What is Christ's rest?

Leaf473 · Jun 8, 2025

guevaraj said:
Brother, it means that God does not change and that what He expected from the Jews He equally expects from us: obedience to the Ten Commandments,

The Ten Commandments only?

Psalm 119:91
Your laws remain to this day, for all things serve you

Peace be with you, my brother

guevaraj said:
...which includes obedience to the corrected "day" for the Sabbath in Hebrews chapter 4.

This is what the LORD says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ (Jeremiah 6:16 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Jun 10, 2025

Leaf473 said:
The Ten Commandments only?

Brother, according to Paul, in the following passage, Jesus, as the Spirit, only replaces the letters etched in stone, the Ten Commandments, and no other law than the Ten Commandments as the only letters etched in stone. Translators have given the impression that he is referring to more than the Ten Commandments, but that is not Paul's original message.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ. It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (circumcision by humans). Our qualification comes from God (Jesus does the circumcision by removing human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments' removal of sin in Judaism). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as our model). This is a covenant not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus). The letter ends in death (sabotaged to not remove sin by human traditions); but the Spirit (Jesus) gives life (Jesus' model of full disobedience of the Ten Commandments). The old way, with letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by human traditions not to remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (disobedience to the Ten Commandments by added human traditions). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the "Spirit" model to image as in a mirror), now that the ~~Holy~~ (added by the translators) Spirit (Jesus) gives life? If the old way, which brings condemnation (Judaism teaching disobedience to the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's teachings of disobedience) gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not even try). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's growing disobedience to the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to disobey the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of their disobedience by canceling God's Commandments with their own human traditions). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the circumciser of Judaism's human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments purpose to remove sin). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they disobey the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying completely the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism's disobedience). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Jun 10, 2025

Leaf473 said:
Cool What's your translation of Hebrews 4?

Brother, my own translation of Hebrews 4 is the NLT. They did a faithful job translating a message they themselves don't obey. I'm sure all translators are against Sabbath-keeping, which is the message they faithfully translated.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. GOD ANNOUNCED THIS THROUGH DAVID MUCH LATER in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now IF JOSHUA HAD SUCCEEDED IN GIVING THEM THIS REST, GOD WOULD NOT HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT ANOTHER DAY of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Jun 10, 2025

guevaraj said:
Brother, according to Paul, in the following passage, Jesus, as the Spirit, only replaces the letters etched in stone, the Ten Commandments, and no other law than the Ten Commandments as the only letters etched in stone. Translators have given the impression that he is referring to more than the Ten Commandments, but that is not Paul's original message.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ. It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (circumcision by humans). Our qualification comes from God (Jesus does the circumcision by removing human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments' removal of sin in Judaism). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as our model). This is a covenant not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus). The letter ends in death (sabotaged to not remove sin by human traditions); but the Spirit (Jesus) gives life (Jesus' model of full disobedience of the Ten Commandments). The old way, with letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by human traditions not to remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (disobedience to the Ten Commandments by added human traditions). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the "Spirit" model to image as in a mirror), now that the ~~Holy~~ (added by the translators) Spirit (Jesus) gives life? If the old way, which brings condemnation (Judaism teaching disobedience to the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's teachings of disobedience) gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not even try). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's growing disobedience to the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to disobey the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of their disobedience by canceling God's Commandments with their own human traditions). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the circumciser of Judaism's human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments purpose to remove sin). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they disobey the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying completely the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism's disobedience). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Well, it looks differently to me

God expected more from the Israelites then keeping just the Ten commandments

Deuteronomy 4:5
Behold, I have taught you statutes and ordinances, even a the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do so in the middle of the land where you go in to possess it

guevaraj said:
Brother, my own translation of Hebrews 4 is the NLT. They did a faithful job translating a message they themselves don't obey. I'm sure all translators are against Sabbath-keeping, which is the message they faithfully translated.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest,

guevaraj said:
...and that time is today.

Amen, today

guevaraj said:
GOD ANNOUNCED THIS THROUGH DAVID MUCH LATER in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now IF JOSHUA HAD SUCCEEDED IN GIVING THEM THIS REST, GOD WOULD NOT HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT ANOTHER DAY of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Shout for joy to the Lord, all you lands!
Serve the Lord with gladness.
Come before his presence with singing Psalm 100

guevaraj · Jun 13, 2025

Leaf473 said:
Well, it looks differently to me

Brother, under the new covenant, the Spirit (Jesus) replaces only the Ten Commandments and no other laws. That's Paul's original message below!

Leaf473 said:
God expected more from the Israelites then keeping just the Ten commandments

Now, you are referring to the Old Covenant when I refer to what Paul says about the New Covenant, where the Spirit (Jesus) replaces the Ten Commandments as the only "letters etched in stone." In the following passage, I clarify my corrections, where the use of the word "laws" is crossed out and replaced with the original message of "letters etched in stone," that is, the Ten Commandments as the only letters etched in stone.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ. It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (circumcision by humans). Our qualification comes from God (Jesus does the circumcision by removing human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments' removal of sin in Judaism). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as our model). This is a covenant not of the ~~written laws~~/letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus). The letter ends in death (sabotaged to not remove sin by human traditions); but the Spirit (Jesus) gives life (Jesus' model of full obedience of the Ten Commandments). The old way, with ~~laws~~/letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by human traditions not to remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (disobedience to the Ten Commandments by added human traditions). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the "Spirit" model to image as in a mirror), now that the ~~Holy~~ (added by the translators) Spirit (Jesus) gives life? If the old way, which brings condemnation (Judaism teaching disobedience to the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's teachings of disobedience) gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not even try). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's growing disobedience to the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to disobey the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of their disobedience by canceling God's Commandments with their own human traditions). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the circumciser of Judaism's human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments purpose to remove sin). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they disobey the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying completely the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism's disobedience). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Jun 13, 2025

guevaraj said:
Brother, under the new covenant, the Spirit (Jesus) replaces only the Ten Commandments...

Jesus replaces the Ten Commandments, that's an interesting idea

guevaraj said:
...and no other laws.

Every other law in the law of Moses is still in place? Another interesting idea

guevaraj said:
That's Paul's original message below!

guevaraj said:
Now, you are referring to the Old Covenant when I refer to what Paul says about the New Covenant,

Yes, because that's what I was asking about back here

guevaraj said:
Brother, it means that God does not change and that what He expected from the Jews He equally expects from us: obedience to the Ten Commandments, which includes obedience to the corrected "day" for the Sabbath in Hebrews chapter 4.

guevaraj said:
...where the Spirit (Jesus) replaces the Ten Commandments as the only "letters etched in stone." In the following passage, I clarify my corrections, where the use of the word "laws" is crossed out and replaced with the original message of "letters etched in stone," that is, the Ten Commandments as the only letters etched in stone.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ. It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (circumcision by humans). Our qualification comes from God (Jesus does the circumcision by removing human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments' removal of sin in Judaism). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as our model). This is a covenant not of the ~~written laws~~/letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus). The letter ends in death (sabotaged to not remove sin by human traditions); but the Spirit (Jesus) gives life (Jesus' model of full obedience of the Ten Commandments). The old way, with ~~laws~~/letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by human traditions not to remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (disobedience to the Ten Commandments by added human traditions). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the "Spirit" model to image as in a mirror), now that the ~~Holy~~ (added by the translators) Spirit (Jesus) gives life? If the old way, which brings condemnation (Judaism teaching disobedience to the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's teachings of disobedience) gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not even try). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's growing disobedience to the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to disobey the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of their disobedience by canceling God's Commandments with their own human traditions). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the circumciser of Judaism's human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments purpose to remove sin). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they disobey the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying completely the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism's disobedience). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)

guevaraj said:
United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Peace be with you, my brother!

The Lord knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked shall perish Psalm 1

Icyspark · Jun 13, 2025

Clare73 said:
Jesus was born, lived, preached and died under the Old Covenant law.

Christ rested on the Sabbath according to the Old Covenant law.

Hi Clare73,

A covenant is simply an agreement. It was the agreement that was faulty, not what was agreed upon. "God found fault with the people ... because they did not remain faithful to [the] covenant." God didn't find fault with His perfect law.

Christ rested on the Sabbath and He never informed anyone that this singular aspect of His perfect law was a problem that needed to end. Nope. He never said it, and it is apparent that His disciples never knew of any such drastic adjustment to Jesus's perfect law had been introduced before Jesus died.

How many commandments are in the Ten Commandment covenant?
If you answered any number other than ten then please tell me, what was God's purpose in attaching a numeral designation to this covenant?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Bob S · Jun 14, 2025

I counted 11 commands that God gave to Israel found in the so-called Ten Commandments.

Clare73 · Jun 14, 2025

Icyspark said:
Hi Clare73,

A covenant is simply an agreement. It was the agreement that was faulty, not what was agreed upon. "God found fault with the people ... because they did not remain faithful to [the] covenant." God didn't find fault with His perfect law.

Christ rested on the Sabbath and He never informed anyone that this singular aspect of His perfect law was a problem that needed to end. Nope. He never said it,

WHhere do we find him informing that the sacrificial system is over?

Not an ironclad rule . . .

guevaraj · Jun 14, 2025

Leaf473 said:
Jesus replaces the Ten Commandments, that's an interesting idea

Brother, Jesus replaces the Ten Commandments as described in the following passage, where the fifth commandment is more fully obeyed after Jesus by circumcising us of the disobedience in Judaism. The problem lies in human reception of the Ten Commandments, not in the Ten Commandments themselves. Judaism failed to fully obey them by having only the "letters etched in stone," and we have Jesus as our Spirit model of obedience superior to that achieved by only the "letters etched in stone."

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Jun 14, 2025

guevaraj said:
Brother, Jesus replaces the Ten Commandments as described in the following passage, where the fifth commandment is more fully obeyed after Jesus by circumcising us of the disobedience in Judaism.

Jesus replaces The Ten Commandments and then makes them more fully obeyed. Interesting idea, brother

guevaraj said:
The problem lies in human reception of the Ten Commandments, not in the Ten Commandments themselves. Judaism failed to fully obey them by having only the "letters etched in stone," and we have Jesus as our Spirit model of obedience superior to that achieved by only the "letters etched in stone."

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Jun 14, 2025

Leaf473 said:
Jesus replaces The Ten Commandments and then makes them more fully obeyed. Interesting idea, brother

Brother, this is how Jesus circumcised us of the sin in Judaism.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by ~~a physical procedure~~/human hands. Christ performed a ~~spiritual~~ circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT fixed)

Jesus is the one who circumcises us from Judaism's teaching about these human traditions that nullify the elimination of sin that the Ten Commandments achieve through obedience. Jesus is our Spirit role model of obedience, superior to Judaism's teaching about disobedience to the Ten Commandments, just as our obedience to the Fifth Commandment is circumcised from human tradition in the following passage.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Jun 14, 2025

guevaraj said:
Brother, this is how Jesus circumcised us of the sin in Judaism.

When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by ~~a physical procedure~~/human hands. Christ performed a ~~spiritual~~ circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NLT fixed)

Jesus is the one who circumcises us from Judaism's teaching about these human traditions that nullify the elimination of sin that the Ten Commandments achieve through obedience. Jesus is our Spirit role model of obedience, superior to Judaism's teaching about disobedience to the Ten Commandments, just as our obedience to the Fifth Commandment is circumcised from human tradition in the following passage.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and

guevaraj said:
‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’

If you're saying that must be obeyed today as well, another interesting idea

guevaraj said:
But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

If killing people who dis their parents will bring us rest in Jesus, another interesting idea, brother

Psalm 119 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness. Your law is truth

Icyspark · Jun 14, 2025

Clare73 said:
WHhere do we find him informing that the sacrificial system is over?

Not an ironclad rule . . .

Hi Clare73,

Consider the following passages:

Matthew 24:1–2; Mark 13:1–2; Luke 21:5–6

"Do you see all these things? ... Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

The Temple in Jerusalem was the center of the sacrificial system. By predicting its destruction, Jesus foretells the end of the physical location where sacrifices occur.

Though He doesn’t explicitly say the system will end, the destruction of the Temple would make it impossible to continue it.

Matthew 21:12–13; Mark 11:15–17; Luke 19:45–46; John 2:13–22

“My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you make it a den of robbers.”

In John 2:19, Jesus adds:
“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (which John explains as referring to His body).

He is both challenging the corruption of the temple system and presenting Himself as the new, true Temple. This shifts the focus from animal sacrifices to Himself.

Luke 22:19–20; Matthew 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24

“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

Jesus uses sacrificial language ("poured out for many") and explicitly inaugurates a “new covenant,” recalling Jeremiah 31:31–34, which anticipates a time when the old covenant (which includes the sacrificial system) will be replaced.

While not always directly from Jesus’ mouth, the Gospel narratives present Jesus as the Lamb of God:

In John 1:29 John the Baptist says: “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”

This is sacrificial imagery. If Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice, no others are needed.

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

guevaraj · Jun 14, 2025

Leaf473 said:
If you're saying that must be obeyed today as well, another interesting idea

Brother, no, because it was not part of the "letters etched in stone." The purpose of this portion is to show the importance God placed on obedience to the fifth commandment under His own nation. However, Judaism disobeyed Him by adding its own human traditions that nullified what God had said in the "letters etched in stone." Remember that Paul singles out the Ten Commandments under the new covenant as the only "letters etched in stone" to which Jesus' pattern of obedience as the Spirit is superior in bringing us into a right relationship with God than the "letters etched in stone." Again, I am referring only to what Paul says about the Ten Commandments under the new covenant in the following passage, which has been mistranslated as dealing with all the laws, when Paul is only referring to the Ten Commandments as the only "letters etched in stone."

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ. It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (circumcision by humans). Our qualification comes from God (Jesus does the circumcision by removing human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments' removal of sin in Judaism). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as our model). This is a covenant not of the ~~written laws~~/letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus). The letter ends in death (sabotaged to not remove sin by human traditions); but the Spirit (Jesus) gives life (Jesus' model of full obedience of the Ten Commandments). The old way, with ~~laws~~/letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by human traditions not to remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (disobedience to the Ten Commandments by added human traditions). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the "Spirit" model to image as in a mirror), now that the ~~Holy~~ (added by the translators) Spirit (Jesus) gives life? If the old way, which brings condemnation (Judaism teaching disobedience to the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's teachings of disobedience) gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not even try). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's growing disobedience to the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to disobey the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of their disobedience by canceling God's Commandments with their own human traditions). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the circumciser of Judaism's human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments purpose to remove sin). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they disobey the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying completely the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism's disobedience). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Jun 14, 2025

guevaraj said:
Brother, no, because it was not part of the "letters etched in stone."

guevaraj said:
The purpose of this portion is to show the importance God placed on obedience to the fifth commandment under His own nation.

Brother, you understand the purpose of laws? Very interesting

Romans 11:34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”

guevaraj said:
However, Judaism disobeyed Him by adding its own human traditions that nullified what God had said in the "letters etched in stone." Remember that Paul singles out the Ten Commandments under the new covenant as the only "letters etched in stone" to which Jesus' pattern of obedience as the Spirit is superior in bringing us into a right relationship with God than the "letters etched in stone." Again, I am referring only to what Paul says about the Ten Commandments under the new covenant in the following passage, which has been mistranslated as dealing with all the laws, when Paul is only referring to the Ten Commandments as the only "letters etched in stone."

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ. It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (circumcision by humans). Our qualification comes from God (Jesus does the circumcision by removing human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments' removal of sin in Judaism). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as our model). This is a covenant not of the ~~written laws~~/letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus). The letter ends in death (sabotaged to not remove sin by human traditions); but the Spirit (Jesus) gives life (Jesus' model of full obedience of the Ten Commandments). The old way, with ~~laws~~/letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by human traditions not to remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (disobedience to the Ten Commandments by added human traditions). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the "Spirit" model to image as in a mirror), now that the ~~Holy~~ (added by the translators) Spirit (Jesus) gives life? If the old way, which brings condemnation (Judaism teaching disobedience to the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way. So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! Since this new way (of imaging as in a mirror the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's teachings of disobedience) gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not even try). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's growing disobedience to the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to disobey the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of their disobedience by canceling God's Commandments with their own human traditions). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the circumciser of Judaism's human traditions that cancel the Ten Commandments purpose to remove sin). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they disobey the Ten Commandments by canceling them with human traditions). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying completely the Ten Commandments by removing Judaism's disobedience). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

guevaraj · Jun 15, 2025

Leaf473 said:
Brother, you understand the purpose of laws? Very interesting

Brother, no, I don't claim to know the mind of God. I'm referring to the importance of that part in the context of Paul replacing the "letters etched in stone" with Jesus as the Spirit, and I'm not speaking about the purpose of that part outside of this context. You seem reluctant to separate what Paul separates when he speaks of the "letters etched in stone" from what is not in them. This passage challenges you as to your ability to separate what Paul separates in the "letters etched in stone" from what is not in them.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Leaf473 · Jun 15, 2025

guevaraj said:
Brother, no, I don't claim to know the mind of God. I'm referring to the importance of that part in the context of Paul replacing the "letters etched in stone" with Jesus as the Spirit,

guevaraj said:
...and I'm not speaking about the purpose of that part outside of this context.

If you understand the purpose, that is amazing, my brother

Psalm 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness. All the peoples have seen his glory

guevaraj said:
You seem reluctant to separate what Paul separates when he speaks of the "letters etched in stone" from what is not in them. This passage challenges you as to your ability to separate what Paul separates in the "letters etched in stone" from what is not in them.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this ~~law(nomos)~~/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Peace be with you, my brother

Psalm 113:4 The Lord is high above all nations, his glory above the heavens

Leaf473 · Jun 15, 2025

The rest in Jesus

Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, on earth peace, good will toward humans

Leaf473 · Jun 15, 2025

May we all have rest in Jesus ✝
Isaiah 54:10
For the mountains may depart, and the hills be removed, but my loving kindness will not depart from you, and my covenant of peace will not be removed,” says the Lord who has mercy on you

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