Scientific Foreknowledge in the Bible

SBfaithful

Active Member
Mar 11, 2003
256
2
48
Houston
Visit site
✟393.00
Faith
Baptist
These could have already been discussed on this forum but I have not seen mention of it yet. It is very interesting to me. I would like to here others thoughts on this.

Seems to me that the Old Testament authors had knowledge that could only have been gained through divine inspiration.

The Moon:

Isaiah 13:10

...the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Ezekiel 32:7

...I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

It sounds to me like the moon not shining is a direct effect of the sun being covered. If that is not direct enough what about

Job 25:5

Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not...

I have more of these concerning stars, meteorology,biology, hydrology, and more.
 

euphoric

He hates these cans!!
Jun 22, 2002
480
5
47
Visit site
✟8,271.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Today at 08:24 AM SBfaithful said this in Post #1

These could have already been discussed on this forum but I have not seen mention of it yet. It is very interesting to me. I would like to here others thoughts on this.

Seems to me that the Old Testament authors had knowledge that could only have been gained through divine inspiration.

The Moon:

Isaiah 13:10

...the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Ezekiel 32:7

...I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

It sounds to me like the moon not shining is a direct effect of the sun being covered. If that is not direct enough what about

Job 25:5

Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not...

I have more of these concerning stars, meteorology,biology, hydrology, and more.

Only under the most tortured interpretation could you conclude that those verses are ascribing moonlight to refracted sunlight.  It seems much more plausible that the verses are simply saying that it will be dark and neither the sun nor moon will shine.  I see no evidence that they understood a cause and effect relationship.

-brett
 
Upvote 0

SBfaithful

Active Member
Mar 11, 2003
256
2
48
Houston
Visit site
✟393.00
Faith
Baptist
The stars:

Genesis 22:17

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore...

Jeremiah 33:22

As the host of the heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured...

Ptolemy counted 1,056 stars, Brahe counted 777, Kepler counted 1,005. All they had to do was read the Bible and realize they would not be able to count them. Will we ever count all the stars?

Scientists can only estimate how many stars are in the heavens and the current estimate I believe is 10 to the 21st. The estimate of the grains of sand on the earth is 10 to the 25th. When scientists discover more stars and come to an agreeable estimate as to the grains of sand on the earth wouldn't it be funny if the two matched.

1 Corinthians 15:41

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

How did Paul know that stars differed from one another?
 
Upvote 0

Arikay

HI
Jan 23, 2003
12,674
207
40
Visit site
✟21,317.00
Faith
Taoist
Well, one thing you will notice is that the bible only predicts things in hindsight.
If the bible is a scientific textbook, can you use the bible to make a prediction that we have not figured out yet, and then have the evidence match this prediction?

Well, your scripture seems to show a lack of scientific knowledge (which is expected concerning the time it was written in).

But first the moon. It does not take divine inspiration to figure out the sun lights the moon.

Im sure the people of the OT got to see a Solar Eclipse. When they saw that the moon moves infront of the sun, and loses its glow (is black), im sure they started to question wether the moon actualy produces light. Leaving the only other light producers in the sky, the stars and the sun.

Now, the moon can be up during the day and is visible. The only light source (between the sun and stars) thats visible is the sun.

So you could assume the sun lights the moon.

Now there are other possibilities, but it doesnt take too much logic to come to the conclusion the sun is what makes the moon glow. And I Didnt need divine inspiration. :)

However, you posted that the scripture says this:

...I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

Um, When was the last time you saw a cloud that could cover the sun and stop the moon from shining?

This seems to show that they lacked the knowledge of where the sun, moon and clouds, were compared to each other.
Should we just ignore scientific error?

Today at 12:24 AM SBfaithful said this in Post #1

These could have already been discussed on this forum but I have not seen mention of it yet. It is very interesting to me. I would like to here others thoughts on this.

Seems to me that the Old Testament authors had knowledge that could only have been gained through divine inspiration.

The Moon:

Isaiah 13:10

...the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Ezekiel 32:7

...I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

It sounds to me like the moon not shining is a direct effect of the sun being covered. If that is not direct enough what about

Job 25:5

Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not...

I have more of these concerning stars, meteorology,biology, hydrology, and more.
 
Upvote 0

SBfaithful

Active Member
Mar 11, 2003
256
2
48
Houston
Visit site
✟393.00
Faith
Baptist
Today at 09:23 AM Arikay said this in Post #5

Well, one thing you will notice is that the bible only predicts things in hindsight.

What do you mean hindsight? The people of those times did not know of these things. I was taught that we didn't know the stars were infinite until 1940. I was taught that we didn't know there was a place that was void of stars in the north until the 19th century. But Job 26:7 seemed to think so. The Bible was written long before these things were known. Tell me why Ptolemy thought he counted them all. Or, why was he even trying?


Today at 09:23 AM Arikay said this in Post #5

If the bible is a scientific textbook, can you use the bible to make a prediction that we have not figured out yet, and then have the evidence match this prediction?

The Bible is not a scientific textbook. It is just interesting to see how many things they knew, that others of the time would not have.
Today at 09:23 AM Arikay said this in Post #5

Well, your scripture seems to show a lack of scientific knowledge (which is expected concerning the time it was written in).

But first the moon. It does not take divine inspiration to figure out the sun lights the moon.

Im sure the people of the OT got to see a Solar Eclipse. When they saw that the moon moves infront of the sun, and loses its glow (is black), im sure they started to question wether the moon actualy produces light. Leaving the only other light producers in the sky, the stars and the sun.

Now, the moon can be up during the day and is visible. The only light source (between the sun and stars) thats visible is the sun.

So you could assume the sun lights the moon.


Now there are other possibilities, but it doesnt take too much logic to come to the conclusion the sun is what makes the moon glow. And I Didnt need divine inspiration. :)


I'll give you that. It makes sense to me.

Today at 09:23 AM Arikay said this in Post #5

However, you posted that the scripture says this:

...I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

Um, When was the last time you saw a cloud that could cover the sun and stop the moon from shining?

This seems to show that they lacked the knowledge of where the sun, moon and clouds, were compared to each other.
Should we just ignore scientific error?


That was Ezekiel 32:7 from the NIV, on this thread I am using the KJV. He was saying that God would cover the sun, which he is very capable of doing. I on't agree that this is scientifis error.


[/QUOTE]
 
Upvote 0

Arikay

HI
Jan 23, 2003
12,674
207
40
Visit site
✟21,317.00
Faith
Taoist
:)

What do you mean hindsight? The people of those times did not know of these things. I was taught that we didn't know the stars were infinite until 1940. I was taught that we didn't know there was a place that was void of stars in the north until the 19th century. But Job 26:7 seemed to think so. The Bible was written long before these things were known. Tell me why Ptolemy thought he counted them all. Or, why was he even trying?

What I mean by hindsight is that the bible only seems to have scientific information in it, after science has found it.
Its interesting that many years ago, scripture from the bible was used as part of the belief that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun revolved around us.

One interesting thing is that a current count of our stars might still be wrong. As the stars are now very old (depending on what kind and how far away they are). Just recently astronomers got to watch two stars hit each other and melt together. In reality that event happend many many years ago, but it is only Just now getting to earth.

I do agree, its amazing what the people did know. But I wouldnt think the information was too grand to have only been god given.
An interesting aspect of god given information is the fact that the Egyptians and the chinese seem to have been much more advanced scientifically than gods select group.

I don't agree that this is scientific error.

How can you not agree that its a scientific error? A cloud exists in the atmosphere of earth. The sun exists 90 some odd million miles away and the moon exists around 240,000 miles away. Its imossible for a cloud in our atmosphere to get in between the two.
 
Upvote 0

SBfaithful

Active Member
Mar 11, 2003
256
2
48
Houston
Visit site
✟393.00
Faith
Baptist
Today at 10:10 AM Arikay said this in Post #8

:)

What do you mean hindsight? The people of those times did not know of these things. I was taught that we didn't know the stars were infinite until 1940. I was taught that we didn't know there was a place that was void of stars in the north until the 19th century. But Job 26:7 seemed to think so. The Bible was written long before these things were known. Tell me why Ptolemy thought he counted them all. Or, why was he even trying?

What I mean by hindsight is that the bible only seems to have scientific information in it, after science has found it.
Its interesting that many years ago, scripture from the bible was used as part of the belief that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun revolved around us.

One interesting thing is that a current count of our stars might still be wrong. As the stars are now very old (depending on what kind and how far away they are). Just recently astronomers got to watch two stars hit each other and melt together. In reality that event happend many many years ago, but it is only Just now getting to earth.

I do agree, its amazing what the people did know. But I wouldnt think the information was too grand to have only been god given.
An interesting aspect of god given information is the fact that the Egyptians and the chinese seem to have been much more advanced scientifically than gods select group.

I don't agree that this is scientific error.

How can you not agree that its a scientific error? A cloud exists in the atmosphere of earth. The sun exists 90 some odd million miles away and the moon exists around 240,000 miles away. Its imossible for a cloud in our atmosphere to get in between the two.
There is no scripture that says the earth is the center of the universe. If there is please show it to me. It is true that the early church accepted that. But not due to a verse. It just sounded good to them and they ran with it; perhaps a little too far.

I do not believe that is scientific error because like I said, this is what the Lord was saying that he would do. And, IMO, he can do that.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnR7

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2002
25,258
209
Ohio
✟29,532.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Today at 03:52 AM euphoric said this in Post #2

Only under the most tortured interpretation could you conclude that those verses are ascribing moonlight to refracted sunlight. 
-brett

"Tortured"?

That is a interesting word you have there "refracted". What a luxery you have with the English language at your disposel with over 200,000 words to choose from. In fact, there are people who say there are over 2 million different English words.

Did you know in the Hebrew there are only about 6000 words that come from about 500 base words. They were a little bit more limited in what they had to work with.
 
Upvote 0

Arikay

HI
Jan 23, 2003
12,674
207
40
Visit site
✟21,317.00
Faith
Taoist
I believe one of the scriptures used was the one that says the earth stood still and could not be moved. That would mean that the sun, moon and stars needed to move around an unmoving earth.

The Heliocentric universe was in direct contradiction to this scripture, as it suggested that the earth moved around the sun.

Today at 02:21 AM SBfaithful said this in Post #9


There is no scripture that says the earth is the center of the universe. If there is please show it to me. It is true that the early church accepted that. But not due to a verse. It just sounded good to them and they ran with it; perhaps a little too far.

I do not believe that is scientific error because like I said, this is what the Lord was saying that he would do. And, IMO, he can do that.
 
Upvote 0

euphoric

He hates these cans!!
Jun 22, 2002
480
5
47
Visit site
✟8,271.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Today at 10:31 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #11



"Tortured"?

That is a interesting word you have there "refracted". What a luxery you have with the English language at your disposel with over 200,000 words to choose from. In fact, there are people who say there are over 2 million different English words.

Did you know in the Hebrew there are only about 6000 words that come from about 500 base words. They were a little bit more limited in what they had to work with.

So what?  SBFaithful is trying to assert that the Bible contains foreknowledge of the fact that the moon's light actually comes from the sun.  My response was that the verse in no way implies that without adding significantly to what it actually says.  The verses he cited are much more likely to be a reflection of the primitive understanding of astronomy.

For example, in the verses regarding the sun, the author makes no connection between the moon and sunlight.  He simply says that both objects will stop giving off their light.  SBFaithful seems to be, in hindsight, placing a modern frame of reference on a fairly ambiguous verse and asserting that it was there all along.  I don't see that conclusion being warranted at all.

-brett
 
Upvote 0

SBfaithful

Active Member
Mar 11, 2003
256
2
48
Houston
Visit site
✟393.00
Faith
Baptist
Today at 11:18 AM Arikay said this in Post #12

I believe one of the scriptures used was the one that says the earth stood still and could not be moved. That would mean that the sun, moon and stars needed to move around an unmoving earth.

The Heliocentric universe was in direct contradiction to this scripture, as it suggested that the earth moved around the sun.

Could you please tell me what verse you are getting that from. Perhaps I would be able to explain it.

What about Job 26:7?

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.


Ecclesiastes 1:6

The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to its circuits.

Circulation of the atmosphere?

Job 28:25

to make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

The fact that the air has weight was not proven until about 300 years ago.
 
Upvote 0

SBfaithful

Active Member
Mar 11, 2003
256
2
48
Houston
Visit site
✟393.00
Faith
Baptist
The chemical nature of the flesh:

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19
...till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Was that a lucky guess that everything in our body is from the earth?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SBfaithful

Active Member
Mar 11, 2003
256
2
48
Houston
Visit site
✟393.00
Faith
Baptist
hydrologic cycle:

Psalm 135:7
He causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries.

Job 36:27-28
For he maketh small the drops of water: the pour down rain according to the vapor thereof; which the clouds do drop and distill upon man abundantly.
 
Upvote 0

SBfaithful

Active Member
Mar 11, 2003
256
2
48
Houston
Visit site
✟393.00
Faith
Baptist
Recirculation of water:

Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

Job 38:16
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

Springs in the ocean? Job was written most likely around 2000-1800 B.C.
What incredible insight they had. I do not think, IMHO, that this would have been written without divine inspiration.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Frumious Bandersnatch

Contributor
Mar 4, 2003
6,390
334
77
Visit site
✟15,931.00
Faith
Unitarian
Could you please tell me what verse you are getting that from. Perhaps I would be able to explain it.

1 Chronicles 16:30: " Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Psalm 93:1 "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10: Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously...."

Psalm 104:5: " Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." 

The sun goes around the earth in a circuit and heats the entire universe:

Ecclesiastes 1, 5:"The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose."

Psalm 19:4-6 Their line [the heavens] is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

And of course Joshua stopped the sun, not the rotation of the earth.

Joshua 10:12-13: "Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

Then there is Isaiah 38:8

"Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees...ten degrees backward. So THE SUN RETURNED ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down...." (Isaiah 38:8)

What about Job 26:7?

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

He hangeth it fixed and immobile as well.

Ecclesiastes 1:6

The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to its circuits.

Circulation of the atmosphere?

Or just the fact that the wind changes directions from time to time. This seems more like a personification of the wind to me. 

Job 28:25

to make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

The fact that the air has weight was not proven until about 300 years ago.

So you never walked against the wind and felt the "weight" of the wind pressing against you?  

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19
...till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Was that a lucky guess that everything in our body is from the earth?

Well a lot of our body comes from eating plants and plants use carbon dioxide from the air as a carbon source.


Psalm 135:7
He causeth the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings for the rain; he bringeth the wind out of his treasuries.

I thought we gave up the idea Gods throwing lightening bolts some time ago.

Job 36:27-28
For he maketh small the drops of water: the pour down rain according to the vapor thereof; which the clouds do drop and distill upon man abundantly.

Wow they figured out that rain came from clouds! There's a great scientific relevation.

Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

So they observed that rivers flow in to the sea and the seas are not overflowing the land. What's so special about that?

Job 38:16
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

Springs in the ocean? Job was written most likely around 2000-1800 B.C.
What incredible insight they had. I do not think, IMHO, that this would have been written without divine inspiration.
Or they observed springs in lakes, streams and rivers and extrapolated that such thing existed in the ocean.

If the Bible said that Joshua said, "Earth stop thou rotating so that the day continues" I would be a lot more impressed.

The Frumious Bandersnatch
 
Upvote 0