
The sign with all the distinct components marked by all the features combined, do not match an earlier period.
The sign matches that small window of time above - Early 1900s forward.
The last days end as described here.
Matthew 24:30-33 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Hence, Jesus' followers, take to heart Jesus words... 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
The end of the world is near.
The signs of the times indicate this.
So, while we do not know the day nor the hour, from the clear markers, we have an idea of how close it is.
There are other prophecies as well.
For example, the prophecy in Daniel, which tells us there is no other world power to come, after the eighth. Which is the one currently in power. Revelation 17:9-11
9 The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
Soon... Very soon, we expect Christ's kingdom, to crush all the kingdoms of this world, and rule the earth. Daniel 2:44, 45
This is actually an illustration I did some years ago. The words are removed.
It's all quite exciting and fascinating to me, really.
The question is, John... since there is no denying the evidence, what stand will you take?
That was followed closely by the Spanish influenza (1918–1920) which swept the world, killing an estimated 50 million people - one fifth of the world's population.
In 1918 the global population was about 1.8 billion and 50 million is less than 3% of that. Apparently about 500 million people were infected which is about 28% of the global population.
Is there any evidence that Jesus' rule began about a century ago besides what's in the Bible? I mean have there been any miracles which coincided with Jesus' presence like in the gospels? Or the miracles in Exodus, etc?
In 1918 the global population was about 1.8 billion and 50 million is less than 3% of that. Apparently about 500 million people were infected which is about 28% of the global population.
Is there any evidence that Jesus' rule began about a century ago besides what's in the Bible? I mean have there been any miracles which coincided with Jesus' presence like in the gospels? Or the miracles in Exodus, etc?
You and about 98% of the world, but Jesus did not give this information to the world. Nor did he say the world would believe. His disciples approached him privately and what he said was for believers, and those with an honest heart, and humble.
What is undeniable is the fact that Jesus' sign matches the period from the early 1900s till now.
You cannot find a match any earlier in history. You tried, but came up empty, so your disagreeing is not because you have evidence against it.
Your disagreeing is because you don't want to accept the evidence.
That reveals whether you are open-minded, or not John... whether or not you are biased against any evidence for God and the source of the Bible... whether or not you willfully deny.
So, it's like a mirror each skeptic can look at themselves in, and it give us a picture as well.
Let's say that is true. Your reasoning is that therefore Jesus has been ruling as king. Is there any evidence at all that Jesus has been ruling as king since about 1914 besides war, famine, and pestilence? (and lawlessness) In the Bible there are lots of miracles when God and Jesus are present. Perhaps you also believe in a non-obvious God since I don't see any evidence that Jesus is ruling as king besides the war, famine, and pestilence (and lawlessness). Also I don't know of any church that has announced that since 1914 Jesus has been ruling as king (as opposed to his presence before 1914). Surely churches would have realised it. Or I guess you're in the 2% that know that Jesus is now ruling somehow, in a very subtle way.
It's not reasoning.
It's what Jesus said.
The Bible foretold a future installment of Jesus as king. Psalm 110:1; Isaiah 9:6, 7; Matthew 22:43, 44; Mark 12:36; Luke 1:28-33; Luke 20:42, 43; Acts 2:34, 35; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Hebrews 10:12, 13
Jesus followers knew this. Matthew 20:21
Hence they asked for a sign when that happens.
Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy [Greek presence], and of the end of the world?
Jesus gave the sign.
Jesus followers believe what he says.
Yes, but that's between Jesus and his followers.
Please see John 14:26; John 15:26; John 16:13. There is a prophecy in the Bible which is connected to Jesus' presence.
Jesus also directs the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom, and the evidence for that can be seen. Matthew 24:14
However, attributing that to him, is not something the world in darkness will do. Thick gloom of Satan's world prevent the masses from seeing.
If they could see it, they would respond differently.
You know how those war planes dropped flyers warning that they were about to bomb?
Just imagine for example seeing clouds all over the world form this massage...
Something like that might catch the attention of 99.9% of earth's inhabitants.
The 1% being "too far gone".
Satan doesn't want the world to see 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4, and because the vast majority loves the darkness John 3:19, they won't.
In the Bible there are lots of miracles when God and Jesus are present. Perhaps you also believe in a non-obvious God since I don't see any evidence that Jesus is ruling as king besides the war, famine, and pestilence.
Jesus didn't perform miracles to be recognized.
Recall that he told persons, "tell no one". Matthew 8:4
The purpose of those miracles was due to Christ's compassion... he being “moved with pity“. Matthew 20:34; Mark 1:41
Even so, his miracles did demonstrate that he was God's son. John 20:30, 31
This however, did not move those who were deniers. John 4:48; John 12:36-43
From what we are seeing here, they wouldn't have moved you, John. Isn't that so?
Jesus said...
“Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will never believe.” John 4:48
Notice what we read at Matthew 16:1-4... 1The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. 2He replied, ‘When evening comes, you say, “It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,” 3and in the morning, “Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.” You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.[a] 4A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.’ Jesus then left them and went away.
They did not want a sign.
They were wicked, and wanted to waste Jesus time, and at the same time deny everything he did, in order to label him a false prophet.
Jesus left them at that point.
My time has come John, Is there another question you wanted to ask... on something else, that is?
Also I don't know of any church that has announced that since 1914 Jesus has been ruling as king (as opposed to his presence before 1914). Surely churches would have realised it. Or I guess you're in the 2% that know that Jesus is now ruling somehow, in a very subtle way.
The 2% is not me.
The 2$ are Jesus' followers on earth, as well as millions of others who are not currently following Jesus, but do believe some of the things Jesus' followers teach.
They number more than Jesus' followers, by far.
1. The Bible teaches this about the timing of the end of days.
““But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.”
Matthew 24:36-41 NASB1995
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days befo
bible.com
Only the Father knows.
2. There are many false prophesies attempting to pin the time and duration of the end of times out there considering that, you guessed it, only the Father knows.
3. From the beginning of History of mankind we have been at some kind of war or another or had some kind of calamity or another for 93% or more of this time. So to use wars or famine to try to predict the end of times is futile. So to your question John, the end of times have been coming since the beginning of time. But the Father knows the time.
So those other things have overwhelming evidence but the most important part has no obvious evidence? BTW in all other instances kings have a power over the world. It seems your saying that in this instance there is nothing happening that non-believers could detect. I mean actions besides war, famine, and pestilence - unless Jesus the king is responsible for that.
I don't see a need to involve the supernatural to explain the conversion of people - people get converted to all types of religions and cults and this can be explained with secular psychology.
Jesus didn't perform miracles to be recognized.
...
Recall that he told persons, "tell no one". Matthew 8:4
The purpose of those miracles was due to Christ's compassion... he being “moved with pity“. Matthew 20:34; Mark 1:41
I think a lot of people see his miracles as evidence that he is God. There was also the miracle of Jesus making the fig tree wither. I'm not sure all of his miracles are because of compassion.
This however, did not move those who were deniers. John 4:48; John 12:36-43
From what we are seeing here, they wouldn't have moved you, John. Isn't that so?
It would be different if I was an eye witness to a miracle - like many people in the gospel stories. And like I said I believe the upside-down Bible and Connect 4 events were miracles.
