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What's the use of faith alone?

XrxrX

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It's not a stumbling block; it's the understanding of how it works. You're not saved by works of the law, as if pretending to be holy actually made you holy. But you are saved by being holy nonetheless. You're not saved by the mere act of faith, of having faith, alone, but by what faith means. Faith means union with God, connection to the Vine, apart from whom you can do nothing. And that, He, is the source of one's holiness, the only source.

Grace, faith, salvation cannot be separated from being just and living accordingly. The difference between the old and new covenants is all about something new, on a newly revealed and grand scale: grace, love, the Spirit of God living within us, with all three being intrinsically related to each other. And the purpose of this and of your very existence is to become like Him. Faith is the gateway to that path, that way, that God. That's the path we must be on, and remain on, and return to if we stray in order to become who we were created to be. That's our salvation.
You have created a doctrinal "potion" in a theological test tube here, like so many do leading to misinterpretations. Faith is trusting God. The "faith of Abraham", which is what James is referencing in the contested verse is what is in view here. It isn't Abraham's raised hand, with the knife in it that justified him.. it's the trust that he raised his hand in. It wasn't Rahab's raised hand on the door, to open it that justified her.. it was the trust she raised her hand in. It isn't your raised hand, to do good works prepared in advance by Jesus that justify your faith, it is your faith evidenced in your raised hand, that justifies your action. What is unfortunate, is the whole discussion, the disagreement distracts from the reality, which is that we Absolutely are to produce fruit, to live as we are Called... Holy. All the behavioral mandates are serious, they are binding and they are the inspired word of God.. they are non negotiable. But, they are Not predicate to Salvation.. which is predicate on One Thing Alone.... the Shed Blood of Jesus Christ. This idea that a Born Again believer, is bound to embrace sin and the filth they were saved from because they are secure in the Salvation God provides and sustains, is reprehensible. It doesn't honor God, it honors man. It lays the onus of Salvation on man... nothing less than blasphemy. God ALONE sustains our salvation. He ALONE gives it, keeps it and redeems it. THIS... is trust. THAT is faith. And that is what glorifies God.
 
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The Liturgist

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Confession" another, John is speaking of "admitting we are sinners", not "confessing a specific sin", the only place it says to "confess" in scripture is to each other, as believers.. when we sin against Each Other. There is ZERO mandate to confess to a priest, especially for "forgiveness" that was paid for at the Cross. So yeah, these are irreconcilable differences, and they are due to rank mishandling of scripture.. which is an absolute tragedy.

I did not speak about Auricular confession (confessing individual sins), and I would note that among the ancient churches, it is not a major part of the East Syriac tradition, and only the North Slavonic churches normally practice auricular confession on a monthly or weekly basis, before partaking of the Eucharist at that high frequency. That being said it is extremely spiritually healthy, is nowhere prohibited and can allow one to overcome a large number of spiritual ailments, not just sins, but other forms of suffering - for example, a retired Orthodox bishop relieved me of a lifelong fear of hearses. Additionally Orthodox clergy do not automatically penance people who go to auricular confession.

I would also note in some cases the Orthodox have used a general confession within an auricular setting, for example, due to the language barrier, or in the case of St. John of Kronstadt who sought to correct (and played a major role in correcting) the infrequent communion and confession that predominated in the Russian church at the turn of the 20th century, he had the great many pilgrims who showed up at his parish, which was if I recall primarily a mariner’s parish, in the port city of Kronstadt near St. Petersburg, shout their sins with maximum force together, so that the noise of their collective sins would drown out the sound and obscure the sins being confessed individually, because he lacked the time to hear the confessions of the very large number of pilgrims who visited his church.

On the other hand, various wonderworking Orthodox saints have been sought out as confessors and advisors, based in part on their ability, through prayer and asceticism, to know things about the spiritual state of those who seek them out. One of these, Elder Ephraim, I was blessed to meet personally, along with another who is still alive, and additionally, several famous examples include St. Seraphim of Sarov and St. Joseph the Hesychast (whose skull I was blessed to venerate in 2015). Venerating a skull I expect will seem like an odd practice to a low church Protestant such as yourself, but it was a profound moment, because in the beatiful and incorrupt relics of this saint, one could sense theosis at work - this man was glorified through the grace of the Holy Spirit, and we can also hope for such glorification if we are willing to repent, to pick up our cross and follow Christ. Specifically St. Joseph was a Hesychast, a subset of Orthodox monks who practice continuous prayer as per the commandment of Christ to pray without ceasing.

However, i was specifically talking about general confession in my post, which I believe was fairly obvious, since obviously the entire congregation declaring ourselves to be the chief of sinners is a general confession of sin and not a confession of individual sins to a priest privately. The early church appears to have confessed sins to each other publicly, but this practice, while in theory desirable, would be dangerous at present due to the risk of such confessions being used against the confessor, and for this reason the pastor-penitent relationship is protected.

It is the case that those ordained by the Church have the ability to bind and loose sins, according to Matthew 16:18, and in most Protestant churches, this happens primarily during general confessions such as during the Anglican confessions at Morning Prayer and Evensong, if a priest is present, or during the Holy Communion service.

This doctrine in no way undermines the soteriological reality that Christ made Himself a ransom for our sins on the Cross so as to remake man in His image, becoming the New Adam, the first-fruits of the Resurrection, for by his voluntary and all-sufficient sacrifice, death was swallowed up in victory. This however is not a license to sin. Additionally, it is not the belief of any church that has auricular confession that (a) the sins are forgiven by the pastor, or (b) the confession is made to the pastor - rather, the confession is made to Christ with the pastor as a witness and advisor, and the pastor acts in persone Christie in reassuring the penitent of their forgiveness, and prays that based on what our Lord taught in Matthew chapter 16, that the penitent be forgiven for the sins.

It should also be noted that auricular confession is not a Roman Catholic idea - the rejection of it based on a perceived association with Roman Catholicism suggests that, unfortunately, you are still engaging in the false dichotomy of Roman Catholicism vs. Protestantism, which ignores the role of both the Orthodox Churches (due to a decline in the rates of confession in the Orthodox churches, it is probably the case that most confessions that happen are happening in those Orthodox churches such as the North Slavic and Romanian churches where one is expected to do it with great frequency) and the liturgical churches of the West, such as Old Catholics and traditional liturgical Protestant churches including Lutherans (Martin Luther leaned towards regarding Confession as a third sacrament, except it did not quite meet his definition since it lacked something equivalent, as he saw it, to the water of baptism of the body and blood of the Eucharist, but nonetheless auricular confession is widely practiced among Lutherans, and among Anglicans it is also not uncommon, the Anglican view of it being ”All may, some should, none must.”

Of course Western clergy tend to have a Roman approach to auricular confession - specifically, penancing everyone who confesses, which is not the practice among the Eastern churches, where a penance is applied only if the confessor deems it is of specific benefit to the penitent.
 
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The Liturgist

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Faith is trusting God.

No, not quite - faith involves trust, but it also involves fidelity - faithful behavior towards God. It entails a relationship, wherein we pledge an allegiance to God through the vows made at Baptism (by the sponsor on behalf of an infant and directly in the case of adults). We are faithful to God, and God is faithful in keeping His promises to us. This is what faith is.
 
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fhansen

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Appeals to authority are not inherently fallacious, due to the epistemological inability to prove first principles; rather, what is fallacious is an appeal to unqualified authority.
Yes, and it's equally fallacious to appeal to unqualifed authorities when interpreting Scripture, such as to all the private interpreters that were engendered by the Reformation, often resulting in novel doctrine as if God couldn't keep the basics of the faith straight in His church for the 1500 years prior. And as if knowing the faith means nothing much more than picking up a Book centuries after the fact and having full and perfect knowledge of what it means to say by the mere reading of it. Equally erudite and learned biblical scholars et al often disagree, often plausibly, on biblical meaning.
 
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XrxrX

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Not exactly generational, since the doctrine of the Real Presence was not a controversy in the Early Church - nearly everything else was, including iconoclasm, Nestorianism, Arianism, Monothelitism, and more obscure errors such as Apthartodocetism (which is not the same as Docetism or even really related to it but was rather an anti-Theopaschite movement embraced by Emperor Justinian after he stopped pursuing reunification with the Oriental Orthodox and instead unleashed a massive persecution of them), and many other issues. Indeed of the ancient sects the only one to deny the real presence was the Messalians, whose views on worship were similar to those of the early Quakers, albeit more extreme.

Rather, the rejection of the Real Presence among otherwise liturgical Christians began during the Reformation, among Calvinists and Zwinglians, but not the Lutherans, or many Anglicans of the High Church variety (including all of the non-juring Scottish Episcopalians, who removed the Black Rubric and inserted the Epiclesis from the Divine Liturgy of St. James) but amusingly enough, even the Calvinists believed in the Real Presence in a spiritual way, just not in a physical way, and Calvinists, Anglicans and even Zwinglians believed the Eucharist was essential for salvation, they simply denied the real presence.

The idea of baptism and the Eucharist as not being a means of grace but as mere ordinances, or worse, as optional, emerged first among the Radical Reformation such as the Anabaptists, and later among the Quakers with their semi-Messalianism and among related movements, and then became more widely believe due to the growth of Restoratoinist churches such as the Adventists and the New Thought movement (Christian Science), the latter rejecting the sacraments altogether.

You are correct that the inability of Christians to come to an agreement about the Eucharist is tragic, but your timeline is wrong, since the Twelve Apostles were not in error in interpreting it literally, and nothing in the Scriptural sense suggests they were; the idea that they are is frankly scandalous, and it also contradicts the texts of the Institution Narrative. Christ our God did not say “this symbolizes my body” or “This is a memorial of my body” or even in the case of Receptionists “this will become my body when you put it in your mouth” but rather “This is my Body”, which is why Martin Luther to his credit carved that in a table at the Marburg Colloquy, as my Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian will confirm.

”Do this in remembrance of me” is further misunderstood by those unacquainted with the original Greek. The Greek word translated as remembrance, anamnesis, has the sense of recapitulation; literally it means something akin to “Put yourself in this moment.” What it signifies is that in the Eucharist, we participate in the Last Supper with Christ and His Disciples, which is why the sacrament is called Holy Communion, because we are in communion with the entire church Triumphant and Militant through that action.


Thus, the minority of Christians who have rejected the Eucharist and Baptism since the 16th century are in error, which is tragic; their beliefs are not those of the early church (as is attested by all liturgical texts and commentaries on the Eucharist going back to the Didache and St. Justin Martyr, and including the various ancient anaphoras such as that of Addai and Mari, and of the Church in Alexandria, with second century attestation, the Anaphora of the Apostoles, included by St. Hippolytus of Rome in his Apostolic Tradition, which in various forms has always been used in Antioch and Ethiopia, being the basis for the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and under the belief, probably inaccurate, that it was once used in Rome (it seems probable that St. Hippolytus included it because then, as now, the Antiochian liturgy was the most common in general, since what we now call the Roman Canon if related to any anaphora was related to that of Alexandria, but is very possibly an isolate, and was clearly in use in the fourth century and probably the third based on other evidence, and the Roman church back then was extremely conservative, usually being the last church to adopt any new liturgical practice, so the idea that they would switch Eucharistic prayers is not credible, but this did not stop Annibale Bugnini from including a modified version of the abbreviated form of the anaphora in the Novus Ordo Missae of 1969 which in turn was copied by several liberal mainline Protestant churches in the disastrous liturgical reforms of the 1970s and 80s, but that is another matter.

My point is that all ancient liturgical texts, and all church fathers, from St. John Chrysostom and his friend Theodore of Mopsuestia (who is sometimes claimed to have not believed in the real presence, but he did, he just had a strange idea about how the consecration occurred*.

The belief is also adhered to by nearly all Lutherans and by most High Church Anglicans (indeed many would say a belief in the Real Presence is a key indicator of the altitude of one’s Anglican churchmanship) such as my friends @Jipsah and @Shane R.

Nor, even among those Protestants who reject a belief in the Real Presence is the belief that the Eucharist is not salvific universal - many Reformed theologians regard it as a means of grace and believe Christ is spiritually present, if not physically present.

But if one finds oneself lamenting that the twelve disciples remained loyal to our Lord because they interpreted what He said in John 6 literally - that should be a red flag that one’s beliefs are extreme even by the standards of Baptists and other non-sacramental Christians.


* For the benefit of other members reading this post who have a genuine interest in the liturgy such as my Lutheran, Anglican, Catholic and Orthodox friends @ViaCrucis @MarkRohfrietsch @Jipsah @Shane R @prodromos @FenderTL5 @jas3 @Ain't Zwinglian @chevyontheriver @Michie and @fhansen - what Theodore of Mopsuestia believed might amuse you or bemuse you on some level. Specifically he believed that the Prothesis, the Liturgy of Preparation, which is a major part of the Eastern liturgy, where the Lamb (the bread to be consecrated), whether leavened or in the case of the Armenians, unleavened, is prepared, which is publicly a part of the Coptic liturgy but happens before the public celebration in the Byzantine Rite, but is nonetheless accessible in various ways for those who want to see it and not some kind of secret, had the effect of transforming the bread into the crucified body of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, and then the Epiclesis, which is again a major part of the Eastern Eucharist but a very minor part of most Western liturgies, aside from those of Scottish Episcopal heritage (which would in theory include the Episcopal Church USA, since they have in all official American editions of the Book of Common Prayer honored the promise made to the Non-Juring Episcopalians who ordained Bishop Seabury to always include the Epiclesis, which the Non Jurors obtained through translating a Greek manuscript of the Divine Liturgy of St. James), had the effect of changing the crucified body and blood of our Lord into His resurrected Body and Blood. Needless to say this is a very unusual belief, and is not the official doctrine even in the churches most influenced by Theodore of Mopsuestia, the East Syriac churches such as the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church and certain of the Mar Thoma churches.
He clearly wouldn't have to say "this is symbolic of My body", He was literally standing before them, In His Body. It goes without saying. It's not out character that He allowed those who refused to accept the teaching to languish in their rebellion. It was "hard" because He was not yet Crucified. How would they understand? He was essentially explaining what was coming, and of course they.. like us would eventually understand what He was actually saying. This one, of all the misinterpretations is especially frustrating because it's so simple, so elementary that it defies explanation how one, much less a 2 millennium old institution could even yet, not see it. It really does elucidate how, the "institution" Jesus was up against, were simply blind. And I don't mean to level insult, I just see no other way to explain it. This was.. a hard teaching, after the Cross, it should not have been.
 
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fhansen

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God ALONE sustains our salvation. He ALONE gives it, keeps it and redeems it. THIS... is trust. THAT is faith. And that is what glorifies God.
Not without your participation, according to His wisdom. Grace, IOW, is resisitible. Faith is both a gift of grace and a human choice: to accept, embrace, express and act upon that gift, daily. Ditto for hope and love. Otherwise Christ's shed blood won't have its intended affect on any given individual. As @The Liturgist mentioned, faith is about relationship, about the establishment of a living, vital realtionship with God.
 
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XrxrX

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No, not quite - faith involves trust, but it also involves fidelity - faithful behavior towards God. It entails a relationship, wherein we pledge an allegiance to God through the vows made at Baptism (by the sponsor on behalf of an infant and directly in the case of adults). We are faithful to God, and God is faithful in keeping His promises to us. This is what faith is.
You're conflating "faith", which is trust and "faithfulness" which is fidelity, in our case obedience. "If we are faithless, He remains faithful.." (2 Tim 2:13). "..For He cannot deny Himself".. His pledge to us is not contingent on any pledge we make. Israel played that game, and that ministry of death and condemnation is dead. We have a new Ministry of the Spirit.
 
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XrxrX

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Not without your participation, according to His wisdom. Grace, IOW, is resisitible. Faith is both a gift of grace and a human choice: to accept, embrace, express and act upon that gift, daily. Ditto for hope and love. Otherwise Christ's shed blood won't have its intended affect on any given individual. As @The Liturgist mentioned, faith is about relationship, about the establishment of a living, vital realtionship with God.
Yes, I'm not talking Calvinism here. We receive salvation, it's not foist on us. But, God sustains salvation.. we don't.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Teaches it so clearly that it was completely absent before 1517. Yep. Makes sense.

If I thought Dr. Luther made it up, I wouldn't be a Lutheran. The Lutheran position isn't that Luther discovered a hidden biblical teaching, but saw something that was there throughout the history of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Fervent

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If I thought Dr. Luther made it up, I wouldn't be a Lutheran. The Lutheran position isn't that Luther discovered a hidden biblical teaching, but saw something that was there throughout the history of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
The problem is, there's no indication anyone prior to Luther believed such a thing. But if you can show otherwise, I'd gladly retract that opinion.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The problem is, there's no indication anyone prior to Luther believed such a thing. But if you can show otherwise, I'd gladly retract that opinion.

He is saying that the justification of faith alone suffices, so that the one who only believes is justified, even if he has not accomplished a single work. It is incumbent upon us, therefore, as those who are attempting to defend the harmoniousness of the Apostle’s writings and to establish that they are entirely consistent in their arrangement, that we should ask: Who has been justified by faith alone without works of the law? Thus, in my opinion, that thief who was crucified with Christ should suffice for a suitable example. He called out to him from the cross, ‘Lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom!’ In the Gospels nothing else is recorded about his good works, but for the sake of this faith alone Jesus said to him, ‘Truly I say to you: Today you will be with me in paradise.’ If it seems appropriate, let us now apply the words of the Apostle Paul to the case of this thief and say to the Jews, ‘Where then is your boasting?’ Certainly it is excluded, but excluded not through the law of works but through the law of faith. For through faith this thief was justified without works of the law, since the Lord did not require in addition to this that he should first accomplish works, nor did he wait for him to perform some works when he had believed” - Origen, Commentary on Romans, 3.9

For full disclosure, I'm not going to suggest that the fully articulated theology found in Luther, the Lutheran fathers, or the Book of Concord is somehow THE teaching of the ancient Church. I'm saying the language Luther used, the language of Confessional Lutheran theology, is not alien to the historic Church.

Important historic context about Luther: Luther devoted much of his life hoping that the Church would meet together in council to discuss the issues in an honest way. Luther's dream of a council never appeared, instead Rome had Trent which from the get-go was about establishing Roman authority and denouncing the Reformers as heretics and schismatics, rather than as concerned devout faithful sons of the Holy Catholic Church.

So, yes, as this quote from Origen demonstrates, this sort of language absolutely can be found in the patristic witness.

The Lutheran position isn't that the Church was originally Lutheran, but that Lutherans are being faithful to the deposit of faith that goes back to the Apostles, in spite of the accusations made by our opponents.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Fervent

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He is saying that the justification of faith alone suffices, so that the one who only believes is justified, even if he has not accomplished a single work. It is incumbent upon us, therefore, as those who are attempting to defend the harmoniousness of the Apostle’s writings and to establish that they are entirely consistent in their arrangement, that we should ask: Who has been justified by faith alone without works of the law? Thus, in my opinion, that thief who was crucified with Christ should suffice for a suitable example. He called out to him from the cross, ‘Lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom!’ In the Gospels nothing else is recorded about his good works, but for the sake of this faith alone Jesus said to him, ‘Truly I say to you: Today you will be with me in paradise.’ If it seems appropriate, let us now apply the words of the Apostle Paul to the case of this thief and say to the Jews, ‘Where then is your boasting?’ Certainly it is excluded, but excluded not through the law of works but through the law of faith. For through faith this thief was justified without works of the law, since the Lord did not require in addition to this that he should first accomplish works, nor did he wait for him to perform some works when he had believed” - Origen, Commentary on Romans, 3.9

For full disclosure, I'm not going to suggest that the fully articulated theology found in Luther, the Lutheran fathers, or the Book of Concord is somehow THE teaching of the ancient Church. I'm saying the language Luther used, the language of Confessional Lutheran theology, is not alien to the historic Church.

Important historic context about Luther: Luther devoted much of his life hoping that the Church would meet together in council to discuss the issues in an honest way. Luther's dream of a council never appeared, instead Rome had Trent which from the get-go was about establishing Roman authority and denouncing the Reformers as heretics and schismatics, rather than as concerned devout faithful sons of the Holy Catholic Church.

So, yes, as this quote from Origen demonstrates, this sort of language absolutely can be found in the patristic witness.

The Lutheran position isn't that the Church was originally Lutheran, but that Lutherans are being faithful to the deposit of faith that goes back to the Apostles, in spite of the accusations made by our opponents.

-CryptoLutheran
I'm not sure a single quote is sufficient to establish such a thing, especially when that quote comes from Origen who's ideas are questionable on several fronts. And while I appreciate the rest of your commentary, it still stands that Luther's peculiar reduction of salvation to justification and that by faith (alone) stands out in church history quite strongly.
 
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RandyPNW

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Not according to 1 Corinthians. Sacramentality is primarily a Pauline issue and not a Jacobean issue, in that St. James only speaks of one sacrament, Holy Unction, and the Lutherans among others do not account the Eucharist or Baptism to be sacraments.
I mentioned Church Membership as a very common example of nominal Christians wishing to "get in through the back door." I mentioned an *overemphasis" on sacramentalism as an example of "extreme Christians" whose view of Faith involves repetitive exercises that in reality bypass Faith.

I don't personally even identify such practices as anything more than "Christian observances." Marking them as somehow more sacred than "saying a prayer" seems to confer too much dignity upon exercises that were only meant to offer support for the routine Christian life.

We may discuss this in some other place so as to not confuse the subject at hand. But in a nutshell, what makes Water Baptism more important than "confessing Christ as Savior?" What makes the Marriage ceremony more important than the marriage vow? What makes the Lord's Supper more important than "living by every word that comes out of the mouth of God?" What makes anointing with oil more important than just "praying for the sick?" What makes an apology less sacred than "confession to a priest?"

I don't wish to diminish the right to preserve important traditional practices, but my main concern is with turning sacramental practices into a shortcut to God's throne room. Just doing a religious exercise does not confer spiritual value upon it. Just doing something holy doesn't in itself make one holy. Swinging an incense container does not spread God's Spirit, though it may indeed indicate to God that we wish it to be so.

I don't think either Paul or James identified these sacraments as sacraments. Can you imagine Jesus telling the new Jewish Church that God will only come to them if they persist in following the rituals of the OT Law? Neither should we think here in the NT that doing these "sacraments" that it will guarantee us a better place in line in our approach to God in Heaven. Respectfully....
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm not sure a single quote is sufficient to establish such a thing, especially when that quote comes from Origen who's ideas are questionable on several fronts. And while I appreciate the rest of your commentary, it still stands that Luther's peculiar reduction of salvation to justification and that by faith (alone) stands out in church history quite strongly.

What makes you think that Luther reduced salvation to justification?

This seems more like a caricature of Luther. I don't claim to be an expert on Luther, but my exposure to Luther is sufficient that it has taught me that both Protestants and non-Protestants often deeply misunderstand Luther. Luther is not the hero some modern Protestants think, as though he courageously stood against the Catholic Church--Luther was a committed Catholic. And by the same token, I've often seen anti-Protestant polemicists use a rather muddled image of Luther, one that looks like a modern American Evangelical Protestant.

I won't pretend like Luther isn't sometimes difficult to understand, he is sometimes difficult. This is largely because Luther wasn't a systematic theologian, he was a pastor. His concern was first and foremost a pastoral concern, not only for his own flock in Wittenberg, but for the whole Church--and so he writes as a pastor. Often a very flawed pastor, as Luther can be extremely caustic in his town. And sometimes Luther, frankly, just said really horrible things that don't deserve to be defended.

I think the best way to understand the Lutheran tradition is also the most obvious: try reading the Book of Concord. The Lutheran Confessions are Lutheran theology.

Sometimes, like Luther, Lutheranism is often seen as a caricature of itself--depending on who you ask. As I've walked this particular walk, the more I've come to realize that Lutheranism is one of the least understood Christian traditions. We aren't "Protestant" in the way most English-speaking people in the world think of "Protestant". We aren't "Protestants with Catholic flavor" we are first and foremost Catholic Christians. And I am intentionally using the uppercase "Catholic" here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Fervent

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What makes you think that Luther reduced salvation to justification?

This seems more like a caricature of Luther. I don't claim to be an expert on Luther, but my exposure to Luther is sufficient that it has taught me that both Protestants and non-Protestants often deeply misunderstand Luther. Luther is not the hero some modern Protestants think, as though he courageously stood against the Catholic Church--Luther was a committed Catholic. And by the same token, I've often seen anti-Protestant polemicists use a rather muddled image of Luther, one that looks like a modern American Evangelical Protestant.

I won't pretend like Luther isn't sometimes difficult to understand, he is sometimes difficult. This is largely because Luther wasn't a systematic theologian, he was a pastor. His concern was first and foremost a pastoral concern, not only for his own flock in Wittenberg, but for the whole Church--and so he writes as a pastor. Often a very flawed pastor, as Luther can be extremely caustic in his town. And sometimes Luther, frankly, just said really horrible things that don't deserve to be defended.

I think the best way to understand the Lutheran tradition is also the most obvious: try reading the Book of Concord. The Lutheran Confessions are Lutheran theology.

Sometimes, like Luther, Lutheranism is often seen as a caricature of itself--depending on who you ask. As I've walked this particular walk, the more I've come to realize that Lutheranism is one of the least understood Christian traditions. We aren't "Protestant" in the way most English-speaking people in the world think of "Protestant". We aren't "Protestants with Catholic flavor" we are first and foremost Catholic Christians. And I am intentionally using the uppercase "Catholic" here.

-CryptoLutheran
Just out of curiousity, have you read his commenary on Romans? Because what I've read of it combined with what I know of the pressing issues in the Reformation it seems apparent to me that one of the principal causes was an emphasis on momentary salvation due to justification by faith and a divorce of sanctification as a component of salvation to a result of salvation.

Though of course Luther alone did not define Lutheran tradition, and a lot of my interaction with Protestant distinctives comes from individuals with a Baptist framework so perhaps there is a more robust understanding within Luther and Lutheranism than I am under the impression of.
 
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fhansen

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He is saying that the justification of faith alone suffices, so that the one who only believes is justified, even if he has not accomplished a single work. It is incumbent upon us, therefore, as those who are attempting to defend the harmoniousness of the Apostle’s writings and to establish that they are entirely consistent in their arrangement, that we should ask: Who has been justified by faith alone without works of the law? Thus, in my opinion, that thief who was crucified with Christ should suffice for a suitable example. He called out to him from the cross, ‘Lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom!’ In the Gospels nothing else is recorded about his good works, but for the sake of this faith alone Jesus said to him, ‘Truly I say to you: Today you will be with me in paradise.’ If it seems appropriate, let us now apply the words of the Apostle Paul to the case of this thief and say to the Jews, ‘Where then is your boasting?’ Certainly it is excluded, but excluded not through the law of works but through the law of faith. For through faith this thief was justified without works of the law, since the Lord did not require in addition to this that he should first accomplish works, nor did he wait for him to perform some works when he had believed” - Origen, Commentary on Romans, 3.9

For full disclosure, I'm not going to suggest that the fully articulated theology found in Luther, the Lutheran fathers, or the Book of Concord is somehow THE teaching of the ancient Church. I'm saying the language Luther used, the language of Confessional Lutheran theology, is not alien to the historic Church.

Important historic context about Luther: Luther devoted much of his life hoping that the Church would meet together in council to discuss the issues in an honest way. Luther's dream of a council never appeared, instead Rome had Trent which from the get-go was about establishing Roman authority and denouncing the Reformers as heretics and schismatics, rather than as concerned devout faithful sons of the Holy Catholic Church.

So, yes, as this quote from Origen demonstrates, this sort of language absolutely can be found in the patristic witness.

The Lutheran position isn't that the Church was originally Lutheran, but that Lutherans are being faithful to the deposit of faith that goes back to the Apostles, in spite of the accusations made by our opponents.

-CryptoLutheran
I don’t think anyone is arguing that one can be justified by works of the law, or that we can be justified by anything we do, besides having faith. I think there’s more argument about what that justification consists of, and whether or not we can compromise and lose that state of justice.
 
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timothyu

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Perhaps the question should be faith in what. Christians have all sorts of ideas even though Jesus plainly said faith in the ways of the Kingdom, not in the backwards, self-serving ways of man, be they secular or religious . That is what happens when man tries to matchGod up with the religion rather than follow the Will of God.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is why Protestants insist on if not Sola Scriptura, at the very least Prima Scriptura, because so many of these foundational rifts may be exegeted and clarified simply by a plain reading of the relevant scriptures.

All Christian denominations use the Prima Scriptura doctrine including the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics, except perhaps for the most extreme radical mainline churches which believe not in the primacy of Scripture but in the primacy of “social justice“ according to their definition thereof, which leads them to go beyond the common disregard of clear moral imperatives concerning sexual morality in the name of inclusion, to the point of actively supporting both abortion and euthanasia, but rather, in the case of the United Church of Canada (which insofar as it has an atheist pastor and is at best indifferent towards the Nicene Creed, might not constitute a Christian denomination according to this website’s policies) has extended to the horrifying and sacrilegious act of performing euthanasia, doctor-assisted homicide, on someone, in the church, in the context of a worship service.
 
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XrxrX

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All Christian denominations use the Prima Scriptura doctrine including the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics, except perhaps for the most extreme radical mainline churches which believe not in the primacy of Scripture but in the primacy of “social justice“ according to their definition thereof, which leads them to go beyond the common disregard of clear moral imperatives concerning sexual morality in the name of inclusion, to the point of actively supporting both abortion and euthanasia, but rather, in the case of the United Church of Canada (which insofar as it has an atheist pastor and is at best indifferent towards the Nicene Creed, might not constitute a Christian denomination according to this website’s policies) has extended to the horrifying and sacrilegious act of performing euthanasia, doctor-assisted homicide, on someone, in the church, in the context of a worship service.
It may be argued Eastern Orthodox does, but I don't believe it's correct that RC does. I'm not aware of any catechism or ordinance stipulating the primacy of scripture Over "sacred tradition" . If you can show it, I'd like to see it.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, and it's equally fallacious to appeal to unqualifed authorities when interpreting Scripture

Indeed. That said not all Protestants were at odds with the early church Fathers; some, such as John Wesley, actually promoted the reintroduction of practices which had lapsed in the Western church, but which are now routine, such as frequent communion, fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays, and the use of the Divine Office independently of the main Sunday worship service (Anglicanism had already accomplished this, but Wesley wanted every parish to use at least the Litany from the Book of Common Prayer on the aforementioned fast days). Of course Wesley was secretly a Greek Orthodox bishop, having been ordained by Erasmus of Arcadia in 1763, albeit one with some Protestant influences to his theology, for example, he was a fan of Martin Luther’s homilies.

But Luther for his part largely wanted what the Roman church would later provide at Vatican II. Only some of Luther‘s teachings are problematic and mostly date from later in his life (specifically, the grotesque anti-Semitic polemic illustrated by Lucas Cranach the Elder, the attack on the antilegomenna, with Luther being one of only a few people who tried to change the New Testament canon, but he was, to be fair, talked out of this, his shall we say loose translation of Romans to interpolate the word “alone” following the word “faith” where it was not indicated, and his peculiar opposition to Extreme Unction as being some sort of curse; he appears to have been unaware that Holy Unction was routinely used in the Eastern churches for the healing of the sick, and at the end of Lent before Holy Week (as per our Savior’s commandment to anoint ourselves with oil during a fast) not just the dying, and is efficacious, and meets the qualifications of a Lutheran sacrament, in that it has a physical material which is used to convey a blessing and has dominical support at least for some cases, indeed, the Eastern liturgies for Extreme Unction I doubt would offend any Lutherans today, as they are constructed around seven (or in the case of the Syriac Orthodox church, five) sets of scripture lessons as wicks leading into the sacred oil, or oil lamps, containing the oil being consecrated, are lit.

And of course the modern Roman Catholic practice is to use Holy Unction on the sick and not just the dying.

By the way would you happen to know how the Oil of the Sick is consecrated in the Roman Rite? i’d be very interested in seeing that liturgy, to see if it resembles the liturgies used in the Oriental Orthodox churches, for they tend to consecrate the oil once a year and then reserve it, whereas the Eastern Orthodox consecrate it before each use even if only one person is sick, and also preface it with the singing of a lovely hymn of the canon variety (which consists of eight odes based on Scriptural canticles).
 
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