On Democracy, "Identity", and What America Should Be

Stephen3141 · Jun 10, 2025

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article308224275.html

(This is NOT a political thread...)

I see a fractured view of "identity" in America today.

(I assert) Much of the views of personal "identity" is idolatry, or wishing
(yearning for something we do not have, which collapses down easily into
sinful yearnings), or a punching bag for racial emotions, or an appeal to
all sorts of blame groups that (supposedly) are causing me to fail to gain
some goal.
********** **********

IDENTITY for a Christian, is supposed to be tied up with peoplehood.
Our identity was fixed, when we left Egypt in the Exodus, and now
WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IDENTIFYING WITH THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

And, so what happens when Christians are fuzzy about their "identity",
and accept a secular definition of identity???

What happens when Christians accept templates of "identity" and try to force America,
and the fair rule of law in America, into a template of "identity" that the foundational
document were never framed to make it? Such as a racial and cultural homogeny?

I see identity problems on both sides of the current Los Angeles rioting.

Christians should not view American as a land of plenty, but where

"Irish need not apply."

The people of God have an identity that is not racial.
Anyone who followed Moses, is in the People of God.

Nor is America a land of opportunity for criminals (of ANY type, even billionaires),
where one can legitimately build one's "identity" as Al Capone did in Chicago.
********** **********

The People of God already have an identity. And it is supposed to be growing into
an entity that brings forth righteous deeds. There are very visual artifacts of
worldly identity on display, in the demonstrating over the ICE raids in Los Angeles.
BUT, I don't think that these worldly concepts of identity are the identity of the
People of God, and I don't think that the People of God ought to be getting
entangled in worldly concepts of identity, to the mangling of the Faith.

I certainly don't think that worldly politicians ought to be dictating what the
definition of Christian identity is.

JimR-OCDS · Jun 10, 2025

Most people have an ego identity attachment. It makes them part of a tribe, so to speak.

I've seen it in race, gender, religion, diets, clubs, and even some jobs.

St John of the Cross and Echart Tolle teach against this and advocate detachment
from ego driven identities.

Unqualified · Jun 10, 2025

you analyse us because we don’t want non citizen criminals in our country, nor anti semitists who rape our women and kids.

Stephen3141 · Jun 14, 2025

Unqualified said:
you analyse us because we don’t want non citizen criminals in our country, nor anti semitists who rape our women and kids.

Could you desine who "us" is, in your response.

I have no idea who you are talking about, or what topic you are
addressing.

I am speaking from the viewpoint of a Christian. But I don't know if you are using "us" to indicate
Christians, or American citizens, or some other group of people (people of semitic background, ...)

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 14, 2025

Stephen3141 said:
I certainly don't think that worldly politicians ought to be dictating what the
definition of Christian identity is.

It is an identity that is still open to interpretation. But for each of us it is also an identity we continue to search out.

Who am I? Who is Christ? Who is God?

These are not questions to argue about, as in my Image, understanding of God is more correct than yours.

Rather, there are there for us in ongoing reflection, formation and spiritual development.

Then we can decide for ourselves what behaviors and policies we can stand for.

bèlla · Jun 14, 2025

The constitution allows us the right to assemble and voice our concerns. What’s happening in LA is wrong and the attacks on officers and businesses are equally so. Violence, vandalism and looting aren’t the appropriate response to things we don’t agree with and we can’t ignore the consequences. We experienced the same a few years ago and many chose not to reopen leaving the residents in a quandary. Target and CVS pulled out and Walmart is doing the same as we speak.

I agree that the polarization is problematic as is the inability to see bad behavior on both sides. Everything is slanted and there’s no middle ground. Which is probably by design.

~bella

DennisF · Jun 14, 2025

Stephen3141 said:
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/article308224275.html
(This is NOT a political thread...)

I see a fractured view of "identity" in America today.

(I assert) Much of the views of personal "identity" is idolatry, or wishing
(yearning for something we do not have, which collapses down easily into
sinful yearnings), or a punching bag for racial emotions, or an appeal to
all sorts of blame groups that (supposedly) are causing me to fail to gain
some goal.
********** **********

IDENTITY for a Christian, is supposed to be tied up with peoplehood.
Our identity was fixed, when we left Egypt in the Exodus, and now
WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IDENTIFYING WITH THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

And, so what happens when Christians are fuzzy about their "identity",
and accept a secular definition of identity???

What happens when Christians accept templates of "identity" and try to force America,
and the fair rule of law in America, into a template of "identity" that the foundational
document were never framed to make it? Such as a racial and cultural homogen[eit]y?

I see identity problems on both sides of the current Los Angeles rioting.

Christians should not view American as a land of plenty, but where

"Irish need not apply."

The people of God have an identity that is not racial.
Anyone who followed Moses, is in the People of God.

Nor is America a land of opportunity for criminals (of ANY type, even billionaires),
where one can legitimately build one's "identity" as Al Capone did in Chicago.
********** **********

The People of God already have an identity. And it is supposed to be growing into
an entity that brings forth righteous deeds. There are very visual artifacts of
worldly identity on display, in the demonstrating over the ICE raids in Los Angeles.
BUT, I don't think that these worldly concepts of identity are the identity of the
People of God, and I don't think that the People of God ought to be getting
entangled in worldly concepts of identity, to the mangling of the Faith.

I certainly don't think that worldly politicians ought to be dictating what the
definition of Christian identity is.

Well put! I thank God for Irish Catholics, though I am neither.
American Christians affirm their citizenship in the kingdom of
God while acknowledging that the US government considers them
citizens of the US. In answer to the question sometimes asked at the
borders of countries or in courts, “Are you a citizen of the US?” my
answer is that Washington considers me so, as demonstrated by a
passport. But that’s Washington; I consider myself to be a citizen of
Christ’s kingdom. That is my identity.

The alien citizenship conferred by nation-states
can be useful in dealing with them (Acts 16:37, 38), but it is their
claim about us and not our claim about ourselves. We can
acknowledge that they have made such a claim about us, and even
use that claim in dealing with states, while affirming that our true
citizenship is with a nation none of them recognizes as such.

As Christians, we are resident aliens in America, with an
exclusive political attachment to Christ’s government. Worldly
government services and claims, along with their corresponding
obligations of obedience, have been widely and deeply accepted by
Christians eager to affirm their loyalty as US citizens. But this
dependence upon the world for basic needs is what biblical
instruction cautions against.

Stephen3141 · Jun 15, 2025

DennisF said:
Well put! I thank God for Irish Catholics, though I am neither.
American Christians affirm their citizenship in the kingdom of
God while acknowledging that the US government considers them
citizens of the US. In answer to the question sometimes asked at the
borders of countries or in courts, “Are you a citizen of the US?” my
answer is that Washington considers me so, as demonstrated by a
passport. But that’s Washington; I consider myself to be a citizen of
Christ’s kingdom. That is my identity.

The alien citizenship conferred by nation-states
can be useful in dealing with them (Acts 16:37, 38), but it is their
claim about us and not our claim about ourselves. We can
acknowledge that they have made such a claim about us, and even
use that claim in dealing with states, while affirming that our true
citizenship is with a nation none of them recognizes as such.

As Christians, we are resident aliens in America, with an
exclusive political attachment to Christ’s government. Worldly
government services and claims, along with their corresponding
obligations of obedience, have been widely and deeply accepted by
Christians eager to affirm their loyalty as US citizens. But this
dependence upon the world for basic needs is what biblical
instruction cautions against.

I really agree with you.

With all this talk of "identity", I think that North American Christians
have little clue what "identity" is, or how that word has been subverted to mean
almost anything.

A lot of the crudest abuses (I assert) of "Christian" identity, do not come from
the biblical teachings about the (identity of the ) People of God, but from
those who assert that the People of God is this or that, or that God himself is
this or that.

North American Christians need to get back to the basic questions of who
Jesus is (says that he is), and what the identity of the People of God is.

And, getting back to the topic of identity, you have to talk about identity groups,
which involves how you get into a group, how the boundaries of the identity group
are defined, who authoritatively defines those bounds, how you maintain a good
standing in that group, and how you can be ejected from that group.
---------- ----------

Being something, is VERY DIFFERENT than IDENTIFYING WITH being something.
Someone who IDENTIFIES with being a barking dog, is a very different thing than
being a barking dog.

And some souless AI tool that is trying to collect quotes from human beings
about "barking dogs", is neither a barking dog, nor a human being who is
identifying with being a barking dog.

RDKirk · Jun 15, 2025

bèlla said:
The constitution allows us the right to assemble and voice our concerns. What’s happening in LA is wrong and the attacks on officers and businesses are equally so. Violence, vandalism and looting aren’t the appropriate response to things we don’t agree with and we can’t ignore the consequences. We experienced the same a few years ago and many chose not to reopen leaving the residents in a quandary. Target and CVS pulled out and Walmart is doing the same as we speak.

I agree that the polarization is problematic as is the inability to see bad behavior on both sides. Everything is slanted and there’s no middle ground. Which is probably by design.

~bella

Literally diabolical design.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 15, 2025

bèlla said:
Violence, vandalism and looting aren’t the appropriate response to things we don’t agree with and we can’t ignore the consequences.

Then why pardon January 6th rioters?

JimR-OCDS · Jun 15, 2025

Akita Suggagaki said:
Then why pardon January 6th rioters?

Not everyone arrested on Jan 6th, was commiting violence. Many just showed up for what they believed
would be a peaceful assembly. They were arrested for merely being in the area and were pardoned by
the president.

You need to listen to what those arrested went through and why they were arrested.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 15, 2025

JimR-OCDS said:
Not everyone arrested on Jan 6th, was commiting violence. Many just showed up for what they believed
would be a peaceful assembly. They were arrested for merely being in the area and were pardoned by
the president.

You need to listen to what those arrested went through and why they were arrested.

You think they all should have been pardoned?

JimR-OCDS · Jun 15, 2025

Akita Suggagaki said:
You think they all should have been pardoned?
View attachment 366353 View attachment 366354 View attachment 366355

If they committed violence, they were not pardon. This is democrate misinformation.

The pardons Trump gave were for those who were arrested for being there, not committing violence or
damage to property.

While we're at it, do you support the auto-pen pardons Biden supposedly gave?

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 15, 2025

JimR-OCDS said:
If they committed violence, they were not pardon. This is democrate misinformation.

The pardons Trump gave were for those who were arrested for being there, not committing violence or
damage to property.

While we're at it, do you support the auto-pen pardons Biden supposedly gave?

"Democrat misinformation"?

These commutations applied to prominent figures in the January 6 events, including Oath Keepers leader Stewart Rhodes with members Kelly Meggs and Roberto Minuta, Proud Boys leaders Ethan Nordean, Jeremy Bertino, and Joseph Biggs, and Proud Boy member Dominic Pezzola, who was the first rioter to breach the Capitol building, all of whom had their sentences reduced to time served "as of January 20, 2025"

The second category consisted of "full, complete, and unconditional" pardons granted to every other defendant convicted in relation to the events of January 6.

From Donald Trump's White House

Granting Pardons And Commutation Of Sentences For Certain Offenses Relating To The Events At Or Near The United States Capitol On January 6, 2021

BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA A PROCLAMATION This proclamation ends a grave national injustice that has been perpetrated upon the

www.whitehouse.gov

DennisF · Jun 15, 2025

Stephen3141 said:
I really agree with you.

With all this talk of "identity", I think that North American Christians
have little clue what "identity" is, or how that word has been subverted to mean
almost anything.

A lot of the crudest abuses (I assert) of "Christian" identity, do not come from
the biblical teachings about the (identity of the ) People of God, but from
those who assert that the People of God is this or that, or that God himself is
this or that.

North American Christians need to get back to the basic questions of who
Jesus is (says that he is), and what the identity of the People of God is.

And, getting back to the topic of identity, you have to talk about identity groups,
which involves how you get into a group, how the boundaries of the identity group
are defined, who authoritatively defines those bounds, how you maintain a good
standing in that group, and how you can be ejected from that group.
---------- ----------

Being something, is VERY DIFFERENT than IDENTIFYING WITH being something.
Someone who IDENTIFIES with being a barking dog, is a very different thing than
being a barking dog.

And some souless AI tool that is trying to collect quotes from human beings
about "barking dogs", is neither a barking dog, nor a human being who is
identifying with being a barking dog.

"Being something, is VERY DIFFERENT than IDENTIFYING WITH being something."

Yes. A Seattle Mariners baseball fan identifies with the Mariners while not being on the player roster and consequently is not in fact a Mariner and is devoid of the behavior of players playing the game (while instead sitting, eating, and shouting a little). Christians are called to both be Christians in behavior and also identify with Christ in our profession of beliefs. We want such an identification to also express who we actually are.

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