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Communism- Socialism

BCP1928

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Socialism is the daring idea that government can and should use its power to provide for the good of the disadvantaged.

Free market capitalism is a recipe for monopolies and gross violations of human rights, as was seen in the 19th century.
This is what we are heading towards now--away from free market capitalism towards a neoliberal oligarchy, just like in the Guilded Age of the 19th century.
While a regulated capitalist economy is likely the best of imperfect systems to choose from, the glory of free market capitalism is as much of a myth as a communist utopia.
Don't confuse free market capitalism with laissez fair capitalism. Free markets actually require regulation.
 
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RDKirk

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What's odd to me is the people most opposed to restoring the wealth of the people from those who have unjustly hoarded it are people who claim to believe in the Bible, but somehow miss the very progressive nature of the nation of Israel with its policies like reserving a significant portion of the harvest for the poor to glean, 7 year cycles of debt forgiveness, and similar. God's heart for the poor is ignored, and instead it is the well to do who are believed to have His favor.
Jesus noted that specific problem even in His time. He literally cursed such people.
 
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Fervent

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This is what we are heading towards now--away from free market capitalism towards a neoliberal oligarchy, just like in the Guilded Age of the 19th century.
Yeah, I agree with you there. Thanks to the slow roll back of regulations in the name of "capitalism" that started with Reagan.
Don't confuse free market capitalism with laissez fair capitalism. Free markets actually require regulation.
What is the free in free market supposed to represent, if not freedom from government oversight?
 
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public hermit

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Yeah...it can be a hard sell for some people who believe themselves temporarily embarrassed millionaires, rather than recognizing the parasytic role that a few "noble" families have played in monopolizing the wealth and productivity of the nation. So many spend their time worrying about doing the billionaire's wrong than recognize the very real harm that our system does to the most vulnerable among us.

There is role for both. There is a role for those who speak bluntly and those who speak convincingly. More flies with honey and all. If people want real change, change that endures, it's to everyone's advantage to appeal to the hearts and minds of the rich. If that can be done, if the rich can find value in generosity, everybody wins.
 
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Fervent

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There is role for both. There is a role for those who speak bluntly and those who speak convincingly. More flies with honey and all. If people want real change, change that endures, it's to everyone's advantage to appeal to the hearts and minds of the rich. If that can be done, if the rich can find value in generosity, everybody wins.
I suppose folks can dream. But if the rich had hearts, they wouldn't be rich for long. Wealth on the order that the wealthy in America have tends to come from exploitation, so even in their philanthropy there is often an air of disdain. But such is life in a world in which the Prince of the Power of the Air has temporary custody.
 
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BCP1928

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Yeah, I agree with you there. Thanks to the slow roll back of regulations in the name of "capitalism" that started with Reagan.

What is the free in free market supposed to represent, if not freedom from government oversight?
I assume you are being ironic. Free markets were defined in The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith, who is considered to be the father of modern economics. His book was published (coincidentally) in 1776 and sets forth three conditions for a free market, which off the top of my head can be summarized as follows;

1. Free access to the market.
2. Free circulation of information about prices and quality
3. Particpants, buyers and sellers, are of comperable market power.

Of course, that is an ideal rarely achieved but the best examples of a classical free markets in operation today are probably the commodities exchanges, which are in fact heavily regulated--to achieve those conditions as closely as possible. The notion that a market is "free" to the extent that it is not regulated by the government comes straight from Milton Friedman and hls Chicago School of Fascist Apologetics.
 
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Fervent

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I assume you are being ironic. Free markets were defined in The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith, who is considered to be the father of modern economics. His book was published (coincidentally) in 1776 and sets forth three conditions for a free market, which off the top of my head can be summarized as follows;

1. Free access to the market.
2. Free circulation of information about prices and quality
3. Particpants, buyers and sellers, are of comperable market power.

Of course, that is an ideal rarely achieved but the best examples of a classical free markets in operation today are probably the commodities exchanges, which are in fact heavily regulated--to achieve those conditions as closely as possible. The notion that a market is "free" to the extent that it is not regulated by the government comes straight from Milton Friedman and hls Chicago School of Fascist Apologetics.
I wasn't being ironic, more often when I encounter people spouting off about free markets they're either idolizing Friedman or "objectivists", rather than talking about market economies described by Smith. Your definition would present the most likely ideal economy, but points 2 and 3 are likely unachievable without some measure of more or less socialist intervention since most participants are at the mercy of their employers who prefer to suppress information about prices(especially when those prices take the form of wages) and are inherently unequal in market power.
 
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Desk trauma

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I know Pommer brought it up. And then you asked this. I said I don't know, is it? I know the immense deaths under socialist/communist regimes so I posted it. I did not bring up cut offs, I posted what I thought. If you can,t answer it I can't either...
You can’t answer what your own standard is? Ok.
 
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Fantine

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You've been sold a bill of goods. Socialism is not "in the middle." Both socialism and communism are authoritarian economic systems. The difference is that communists believe that socialism can only be brought about through violent revolution.

That "crony capitalism" you refer to has a technical name: Neoliberalism. Neoliberalism is the authoritarian economic system of the Right. What's really in the middle is free market capitalism.
The "middle" used to be the right.
I choose the common good.
 
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public hermit

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I suppose folks can dream. But if the rich had hearts, they wouldn't be rich for long. Wealth on the order that the wealthy in America have tends to come from exploitation, so even in their philanthropy there is often an air of disdain. But such is life in a world in which the Prince of the Power of the Air has temporary custody.

It's a matter of changing culture, which is no small thing, I admit. What do the rich love almost as much as their money and things? They love how they appear. They get dressed up and get together and make appearances. If being generous is valued in that culture, that's good. And it's not an impossible shift in attitude. We already see some very wealthy people speaking in favor of paying more in taxes. Amazingly, it's those without wealth who help the most to keep it from happening. At any rate, I don't think we should underestimate the practical value of vanity.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You can’t answer what your own standard is? Ok.
You can't. You asked the question. I never said anything about it. I was only talking about the OP.
 
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Fervent

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It's a matter of changing culture, which is no small thing, I admit. What do the rich love almost as much as their money and things? They love how they appear. They get dressed up and get together and make appearances. If being generous is valued in that culture, that's good. And it's not an impossible shift in attitude. We already see some very wealthy people speaking in favor of paying more in taxes. Amazingly, it's those without wealth who help the most to keep it from happening. At any rate, I don't think we should underestimate the practical value of vanity.
I suppose that might push things in the right direction, but I fear that would only lead to token acceptance and more likely lead to income tax raises that land more on small business owners than the billionare caste.
 
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Desk trauma

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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Correct, I am unable to know thoughts you have not shared.
Hence why I asked it again.
i didn't bring it up, YOU DID. I said I don't know. Now you are goading.
 
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Hentenza

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Are you okay with America becoming a Communist and or Socialist country? Yes or No? And why?
I came from a communist country. It does not work and will not work anywhere. The ideology is beautiful but the execution and reality sucks.
 

Hentenza

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One might also ask why the Gospel needs to be preached when there is a free Bible in every motel room. :)
Cause no one reads them? ;) :wave:
 
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Hentenza

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It is the authoritarian dictatorial model of communism or socialism that is so negative. The authoritarian dictatorial model of capitalism is just as negative, or even more so. It is taking control from the votes of the people and ceding it to callous amoral leaders who do not have our best interests at heart.
Our government in its current form and its current leadership is every bit as vulnerable to abuse of power as the communism and socialism you describe.
Have you ever lived under communism?
 
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Canuckster

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I came from a communist country. It does not work and will not work anywhere. The ideology is beautiful but the execution and reality sucks.
There's actually two definitions of communism: one that's available for public consumption and the other that's only available to its executors.
 
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RDKirk

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It's a matter of changing culture, which is no small thing, I admit. What do the rich love almost as much as their money and things? They love how they appear. They get dressed up and get together and make appearances. If being generous is valued in that culture, that's good. And it's not an impossible shift in attitude. We already see some very wealthy people speaking in favor of paying more in taxes. Amazingly, it's those without wealth who help the most to keep it from happening. At any rate, I don't think we should underestimate the practical value of vanity.
That is a change that somehow happened in the early 1900s. The very wealthy changed their appearance from robber barons to social benefactors. I don't know why or how (and in many ways it was only a matter of appearance).

But that went away during the 1980s, the "greed is good" era, the Reagan era, the "Wolf of Wall Street" era. New financial instruments were created that were as effective at enabling mega-corporations to engulf smaller businesses as trusts had been in the robber baron era.
 
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