"Decline of the church"?

JEBofChristTheLord said:

Is the Church of the Lord declining?

This is a common theory in this day, as if the raw head-count was a priority of God. But here are some elements that I'll suggest we should take with great joy:

• We do not anymore have nations of this world claiming themselves to be "christianized" while making war against each other.
• We do not anymore have nations of this world claiming themselves to be "christianized," while stealing from, killing, and torturing those of the mission fields within them.
• We do not anymore have thousands upon thousands of church-leaders trying to help build a Kingdom of Jerusalem of this world, against the would-be inhabitants.

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If I may add....

There is a difference between a congregation in a brick and mortar building, under a 501 c3 with a leader vs the Church with its foundation made by the prophets and apostles where Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Chief cornerstone. This Church is unseen. This Church is made of those who's names are written in the Book of Life. These are individuals, not institutions. These individuals are only a remnant. They are those who walk with Him daily because He has made His Home in them.
Be blessed.

JEBofChristTheLord said:

Is the Church of the Lord declining?

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I wouldn't sweat it.

To begin with, truth is not a popularity contest. There was a time when all the world believed the earth was flat, but it wasn't true. We Jews are a mere 0.2% of the world, and it doesn't bother us in the slightest.

Second, sometimes loss of power and privilege is a good thing. It causes the middle to heat up, and the fringes to fall away. You end up with a better quality group.

As early as the first century Christians began to use catechetical schools to teach doctrine rather than teach Christians how to grow in Christ-likeness. Turning Christianity into an organizational system allowed it to provide the ambitious opportunities to rise to political and military power. The church is perhaps as much a failure as Israel was. This is what we humans do.

The lack of contemporary Christian atrocities is more a result of the ambitious finding other paths to indulge their desires. The wealth and prosperity of the Industrial revolution has created the opportunity for the first time since the flood for so many people to have every imagination of the thoughts of the heart only evil continually.

Is the church in decline? There are people promoting that Jesus is likely to return this year or so. And one thing considered to be a sign of His soon coming is decline of the church. So-o-o > ones can be very ready, then, to claim the church is declining, so they can point to this and say Jesus is about to return.

However > ones declining might not be Jesus Christ's church. What shows is not what God knows.

timf said:

The lack of contemporary Christian atrocities is more a result of the ambitious finding other paths to indulge their desires.

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Possibly, false Christian groups got highjacked by ones warlike and trying to form empires. Plus, now it seems secular people can do their military things without help from big denominational groups.

But now in the United States we are seeing, I would say, how certain politicians can get large numbers of votes by palling with groups of voters. Liberals can get a lot of votes, by saying gay is ok. And others can adopt voters by saying yay-evangelical.

The early church was Christlike. Everything centered around the basic example of Christ. Most of the leaders became martyrs. I think this got lost as the church moved away from the cross and became more interested in world affairs rather than sticking to the unworldly beliefs which made Christians so radically different to the world around them

Its understandable as we can still remember great people and events in the last 100 years as people were around to witness it and its still fresh in our culture. But the more you move away from these events the less they are remembered and other ideas come along and it gets lost.

You hear the church fathers of the late 1st century still talking about the disciples as the last generation and their deeds fresh in the memories. As the disciples were reminding the new churches of Christ they witnessed the next generation was reminding them of the disciples who were reminding them of Christ. Them the next generation was doing the same.

But towards the end of the 2nd century the church became political. Or rather that politics found the church. This came from the outside in. The world had become more of a power and threat to the church in influencing it away from the foundational beliefs and practices. It was becoming the world.

From there its really been a case of more of the same. Except the political State has taken over the church. Or encroached on many denominations where it seems theres a lot more pressure from secular society on the church to conform to secular ideas. Many denominations have gone along to be relevant. Even the fact that the church has split into so many denominations is another sign of how they began rationalising God.

As a result I think there will be an adjustment or some sort. Whenever Christs church is so neglected and lost some sort of reset happens. The Holy spirit will empower people to go back to the basics and shine Christs example as a church.

Maybe the new Pope can point the church in the right direction. It seems the Christian believing world is looking for some sign in these modern times where everyone is worrying about climate change, wars, terror, economic uncertainty, pandemics and lack of meaning and hope.

JEBofChristTheLord said:

Which early church was that?

The one where everyone joining was required to give all of their possessions to the Apostles, and where God killed two who lied about it?

The one where, after that event, everyone scattered in fear?

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I am not sure what that is. I was talking about the church Peter and Paul were setting up. The one where Timothy and Titus were overseers. The one Clement and Ignatius of Antioch led after Peter and Paul and while John was still alive.

If you read the early church fathers they are constantly mentioning Christs example or the example of Peter and Paul and other Christians and how they sacrificed their lives for Christ. Ignatius wrote his letters on the way to his own execution in Rome where Peter and Paul were executed.

He knows he is heading to his death yet is reminding everyone of Christ and looking forward to joining them.

The power of the early church was not just in the words they said but in their example of Christ. They actually were living for Christ. They used the apostles example where all were martryed except John who was still alive as the template for leadership and they exampled that to the church.

This in turn made the church as a beacon of Christ. Like Dr Kings Beloved community in Christ. All at the same time a shinning example and no controversy or issues for the surrounding pagan world to complain about and use against them. In fact this was a bug bear to them to the point as we know many were also martryed.

But primarily it was living as Christ taught in the full. No holds barred. I liken the pagan Greco Roman world to today where the world is growing in hostility to Christ. But instead of sticking to the script of Christlike meekness and a willingness to go to the death for him the church caves in and goes along to be relevant. As though the pagan gods have won.

We need to get back to that quiet meekness and willingness to die for Christ. If and when we do we will see more martrys and persecution which is good. Thats a sign we are on the right track.

Peter talks of a quiet submission and sacrifice like Christ as an example to the world. That this disposition alone without any words spoken turns peoples heads towards God. A shinning beacon without words like a lighthouse on a hill in the darkness.

Nevermind the Ted Talk sermons and the social justice programs and preachings. Helping the poor comes naturally from being like Christ. But first be like Christ which is often quite and humble and just does the job without having to tell or show people how good they are. This is the true church though quiet and meek is a powerful and loud example spiritually in a dark world.

There are Christians who live this way but as a body of people, as a united church of Christ it is hard to find. In nations where Christians are being persecuted to death like China or in the middle east they are living the gospel. But not so much in the west which is suppose to be the ones who lead the way.

So something needs to happen. A great revival and uprising of Christlike leaders who will die for Christ. Nevermind the States restrictions and laws stopping Christ. The more Christians that are being locked up and persecuted against the present pagan regime the better.

So long as they are humble and not reactionary like what is now expected in a politicised world they will shine Christ. When they see so many being unjustly wronged they will turn towards God. While at the same time those who hate Christ will be even more hateful. But that is good.

10. 1 Peter 4:12–14
Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

stevevw said:

There are Christians who live this way but as a body of people, as a united church of Christ it is hard to find. In nations where Christians are being persecuted to death like China or in the middle east they are living the gospel. But not so much in the west which is suppose to be the ones who lead the way.

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I’ve found a lot of those qualities within Quaker teachings and practices. You don’t hear a lot about them but there’s meetings around the world and community is a mainstay. They have a channel on YouTube you can check out if you’re interested. While I don’t agree with everything we’re aligned on the majority and I like the calm I feel in response to what is shared. They’re not afraid to go against the grain and acknowledge wrongs whether it’s popular or not and that’s important in times like these.

~bella

bèlla said:

I’ve found a lot of those qualities within Quaker teachings and practices. You don’t hear a lot about them but there’s meetings around the world and community is a mainstay. They have a channel on YouTube you can check out if you’re interested. While I don’t agree with everything we’re aligned on the majority and I like the calm I feel in response to what is shared. They’re not afraid to go against the grain and acknowledge wrongs whether it’s popular or not and that’s important in times like these.

~bella

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Yes I am sort of familiar with the Quakers. Its funny as they have been stereotypes as strange and alternative. But we see coops and communes nowadays as well trying to opt out of mainstream society. It turns out for practical reasons to be a good way to live.

But I think the main difference to the early church from what I understand is that they certainly were not hiding as far as the gospel was concerned. Paul was beaten 9 times from memory. Timothy was a young bishop but ended up executed and I am sure persecuted along the way. They were a definite presense and known in the community, in the pagan world. Even to the point where the authorities came looking for them.

Which I think was more to do with the spiritual presense than they physical presense. They shone out though they were small in number and the Romans did not like it.

The Franscian Monks I think were very Christlike. They lived a life of poverty helping the poor. They went into the communities helping and preachings. But their actions spoke more than their words. We see this throughout time and I think the west needs another such reset. Especially in this day and age.

stevevw said:

Yes I am sort of familiar with the Quakers. Its funny as they have been stereotypes as strange and alternative. But we see coops and communes nowadays as well trying to opt out of mainstream society. It turns out for practical reasons to be a good way to live.

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They don’t call attention to themselves unnecessarily much like other anabaptist groups but they’re doing His work nonetheless. Quiet doesn’t mean you’re uninvolved.

stevevw said:

The Franscian Monks I think were very Christlike. They lived a life of poverty helping the poor. They went into the communities helping and preachings. But their actions spoke more than their words. We see this throughout time and I think the west needs another such reset. Especially in this day and age.

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You don’t solve a problem by looking back nor is it necessary to rekindle the early church. Every age is confronted with challenges specific to that period and the solutions are found within the same. That‘s the principle shown in Esther 4:14. For example, technology can be a tool to divide and isolate or a medium to educate and support. Media can be a source of degenerate behavior or an opportunity to demonstrate values and a wholesome lifestyle.

We don’t have to get permission to share an opinion or make a difference. The tools are within reach and it’s up to us to use them. We can write books, produce podcasts (radio) or weekly programs (tv), report on local and national concerns (journalism), create educational content (pbs) and so on.

You elected to put your thoughts on the site when they could have been shared with a wider audience on a different medium for greater impact. We have to use the tools at our disposal while we can. Work while the day is here because night is coming and we’ll wish we’d done otherwise. The reset is nigh and we’ll have to adapt. But we haven’t adapted to the current. How will we handle that?

~bella

bèlla said:

They don’t call attention to themselves unnecessarily much like other anabaptist groups but they’re doing His work nonetheless. Quiet doesn’t mean you’re uninvolved.

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True and a big part of the church I think is family and the community around those families. This is foundational for the church and society for that matter.

bèlla said:

You don’t solve a problem by looking back nor is it necessary to rekindle the early church. Every age is confronted with challenges specific to that period and the solutions are found within the same. That‘s the principle shown in Esther 4:14. For example, technology can be a tool to divide and isolate or a medium to educate and support. Media can be a source of degenerate behavior or an opportunity to demonstrate values and a wholesome lifestyle.

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I kind of think spiritually every age is a repeat of the past but in the new social and cultural context. Buts its always about the gospel and Christ. He works the same in all context.

Thats the aspect of the early church I admire. That they still had fresh in their minds the events of Christ and the disciples. Not so much the time context but the disposition towards Christ. Not the politics, or personal experiences or academics. Just total sacrifice to Christ to the point of death.

It is the most powerful example that I believe if it happened in the west today even atheist would turn their heads to God. A good example was Blandina a servant women and around 40 other Christians were martryed including Blandins's master. So here was what was deemed the lowest of low a poor women servant proclaiming Christ as she was being practically dismembered setting the example for the rest which inspired them.

For the Romans this was a strange thing as they premised their culture on male power. Here was a women and the lowest in class showing all the courage and might greater than the Roman macho culture. That would have shocked and made the Romans think who is this Christ that they are willing to die for.

bèlla said:

We don’t have to get permission to share an opinion or make a difference. The tools are within reach and it’s up to us to use them. We can write books, produce podcasts (radio) or weekly programs (tv), report on local and national concerns (journalism), create educational content (pbs) and so on.

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Yeah it has its place. But sometimes you wonder are we building some earthly uptopia or are we building Gods Kingdom. Information is important. It empowers people to make better choices. But ultimately theres only one choice and the more the light is shone on Christ which is being like Him the better.

bèlla said:

You elected to put your thoughts on the site when they could have been shared with a wider audience on a different medium for greater impact.

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I don't think I should do that, I may scare people away of cause trouble lol. I get what you mean. Yes it can be a powerful tool and I don't mean get rid of this medium altogether. Just remembering that its really about the act of being like Christ. The modern church can become a bit complacent and comfortable.

Not saying every church. But I look at some and I don't see too much difference between secular practices. Similar levels of financial status, seem to be doing pretty good. I would have thought a church like in the time of Christ would be full of poor people, empoverished itself, forget about the flash house, get what you need and give the rest to help others.

I don't know. If everyone was being like Christ said like the Good Samaritan then we should see a hell of a lot more activity to the point where Christians are sacrificing their careers, living poor and dedicating most of the time to the church and helping others. Thats if we are truely living for the Kingdom and not this world.

bèlla said:

We have to use the tools at our disposal while we can. Work while the day is here because night is coming and we’ll wish we’d done otherwise. The reset is nigh and we’ll have to adapt. But we haven’t adapted to the current. How will we handle that?

~bella

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Yeah that makes sense. If the tools help you get there faster and more efficiently so long as its the right message then thats good. Your right I think certain words and messages can penetrate said in the right way.

I am more a visual person. Symbols are powerful like the fish symbol the early church used. They have to be good because its a jungle out there of competing narratives. But then if its Christs truth it should stand out.