The use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

Huldrych

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Okay, here's a potentially loaded one (no pun intended).  What are your views on self-defense?

My views?  I'm an Alaskan, with a valid concealed carry permit.  That should tell ya enough ;)  But honestly, I do believe in responsible gun ownership, as well as responsible attitudes regarding the use of deadly force in self defense.  As a Christian, I also believe the Bible explains that God makes provision for such, but this provision should not foster a "Dirty Harry" mindset, if you know what I mean.

jth
 
I believe that if someone is protecting thier children or wife from harm. I is exceptable. It is our chriistian duty to protect our children. If someone truly evil was to harm my child, or wife. I would not hesitate to use deadly force. That does not mean I would hunt that person down and kill them if they did something to my loved ones and then took off. I would let the police deal with that. I mean, If someone was hurting my child, in front of my eyes, I would kill that person to stop them.
 
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Huldrych

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Okay, how do you justify your views--scripture, patristic quotes, whatever?

For me, deadly force for defense of home & property is addressed in a verse in Exodus:

22:2 "If a thief be found breaking up [or breaking in], and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him."

jth
 
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we have to do things sometime to protect ourselves from the evil that comes upon us, I think God is an understanding God and He would not judge us harshly if we try to protect ourselves or our love ones. I think women need to do more in the area of self defense so we are not so vunerable. I took some self defense classes and I would do what is necessary to defend myself or my child.:pray:
 
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euphoric

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Today at 08:24 AM Mother Vashti said this in Post #6

I wish there were some provisions for this in our religion, but Jesus made His point when He healed that servant's ear: we must completely trust in God, and refrain from all violence -- no exceptions, not even to defend the Lord's life.


That seems like an extremely broad interpretation of what that passage actually said.  I don't remember that being about nonviolence so much as Jesus' understanding that what was to occur was God's will and that it must happen.  It would be difficult to justify applying that to defense of one's family or person.

-brett
 
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Aradia

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I'm very interested in this topic. I'm not a christian, but I would be very interested to know how christians can legitimise the use of violence with respect to their religion. I'm a buddhist, and believe very (very!) strongly in non-violence. But I am somewhat torn in what I would do were I confronted with a situation requiring the use of potentially deadly force. I've studied unarmed self-defense, and the use of knives in self-defense, and could use such force if necessary. Mother Vashti's comment is valid in buddhism as well... the buddha quite plainly said that one should avoid violence, of any level, at all cost. But if someone ever threatened my girlfriend, I'm not so sure I could ignore it. =) Comments?
 
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Jephunneh

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Here is David's policy- After King Saul was killed in battle by a Philistine archer, David initiated a policy to arm and train the populace (2 Sam. 1:18). David was a man after God's own heart (1 Sam. 13:14). It appears that God approved of David's defense policy ( Num. 31:3; 1 Sam. 25:13).


What about the sixth commandment, someone might ask, "Thou shalt not kill" (Ex. 20:13). Well, Jesus interpreted this to mean murder (Mt. 19:16-18).

Ex. 21:12-16-God authorizes capital punishment

Ex. 22:2-God authorizes self-defense.

Ex. 23:20-33-God approves of the fighting of wars.
 
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repentandbelieve

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Today at 08:24 AM Mother Vashti said this in Post #6

I wish there were some provisions for this in our religion, but Jesus made His point when He healed that servant's ear: we must completely trust in God, and refrain from all violence -- no exceptions, not even to defend the Lord's life.
In John 18:36 Jesus said

If my Kingdom were of this world , My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now My kingdom is not from here."

Under different circumstances,  Peter's use if deadly force would have been appropiate. But because Jesus' arrest was in accordance with the Fathers will, Jesus rebuked Peter for his action.  

Also, the book of Ecclesiastes (chapter 3) tells us that everything has it's time. 
 
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euphoric

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Today at 03:52 AM Mother Vashti said this in Post #13

I disagree with all of you who believe violence is legitimate, but I understand your points. :)

Take your stance to its logical conclusion.  If I walk down the street tommorrow and I see a man attempting to rape a woman, then by your philosophy I am forbidden to use violent means to prevent such a horrible thing.  Let's say I try to reason with the rapist to get him to stop and he pulls a knife.  I can't use violence so i let him stab me to death.  Now I'm dead and the woman is about to be brutally raped.  Exactly what purpose has my unwavering commitment to nonviolent response achieved?

-brett
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

Lessee...

Jews are not pacifists; while orthodox Judaism treasures the sanctity of human life, it does not place any value on pacifism. Huldrych and Jephunneh cited Exodus 22:2; we do as well. In Judaism, we believe that we are actually commanded to -- as a last resort and if there is no other choice -- kill someone who would/is trying to kill us; to do otherwise, as Mother Vashti would have us do, would be to commit willful suicide, which is (we believe) a terrible sin. Similarly, we believe that we are commanded to -- as a last resort and if there is no other choice -- kill someone who is attempting to murder someone else; to do otherwise, as Mother Vashti would have us do, would be to commit the murder.

Mother Vashti, please don't take any of this personally! I certainly do not mean to pick on you; however, I find your beliefs (which I certainly do respect, even though I do not share them) to be at considerable variance with how we (orthodox Jews) understand the scriptures.

Huldrych, I certainly endorse the idea of responsible (but not unlimited!) gun ownership. Whoever owns a weapon must know how to use, and store, it properly.

We also believe that our views on the relevant scriptures should not foster a Dirty Harry mentality.

In Genesis 15:1, God tells Abram
Fear not, Abram, I am your shield, your reward shall be exceeding great.

Our Sages ask what Abram had to be afraid of, having just returned victorious from his campaign against the 4 kings. Our Sages give various explanations. Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Itzhaki, CE 1040-1105, http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/rashi.html) says that Abram
was concerned not over the one innocent life he might have taken [in the course of the campaign against the 4 kings], but over all the lives, both the innocent and the wicked that he had been instrumental in taking. He was not troubled over the isolated cases of injustice dictated by the necessity of war but over the contingency of war itself which necessitated so much bloodshed.

The above excerpt is from the late Nehama Leibowitz's "Studies in Genesis." Prof. Leibowitz (may her memory be blessed!) cites I Chronicles 22:7 and I Chronicles 28:3 in support of Rashi's view. In the latter reference, King David tells his princes
"But God said unto me: 'You shall not build a house for My name because you have been a man of war and have shed blood.'"

Regarding Phineas, God promises him "My covenant of peace". Our Sages believe that "My covenant of peace" was a promise of inner peace, that Phineas, ever sensitive to the sanctity of human life, should not be consumed by doubts, regrets and emotional turmoil, when he realizes that here, he has just killed two people, sinners yes, but two people who were created in the Divine Image. Our Sages teach that, "Whoever saves one life, it is as if he had saved an entire world. Whoever destroys one life, it is as if he had destroyed an entire world." God had mercy on Phineas that he should not be consumed by the enormity of what he had done & thus gave him His "covenant of peace."

BTW, under Jewish law, a priest who had taken human life, even if entirely justifiable self-defense or by pure accident, was permanently disqualified from officiating at the Temple altar. Our Sages say that the service at the altar brings life into the world; one who took life has no place there.

Just my thoughts (such as they are).

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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euphoric

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Today at 04:29 AM Mother Vashti said this in Post #15

Hi euphoric,
Exactly.
If you don't believe peace in this situation achieves anything, -- this is just my personal opinion -- I think you need to re-evaluate how connected-at-the-heart you are to Christ's teachings.

I stopped worrying about my connectedness to Christ's teachings long ago.  Whether he taught that or not (and I have a strong suspicion that you are misunderstanding what he actually taught) makes little difference.  As with most instances of people saying that a particular approach is always best, I think there are exceptions to nonviolence. 

Let's reframe the discussion a bit so I understand your position.  If you were to come upon someone being attacked, say a four year old girl, and she would be brutally killed without your intervention, what would your response be?

-brett
 
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euphoric

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Today at 04:29 AM Mother Vashti said this in Post #15

Hi euphoric,
Exactly.
If you don't believe peace in this situation achieves anything, -- this is just my personal opinion -- I think you need to re-evaluate how connected-at-the-heart you are to Christ's teachings.

One other thing about this post I'd like to address.  You seem to have defined "peace" as simply the absence of any conflict.  I would disagree with that definition.  If tyranny or violence is being inflicted on a person or group and that person or group simply accepts that violence, then I don't believe peace has been achieved at all.  I would find it extremely difficult to describe a situation where I let another human being be assaulted without my intervention as supporting peace.  It would be a matter of decency and honor for me to do what was neccessary to prevent violence against an innocent.  To do nothing would be unthinkable.

-brett
 
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Mother Vashti

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Hi Euphoric,
Let's up the stakes.

Let us say that it is my little four-year old girl. My answer to you is still the same: we must trust that God will be our spear and shield, if we have faith in His action.

Your posts are quite eloquent, and I am enjoying disagreeing with you. *slurps tea* :)
 
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Aradia

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A matter of decency and honor. That is to say... a matter of pride? =)

If you don't get what Mother Vashti is saying, perhaps she'll allow a lowly heathen to explain it:

Her four-year-old daughter will, upon her death, find everlasting life and love in heaven. What is this life on earth? What are these flesh and blood bodies? Nothing. They are shackles compared to life in heaven. They are shackles compared to our immortal souls. When a loved one dies, our own sorrow is a reflection of our own selfishness. That loved one is now in heaven -- what reason have we to feel sorry? Because they have left us? How selfish!

What makes life on earth so much better than a life in heaven that we should corrupt our soul in order to preserve it?

I hope that Mother Vashti will correct me if I made any grievous errors. =)
 
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