Word-Faith?

hobie I just read your testimony. It is really encouraging and has left a deep impression on me. I am very happy for you and your wife too!

God bless bro!

Right now, I'm believing God for a new car. And like you said, given the current amt of money my wife and I are making, (and our fixed expenses) there is no way we can afford a nice new car and maintain it, unless we want to eat grass every month! ha ha.

I've also only looked at 'budget' cars, smaller CC, made in Korea (as opp to Japan) etc. I would like to think big, becos I believe God is a big God, but when I look at it in the natural it just seems so impossible. I dont know how in the world it can happen, so when it does happen, it must be God!

ps: cars in Singapore are ridiculously priced. An average-sized family car like the 1600 cc Toyota Corolla (a best seller here) is about US$43,000, and you can only drive it for 10 years, after which you must pay another US$12-15K to drive it for another 10 years.

Very Interesting Thread
Looked like I got here to late for the discussion.

I just had a chance to flip through a Dake Study Bible. The thing is hugh.

Quote

A Profile Of The Word-Faith Movement

Positive Confession and the Word Faith Movement
-Compiled by Clete Hux

Positive Confession is the belief that if a believer speaks
"spiritual" or "faith-filled" words then he can have what he
says. Unfortunately, this influence has invaded the church
and continues to cause much turmoil and confusion.

Many of the teachers of this movement believe that words are
so powerful that they can influence the physical and
spiritual worlds. For example:

In "The Tongue, a Creative Force" (1976), positive
confessionist Charles Capps, teaches that there are powerful
"spiritual words." Such words, which are ordinary words, can
under certain circumstances, become vehicles for creative or
supernatural power.

When faith-filled spiritual words are spoken (as words of
power), they can alter the physical and spiritual world.
Capps says, "You see there is more to it than just saying
it. The words must originate from the inner man where
spiritual power is released through words."

He goes on to state that "spirit words can control both the
spirit world and the physical world. Because the words
themselves have power, they will work for either God or man
in the same manner." He goes on:

"The spirit of man is not of this world, it is of the
spirit world. The creative ability of man comes through his
spirit... He speaks spirit words that work in the world of
the spirit. They will also dominate the physical world. He
breathes spirit life into God's Word and it becomes a living
substance, working for him as it worked for God in the
beginning. These spirit words dominate the natural world."
(p.117-118).

What Capps is alluding to in the above statement is his
teaching that since God, "by His faith" (using words) spoke
this physical world into existence - the believer, using
faith, can do the same. That is, the believer can speak
things into existence. However, God's word is already
"quick and powerful" {Hebrews 4:12}and it is referred to as
the "Word of Life" {Phillipians 2:16}. It is not necessary
to activate it by speaking words of faith as though it were
asleep or dead! Rather, it is by hearing the "living" word
that one is brought to salvation through faith in
Christ.{Romans 10:17}.

A number of the prosperity teachers believe that the
spiritual world controls and continually forms the physical
world. So, if one can learn to control the spiritual world,
then he can learn to control the physical world as well.
This teaching then becomes the foundation for securing
individual prosperity.

That's why in "Releasing the Ability of God," Capps states,
"You can have what you say!... (because) the powerful force
of the spiritual world that creates the circumstances around
us is controlled by the words of the mouth. This force comes
from inside us... the confession of our mouth will cause you
to possess it. (pp.98-99, parenthesis mine). This is why he
teaches, "Discipline your vocabulary," and "today your word
is god over your circumstances." (pp.101-104).

Capps also teaches that the power within a Christian, within
one's spirit, functions according to unchangeable laws. He
says "These principles of faith are based on spiritual laws.
They work for whosoever will apply these laws." (The Tongue,
p.103)

D.R. McConnell, in his book, "A Different Gospel," directly
traces the origin the spiritual laws taught in positive
confession to the metaphysics of E.W. Kenyon, a man of 50-60
years ago whose theology was that of Pentecostal Christian
Science.( A Different Gospel, pp. 3-56).

McConnell records Kenneth Copeland in "The Laws of
Prosperity," ( p.98, 101), saying, "You can have what you
say! In fact, what you are saying is exactly what you are
getting now. If you are living in poverty and lack and want,
change what you are saying. It will change what you have...
Discipline your vocabulary... God will be obligated to meet
your needs because of His word... If you stand firmly on
this, your needs will be met." (Ibid, p.173).

McConnell further states, that E.W. Kenyon's New Thought
classmate, Ralph Waldo Trine, attributes the confession of
prosperity to "occult power." He says that "Trine believed
that thought is a force, and it has occult power of unknown
proportions when rightly used and wisely directed." (Ibid,
p.174).

The usage of occult powers is, of course, a practice that
the Faith teachers would publicly reject. And of course,
this is not to say that those offering these teachings are
occultists. They are teachers who may never have thought
through the implications of the practices they advocate.
They may be unaware of the similarities between certain
aspects of positive confession and occultic practices.
Nevertheless, the similarities do exist, and these practices
are neither Biblical or Christian.

John Ankerberg's issue of "News and Views," June 1988, p.1,
reports that these words are used in religious rituals to
influence both the spirit world and the material world. The
report quotes occult magician David Conway discussing the
power of magical words to affect these worlds:

"Unseparable from magical speculation about words is the
theory of vibrations, which supposes that certain sounds
have a powerful acoustic impact on both the spiritual and
astral worlds... Like the spiritual world and astral plane
can in some circumstances be affected by sound, so that
verbal magic may be said to derive its power not only from
the idea contained in certain words, but from the peculiar
vibrations these words create when spoken." ("Magic: an
Occult Primer", pp.74-75).

Occultists, of course, have long claimed the true inner
nature of man is powerful, capable of exercising divine
ability. This is why New Ager Benjamin Creme says, for
example, "One doesn't pray to oneself, one prays to the God
within. The thing is to learn to invoke that energy which is
the energy of God. Prayer and worship as we know it today
will gradually die out and men will be trained to invoke the
(inner) power of deity." ("The Reappearance of Christ and
the Masters of Wisdom" pp. 135-136, parenthesis mine)

The reason that positive confessionists, like the
occultists, can place so much emphasis on the inner man and
his divine power is that they think the believer is a god.
Kenneth Copeland says, "You don't have a god in you, you are
one" (Copeland's sermon tape "The Force of Love"). And
Kenneth Hagin says, "The believer is as much an incarnation
of God as Jesus Christ." (Hagin, "Word of Faith", p.14).

To the positive confessionist, scripture passages such as
Proverbs 18: 21, "Death and Life are in the power of the
tongue;" and James 3: 8-10 are taken as proof of this
doctrine, because they believe as "little gods" they have
the same power as God.

Is it any wonder that Charles Capps says "The confession of
your mouth even after you have prayed correctly will
determine whether or not you receive... You can release the
ability of God through the words of your mouth." ("Releasing
the Ability of God," 1978, pp.93, 96.)

For Christians words and faith are important, but there is a
limit to what words can do.

It can help or hurt a close friend or a total stranger by
what one says, but to treat words as if they were some "star
wars" type weapon by which one alters or manipulates reality
is not biblical, but occultic. If one could change reality
by the power of words spoken, then that would put man on the
same level with God. This is exactly what teachers of the
"positive confession," or word-faith movement, claim.

We are told by God Himself that He spoke the creation into
existence (Genesis 1). He has not given that power to
anyone else!

UNDERLYING BELIEFS:
GOD

To some of the Word of Faith (WOF) leaders, God is a
tritheistic being. For instance, Benny Hinn said in a sermon
broadcast on TBN on October 13, 1990 that "God the Father,
God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all have their own
spirit body, soul and spirit... if I can shock you and maybe
I should, there's nine of them."

Teaching that God, who is pure spirit (James 4:24), has His
own spirit body is to teach something definitely not found
in Scripture. There is no biblical basis for such a
teaching. This teaching would be more in line with Mormonism
than orthodox Christianity.

CREATION

Kenneth Copeland teaches that God created the Universe, and
everything therein, out of a spiritual substance known as
faith, by forming a mental picture of the creation in "the
insides of Him," then by using words as containers for His
faith, projected the image outwardly into the reality of
creation.

For example, in his tape, "Spirit, Soul, and Body," Copeland
says, "Faith is real... is a power... is a force... It's
used by God at His will... This world and everything in it
was created by Him and He used His faith to do it... Now you
couldn't really and truly say that He created it out of
nothing because faith is something... the whole thing was
born out of the force of faith that was resident inside the
being of God."

Copeland's misunderstanding of faith and creation has a New
Age ring to it. If the universe was created out of God's
faith, and if this faith is the actual life and personality
of God, then the creation is merely an extension of God
(pantheism or panentheism), thus making all things divine.

In his tape, "Following the Faith of Abraham," Copeland
asserts, "You don't think God created man in His image and
created the earth in some other image, huh? There's nothing
under the whole sun that's new. This is a copy of home a
copy of the mother planet where God lives, He made a little
one just like it and put us on it."

Evidently to Copeland, God lives on a big earth just like
the smaller one we live on, since everything images the
things of God.

There is a striking similarity here to Mormonism which
teaches that "God is supposed to have lived on a planet near
a mysterious star called Kolob" (Bruce McConkie, "Mormon
Doctrine," p.428).

LITTLE GODS

Gloria Copeland, Kenneth Copeland's wife, stated in "The
Believer's Voice of Victory," that, "when God breathed the
breath of life into Adam, He transmitted His very self into
him. God imparted the same spiritual substance of which His
is made into Adam's being" ("Believers Voice of Victory,"
June, 1986, p.10)..

In his sermon tape, "Following the Faith of Abraham,"
Kenneth Copeland teaches that God created Adam a god (having
the same attributes as God Himself): "And Adam is as much
like God as you can get, just the same as Jesus when He came
into the earth... And I want you to know something - Adam in
the garden of Eden was God manifested in the flesh." We now
see that Brigham Young of Mormonism isn't the only one who
has taught the Adam-God theory ("Deseret News," 6/16/1873),
but also Kenneth Copeland (parenthesis mine).

In "The Force of Love," another sermon tape, Copeland
states, "You don't have a god in you, you are one."

Kenneth Hagin in "Word of Faith" says, "You are as much the
incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was. Every man who has
been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a
miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus
of Nazareth."("Word of Faith," December 1980, p.14).

Earl Paulk of the Harvester Church in Atlanta, Georgia, in
his work, "Satan Unmasked" explains it like this: "Adam and
Eve were placed in the world as the seed and expression of
God. Just as dogs have puppies and cats have kittens, so God
has little gods... we have trouble comprehending this
truth... Until we comprehend that we are little gods, we
cannot manifest the kingdom of God" (p.97).

In his book "Agony of Deceit," Michael Horton has documented
Kenneth Copeland in a July 19, 1987 crusade as saying, "I
say this and repeat it so it don't upset you too bad... When
I read in the Bible where He {Jesus} says, I AM, I say, Yes,
I am too!" (p.268). In John 8:58, I AM is a self
proclamation of Jesus' own unique Deity from Exodus
3:14,15.)

Dave Hunt, in his book "Seduction of Christianity,"
documents Casey Treat, pastor of Seattle's Christian Faith
Center, as saying in his tape series "Believing in Yourself"
that we're exact duplicates of God. "I'm an exact duplicate
of God! When God looks in the mirror He sees me! When I look
in the mirror, I see God! Oh, hallelujah!... You know,
sometimes people say to me, when they're mad and want to put
me down... You just think you're a little god. Thank you!
Hallelujah! You got that right! Who'd' you think you are,
Jesus? Yep!...Are you listening to me? Are you kids running
around here acting like gods? Why not? God told me to!...
Since I'm an exact duplicate of God, I'm going to act like
God!"

One of WOF's proof texts for them being "little gods" is
Psalms 82:6. If one looks carefully, it is apparent that God
is mocking the judges (gods) who had perverted justice. He
{God} says, "I say ye are gods, nevertheless, you will die
as mere men" (vss.6 & 7). This is the same proof text the
Mormons use to say one can become a god.

It is also a contradiction that if one is a god that one
should die as a man. God is mocking and in a real sense
condemning those that would arrogantly try to lift
themselves to such status.

As is seen with Casey Treat, another problem with WOF
teachers is their misunderstanding of the meaning of man
being made in the image of God. To use Treat's own
illustration of looking in the mirror, when one does look,
what one sees is one's own reflection. The image is not
reality. The image is only a reflection of one's reality.
One reflects God's image (some of His qualities) but one is
not God.

Granted that man is in the apex of God's creation and as
such is completely different from the rest of creation, but
being God's image does not mean that one is a little god.
Humans are not divine by nature. God is divine. "Howbeit
then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which
by nature are no gods". (Galatians 4:8, also see Isaiah 1:6-
11, 43:10, 44:6; Gen.1:26, 28, 3:4-5; Ezekiel 28:2; Psalm
8:6-8.)

THE BORN AGAIN JESUS

Michael Horton points out in "Agony of Deceit" that "any
teaching that denies that Christ as 'the only begotten Son,
the One and Only incarnation of God' is heresy" (John 3:16,
1:14,18; I John 4:1). It is important to point this out.

Kenneth Copeland, in "Believer's Voice of Victory" in
relating to what Christ told him says, "Don't be disturbed
when people accuse you of thinking you're God... the more
you get to be like me, the more they're going to think that
way of you. They crucified me for claiming that I was God.
But I didn't claim I was God, I just claimed I walked with
Him and that He was in me. (August, 1988, p.8).

The early Gnostic heretic, Cerinthus, taught that Jesus was
just a man, becoming divine only at Baptism. At the cross,
the Holy Spirit left Him, leaving Jesus devoid of His divine
nature - once again He was just a man. ("Baker's Dictionary
of Theology," Cerinthians, p.113)

Copeland seems to advocate the same thing in the same
Believer's Voice of Victory, Aug. 1988 issue when he says,
"He voluntarily gave up that advantage, living His life here
not as God but as a man. He had no innate supernatural
powers. He had no ability to perform miracles until after He
was anointed by the Holy Spirit as recorded in Luke 3:22."
This is needed to understand the WOF's teaching on Jesus'
spiritual death.

In "God's Will for You," Gloria Copeland states, "Jesus
experienced the same spiritual death that entered man in the
garden of Eden" (p.3). This can not be so because Adam's
death in the garden was due to disobedience where Jesus'
death on the cross was due to obedience.(Phil.2: 8b)

In "The Name of Jesus," Kenneth Hagin defines spiritual
death as "something more than separation from God. Spiritual
death also means having Satan's nature... Jesus tasted death
- spiritual death - for every man" (p.31).

To many in the WOF movement, the emphasis is not on the
physical death of Jesus (which is what the Bible emphasizes,
i.e., "without shedding of blood is no remission," see
Hebrews 9:12, 14, 15, 22) but on the "spiritual death" of
Christ.

On his tape, "What Happened From the Cross to the Throne,"
Copeland says, "When {Jesus} said, 'It is finished' He was
not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of
redemption had just begun. There was still three days and
three nights to be gone through before He went to the
throne" (parenthesis mine).

This is in direct opposition to what Christ said on the
cross, "It is finished." (John 19:30). The word is
"tetelistai" meaning "paid for in full." There was nothing
more to pay for beyond the cross. If there was, Jesus would
not have said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou
be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23: 43), but instead would
have said, "Today you will be with Me in hell."

Mac,
The things persented in your cut and paste ariticle have been hashed and rehashed, refuted and refused, denied and disproven.... so many times they are really not even worth discussing (yet) again.
The anti-WOF folks have nothing new to offer, and so just continually toss out this old material again and again.
The material is a mix of: out and out lies, misrepresentations, twisted truths, and things blown out of proportion. I have been WOF for some time, and if I did not know about all these issues which are raised I also would gasp and reject WOF also. But I know what we believe, and what you have posted in no way represents what we believe.
Thanks for the effort though. Just realize that you are (unintentionally) posting false accusations against many people who genuinely love the Lord and who are doing their best to be true to His Word.
God Bless!
WOFman

Today at 12:28 AM Gideon4God said this in Post #64

I just had a chance to flip through a Dake Study Bible. The thing is hugh.

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I love Dakes! I worn out two of them.... along with two copies of "Gods Plan for Man" which is also authored by Dake.
Some have a problem with the small type in the side columns, but you can get large a text version.

Today at 09:00 AM WOFman said this in Post #67

Mac,
The things persented in your cut and paste ariticle have been hashed and rehashed, refuted and refused, denied and disproven.... so many times they are really not even worth discussing (yet) again.
The anti-WOF folks have nothing new to offer, and so just continually toss out this old material again and again.
The material is a mix of: out and out lies, misrepresentations, twisted truths, and things blown out of proportion. I have been WOF for some time, and if I did not know about all these issues which are raised I also would gasp and reject WOF also. But I know what we believe, and what you have posted in no way represents what we believe.
Thanks for the effort though. Just realize that you are (unintentionally) posting false accusations against many people who genuinely love the Lord and who are doing their best to be true to His Word.
God Bless!
WOFman

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The things presented by MAC in these articles really are misrepresentations of what WOF people believe... but at least they touch upon some of the weightiers matters. While healing, prayer, and prosperity are issues... they are superficial compared to the issues raised in this material.
I am not sure anyone here would be knowledgable enough on the issues to discuss these on the negative...

As a new Christian, I got caught up in the WoF movement. Thank God He got me out of it.

As an older Christian, I thank God I got introduced to the Word-Faith movt and got out of the dead-faith movt

So then you agree with the false teaching commonly associated with the WoF movement such as that Jesus had to be born again in Hell and that men are divine?

 

Faith is not saying "God can" or "God will", but saying "God HAS done it!"

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But if God hasn't done it, then it's not faith, it's wishful thinking and it's presumptuous. 

Good post, Mac.

I've tried to engage WoF people hundreds of times on these issues and only one had the guts to admit that these things are wrong.

I'm not sure which is more disturbing: that Copeland, Hinn, et al, would teach these things or that so many people are so Biblically and doctrinaly illiterate that they would excuse such false teachings.

On Baptistboard.com, we've discussed their teachings at length and Copeland has more in common with Mormonism than he does with any sort of Christianity.

Today at 04:04 AM Andrew said this in Post #71

As an older Christian, I thank God I got introduced to the Word-Faith movt and got out of the dead-faith movt

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Me too Andrew.  I'm finely free to believe that God said what He meant and meant what He said. He died so I could be whole. . .body, soul, and spirit. 

I guess if all one wants whole is their spirit, then God will oblidge them, but I want everthing He gives me.  I'm not being selfish. . .I'm being grateful. 

I think the biggest thing that bothers me about the Word of Faith movement is it's willingness to let critics prove it wrong.
People have written books about the movement, taken their verses they use to support there movement and put them in proper context to show how they're wrong, and exposed their lies for years. What has the movement done in return? Nothing.
It's almost as if someone said "1+1=3."
The math teacher comes along and says, "No, 1+1=2 because if you have one object and place it next to one object and count them, you have 1...2."
To which the person replies, "But 1+1=3!"
What I'm saying is, the Word of Faith movement quotes verses out of context, and when told they're wrong, continue quoting them! Do they break out commentaries, look at the context, and correct the very person telling them they're wrong? No. They back away and continue on. Just do a basic seach for "Word of Faith" on the internet. Look how many sites there are against their teachings. How many Word of Faith sites are there correcting those comments? None that I've seen.
You think if a movement was full of so much truth it would be eager to stand in the face of criticizm.
Instead they go on misquoting their Isaiah 53:5, Hebrews 11:1, and Mark 11:23. It's a good thing these verses are in the Bible, or they'd have nothing to talk about on Sunday morning. They might actually have to look at the other parts of the Bible and see what it says when put in proper context.
To those objectively looking at Christianity, remember, we come to the table for the one hosting the meal. Not for what's on the table. There's a difference between God and Santa.

Ya know a lot of people have attempted to use this logic as proof that WOF is wrong.

On this forum alone, I have watched the WOF people defend themselves very eloquently, Biblically and thorougly. I have also watched the opposing side misquote them by posting only portions of their statement, which of course changes the meaning of what was really said.

I have watched the oppising side totally ignore the proof of the Greek and Hebrew, and Bible dictionaries, and commentaries and anything else one might use in their searching.

I have watched the opposing side totally ignore the personal testimonies of those who have believed the Word and stood on (that's what WOF means) it and had God provide for them miraculously.

I have seen those opposed to WOF, tell WOF people they are going to hell, and that they are false prophets, false teachers, etc. And I have watched as the WOF people took it on the chin (most of the time-we all are human) and just blessed their accusers.

I don't consider myself WOF and have said that several times. But because my views, drawn directly from reading my Bible are similar, I also have had these accusations thrown at me. I've learned over time that it has been pretty useless defending myself because I've only been told I'm a false teacher too, since so much of what I write tends to be what they teach.

In one post I gave the dictionary definations and the Strongs Concordance words which backed up everything said and the person then told me the Concordance was wrong. go figure

I finely got to the point where I just gave up trying to defend. . .it seemed to make no differerence in how much I proved anything. People have their pre-set opinions and unless one is "really" seraching for truth, they will not hear it anyway.

Quaffer said:

On this forum alone, I have watched the WOF people defend themselves very eloquently, Biblically and thorougly. I have also watched the opposing side misquote them by posting only portions of their statement, which of course changes the meaning of what was really said.

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To which I say, Word of Faith or not, they should simply show what was written before and put it back in context. As for actual Word of Faith teachers, people will show time and time again where they're wrong, but they refuse to correct them.

I have watched the opposing side totally ignore the personal testimonies of those who have believed the Word and stood on (that's what WOF means) it and had God provide for them miraculously.

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And I've watched the Word of Faith camp ignore the personal testimonies of those coming from their churches, talking about how they were led to believe that if they give all their money, or claim healing enough, things will get better for them. I've seen people telling their stories of suffering and being told it's their fault.

I have seen those opposed to WOF, tell WOF people they are going to hell, and that they are false prophets, false teachers, etc. And I have watched as the WOF people took it on the chin (most of the time-we all are human) and just blessed their accusers.

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And I've seen the same thing from the other side of the fence.

I finely got to the point where I just gave up trying to defend. . .it seemed to make no differerence in how much I proved anything. People have their pre-set opinions and unless one is "really" seraching for truth, they will not hear it anyway.

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And all I'm saying is, in the search for the truth, sometimes one has to be told they're wrong when they're stating something out of context. I've run across so many people from the Word of Faith movement that are so set in their beliefs that they won't even look at the truth when it's presented to them.
The argument goes both ways.

usadingo said:

To which I say, Word of Faith or not, they should simply show what was written before and put it back in context. As for actual Word of Faith teachers, people will show time and time again where they're wrong, but they refuse to correct them.

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Please show me where in my post I said they did not quote scripture in it's context. They very much did. . .most often more so than the opposer.

usadingo said:

And I've watched the Word of Faith camp ignore the personal testimonies of those coming from their churches, talking about how they were led to believe that if they give all their money, or claim healing enough, things will get better for them. I've seen people telling their stories of suffering and being told it's their fault.

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I suppose there are those, who have not totally matured in this knowledge that do this but as a whole I would say they do not. I know that in learning about it myself I had to ask a lot of questions and my origional perception of what was being said was perception based on lack of knowledge on my part.

When we work the Word it does work. The problem is, being that we live in an instant society, they expect instant. People don't realize they need to do battle and it may take a long time. It may happen instantly too but generally I have found that it does not.

For myself, I concluded that "giving up" was not an option. Many people give themselves the option to give up, therefor when it does not work "now", they give up and then give their personal testimony of how they were missled and none of it was true.

The Word of God is true. We can stand on it. We can take it to the bank. If I give up before the battle is over. . .well. . .then it is my fault. In my opinion, it ain't over till' my body's in the grave. Until then, I will believe what God's Word says.

usadingo said:

And all I'm saying is, in the search for the truth, sometimes one has to be told they're wrong when they're stating something out of context. I've run across so many people from the Word of Faith movement that are so set in their beliefs that they won't even look at the truth when it's presented to them.
The argument goes both ways.

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I agree. And I've run across a lot of people who did not fight the battle to the end. Some people from both sides are guilty. But that does not mean that I have giving up on what I believe Gods word to say just because someone else percieves it differently.

Quaffer said:

Please show me where in my post I said they did not quote scripture in it's context. They very much did. . .most often more so than the opposer.

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I never said you did. I was making a reference to my first post where I said,

usadingo said:

Instead they go on misquoting their Isaiah 53:5, Hebrews 11:1, and Mark 11:23.

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I suppose there are those, who have not totally matured in this knowledge that do this but as a whole I would say they do not. I know that in learning about it myself I had to ask a lot of questions and my origional perception of what was being said was perception based on lack of knowledge on my part.

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The people I'm refering to are Kenneth Kagin (Sr. & Jr.), Benny Hinn, etc.

When we work the Word it does work. The problem is, being that we live in an instant society, they expect instant. People don't realize they need to do battle and it may take a long time. It may happen instantly too but generally I have found that it does not.

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The Bible says God will provide. The people I'm refering to give everything they can until they're unable to give any more. In order to be "provided" for, they had to stop doing what they were being told to do. Someone is wrong. Either the leaders telling them to give, or God. I know who my money is on.

For myself, I concluded that "giving up" was not an option. Many people give themselves the option to give up, therefor when it does not work "now", they give up and then give their personal testimony of how they were missled and none of it was true.

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A lot of people who left the Word of Faith movement didn't give up either. They left due to family memebers dying after "claiming their healings."

The Word of God is true. We can stand on it. We can take it to the bank. If I give up before the battle is over. . .well. . .then it is my fault. In my opinion, it ain't over till' my body's in the grave. Until then, I will believe what God's Word says.

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I agree. As long as the Word of God is interpreted true, that is.

usadingo,

I believe that people are held accountable for what they choose to believe without checking it out or asking God for themselves.

For me, that has all been part of me learning the difference between, being coerced (which the Bible tells us not to give under), guilt and/or giving out of greed (if I give more I will get more. . .although that is a Biblical truth), or giving out of love and service to God and/or Him telling me to take the step of faith.

If I fall on my hiney due to my action then I must take the responsibilty for where I missed it. . .not blame it on someone else preaching the Word of God and me not asking God how He wants me to apply what I'm hearing at that moment.