For evolutionists that were christians at one time.

ikester7579 · Apr 10, 2003

Since comming here, I have had some evolutionists tell me that they were christains at one time(hence, believing in God only). There are many people who believed in God but fell from their faith in him. Most of the time it all boils down to the same reason(which I'll address later).  

When you become a christain it is hard to let go of the way things used to be and some of the friends you have. On earth you are judged by others who you associate with(hang around). And if you become a person of God you are made fun of, mocked and sometimes even beat up for your faith by those same people who used to be your friends. Now you feel all alone and being made fun of and mocked is not very comforting. So your faith is being tested and it is at this point you will make a decision. This is the classic point the Bible speaks of about the struggle between good and evil(the struggle for your soul).

It is at this point the Devil will break out the heavy artillary and your strength in the word of God will be tested. And it feels like the lowest point in your life because it is at this time that you will either feel betrayed and concede to the old life style, or you will reach for the word of God for strength.

Making a complete change from the lifestyle that your used to is scary. And the Bible never said it would be easy (Ex: Read the book of Job). Though I very seriously doubt any of us would be tested like that. It is a fine example of how strong a bound between man and God can be. Job even said that he would not give up his faith, even if God slayed him and took his life.

In this life here on earth we have everything made easy for us. Though it may seem hard at times it is really easy. So when something comes up that is hard we usually take the easy way out. And this is what it all boils down to. Being a christain is hard so we choose the easy and become bitter because we feel betrayed. And what makes us feel betrayed is that we are told all these nice things about being a christain and it sounds easy but it's not.

God's words, rules, and laws are very strick. Not even the most devout christian can truly say I can do all this. And this is the reason why so many people have fallen in and out of being a child of God. And this is the reason God had to send his son(Jesus) to die on the cross. To make the way easier by the blood of his son that was shed on the cross.

I myself, have fallen in and out of being a child of God. This is the reason I write this. I can relate to it. So if you think when I post that I do not understand were your comming form, I understand a lot more than you think. This is the reason I try not to resort to personal attacks, because in a way I would be attacking myself, because I have been there.

Nathan Poe · Apr 10, 2003

I've never seen you in this forum before, but your number of posts tells me you're not a newbie to the Forums.

I take it you assume that it's impossible to be a Christian who believes in evolution.

So I'll take you through the baby steps.

Evolution is not Atheism

Evolution does not conflict with Cristianity. Evolution only conflicts with a literal, word-for-word reading of the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis.

I also notice that there's nothing in your original post which so much as mentions evolution in any sort of detail. You seem to imply that evolutionary theory is part of the Devil's "heavy artillary" to lead Christians astray. I feel it is only fair to warn you that this approach has been tried before. It is never successful. Some of the less patient members of this board, Christian and Atheist alike, are going to take you to the woodshed should you persist.

The bulk of your post is certainly inspirational, but it belongs more in the General apologetics or Fellowship section. Perhaps a Mod can move it.

Welcome to the S/C/E board.

ikester7579 · Apr 10, 2003

Today at 09:22 AM Nathan Poe said this in Post #2

I've never seen you in this forum before, but your number of posts tells me you're not a newbie to the Forums.

Really? Me and you have been in a few debates. My new sig and avatar might have thrown you off.

I take it you assume that it's impossible to be a Christian who believes in evolution.

So I'll take you through the baby steps.

Evolution is not Atheism

Evolution does not conflict with Cristianity. Evolution only conflicts with a literal, word-for-word reading of the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis.

I also notice that there's nothing in your original post which so much as mentions evolution in any sort of detail. You seem to imply that evolutionary theory is part of the Devil's "heavy artillary" to lead Christians astray. I feel it is only fair to warn you that this approach has been tried before. It is never successful. Some of the less patient members of this board, Christian and Atheist alike, are going to take you to the woodshed should you persist.

Click to expand...

I was talking of a spiritual conflict of living in the old ways compared to living in Christ and how the Devil will do anything to get you back. If I would have been refering to evolutions being the devil's heavy artillary, I would of said it. And I have been taken to the wood shed before LOL. Won't be the first time.[/QUOTE]

The bulk of your post is certainly inspirational, but it belongs more in the General apologetics or Fellowship section. Perhaps a Mod can move it.

Welcome to the S/C/E board.

[/QUOTE]

98% of my posts have been here S/C/E section.

My avatar used to be a stone foot print and before that it was Awesome God. I have been away from the forum for a while because my computer took a dump and it took me about 3-4 weeks to upgrade to what I wanted($$). Speed takes money and I like to build my own pc's.

Nathan Poe · Apr 10, 2003

Ah yes, I remember you now. Yor're right, the new AV threw me off. Still, I'm surprised you'd make such a rookie mistake. Christians can't be evolutionists? You know better than that...

Taffsadar · Apr 10, 2003

Today at 02:46 PM Nathan Poe said this in Post #4

Ah yes, I remember you now. Yor're right, the new AV threw me off. Still, I'm surprised you'd make such a rookie mistake. Christians can't be evolutionists? You know better than that...

It's not a rookie mistake. It's misleading people to try to get the evolution=atheism.

Yahweh Nissi · Apr 10, 2003

Thanks for that post ikester, I found it inspirational too :clap:

.  But could you please clarify where you stand on evolution/creation and what relevance you think it has to this post.  I am not exactly sure what you are getting at. 

Personally, I am an evangelical Christian, I believe 'evolution' was the means by which God created and I do not think that a person's views on this subject are particularly important with regards to faith and salvation.

lucaspa · Apr 10, 2003

Today at 08:55 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #1

Since comming here, I have had some evolutionists tell me that they were christains at one time(hence, believing in God only). 

Ikester, Christians who accept evolution are still Christians.  You are using "evolutionist" as being "atheist" and it's not.

Have you ever read Finding Darwin's God by Kenneth Miller?

WinAce · Apr 10, 2003

It wasn't really any reason excepting realizing that gods were as fictional as UFOs and garden gnomes for me.

lucaspa · Apr 10, 2003

Today at 09:42 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #3 

I was talking of a spiritual conflict of living in the old ways compared to living in Christ and how the Devil will do anything to get you back. If I would have been refering to evolutions being the devil's heavy artillary, I would of said it. 

So where do you think evolution comes in when you speak of "living in the old ways" and "living in Christ"?

I think creationism is the Devil's way of getting you out of Christianity.

seebs · Apr 10, 2003

I'm pretty sure I'm a Christian, but what's that got to do with evolution? I'm not an "electronicist who used to be a Christian", even though I believe that the electron theory of electricity is probably the correct one.

ikester7579 · Apr 11, 2003

I see that the questioning here all adds up to one thing. Does evolution fit in God's word?To answer this question for each and everyone of you, I'll have to ask a few questions. Some of these questions might seem harsh, there not meant to be. And I'm not pointing my finger at anyone when quoting God's word. But lets get to the questions.

1. Do you think God is capable of lying?

2. Is it okay for us to omit certain chapters and verses so that what we believe will fit?

3. Who on this earth has the authority to judge God and his word and by what authority is this based on? In other words, What standards does this person have to meet?

4. What makes that person(the judge of God) better than God?, For he would have to be better to be able to do such a thing.

5. Do you think that God approves of such things?

6. And if we are able to judge God by those standards, then why did God have to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins? For we would have to be better than God to judge him and his word, which would make the death of his son worthless. For if we are better than God the shedding of blood would not have been needed.

I wrote these questions so that you could better understand that God's word is very much entertwined in it self. Every part of God's word relies upon every other part in order for it to stand and be His word. When you change or omit things here and there you start to break the foundations and laws in which it was written for. For if any part of his word is a lie, then all of it is. Which makes God a liar also.

Then you have to ask yourself that if God lies, What evidence do you have to back this up? Is it 100% fact or is it theories. And would this be accepted by God on judgement day?

And the final question: Would "you" accept being sent to Jail for murder on evidence that was based on theories and not fact?

When you stand before God on judgement day and are asked to show your evidence that proves God lied and his word needed to be changed. I hope you have more than theories to back your evidence up. For if you don't, your gonna not like the judgement that is based on the fact of your actions.

Arikay · Apr 11, 2003

Two things.

First of all, Im still not sure you understand what a scientific theory is.

Second, its always sad (IMHO) when creationists must resort to "do you really want to go to hell?" threats. (but thats just my opinion.

ikester7579 · Apr 11, 2003

Today at 04:43 AM Arikay said this in Post #12

Two things.

First of all, Im still not sure you understand what a scientific theory is.

Second, its always sad (IMHO) when creationists must resort to "do you really want to go to hell?" threats. (but thats just my opinion.

So there is no Hell or judgement day? Please tell us more.

And what is the difference when you put the word "theory" at the end of creation compared to science? Does the definition change for the word "theory" when different words are put in front of it? And when does theory become absolute truth? A truth that would stand up to the judgement of God and be accepted by God? And who would be able to over rule the word of God on this?

Freodin · Apr 11, 2003

Today at 10:38 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #11

2. Is it okay for us to omit certain chapters and verses so that what we believe will fit?

3. Who on this earth has the authority to judge God and his word and by what authority is this based on? In other words, What standards does this person have to meet?

Two answers on that.

2. Yes, definitly. It has to be okay, or else the Bible you read would not exist.

3. A universal concile of the Church has this authority. I was at such a concile that "The Word of God" was decided on.
The standard they used was a majority vote. The personal standard was well below that: to ensure that the "right" thing was voted, the members of that illustrous and holy circle used all kind of vile methods, up to blackmail and murder.

ikester7579 · Apr 11, 2003

Today at 05:03 AM Freodin said this in Post #14

Two answers on that.

2. Yes, definitly. It has to be okay, or else the Bible you read would not exist.

3. A universal concile of the Church has this authority. I was at such a concile that "The Word of God" was decided on.
The standard they used was a majority vote. The personal standard was well below that: to ensure that the "right" thing was voted, the members of that illustrous and holy circle used all kind of vile methods, up to blackmail and murder.

2.

Matthew 5:16-20

 16.  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
 17.  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
 18.  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
 19.  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 20.  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17

17.  And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

We see in verse 18 and 19, that to change the law(which is God's word) has it's rewards(least in the kingdom). And in verse 20 we see that it may even go as far as to block your entrance to heaven.

3.

There is no where in God's word does it give any one person or one church the athority to change the words or meanings of God's word. These people took it upon themselfs to do so. Setting themselfs above God's word and thus God himself. An it is because of this challenge to God's word, they reaped what they sowed. And resorted to blackmail and murder. For if it were right what they had done, they would not had these things take place.

Arikay · Apr 11, 2003

Well, yes, scientific theory is different from a normal theory.

A theory like "I've got a theory, it could be bunnies." Is just a plain use of the word theory, to mean an opinion.

However, a scientific theory, like the "theory of evolution is more than just an opinion.

Wikipedia helps explain it:

"Scientific Models, Theories and Laws

The terms "hypothesis", "model", "theory" and, "law" are often used incorrectly when applied to scientific ideas. (Let alone that often a hypothesis becomes a dogma or a taboo issue by the passing of the centuries and the immense inertia represented by the huge number of its desperate supporters.)

In general a hypothesis is a contention that has not (yet) been sustained or refuted, as one or more predictions made from it have not yet been tested. However, once the predictive phase has been carried out (at least to some degree) and there is some experimental evidence that supports the hypothesis then it will often begin to be referred to as a "model".

Groups of models may be combined into a "theory"; such as the theory of evolution by natural selection, or the theory of electromagnetism.

Models and theories that have withstood the test of time (and many experimental tests), and that have not been falsified by credible, repeatable experimental evidence or observation, may eventually acquire the 'status' of a "law".

It is a fundamental tenet of the scientific method that all "results" are provisional, and this must include the so-called "laws". Newton's "law of gravitation" is a famous example of a "law" that has been found to be only a partially correct (see general relativity description of gravity and the behavior of matter in motion). "

"they reaped what they sowed. "

Yet, we still use bibles with misstranslations and missing sections.

Nathan Poe · Apr 11, 2003

Today at 04:38 AM ikester7579 said this in Post #11

I see that the questioning here all adds up to one thing. Does evolution fit in God's word?To answer this question for each and everyone of you, I'll have to ask a few questions. Some of these questions might seem harsh, there not meant to be. And I'm not pointing my finger at anyone when quoting God's word. But lets get to the questions.

1. Do you think God is capable of lying?

The Bible says He isn't

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

But that He is.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

And if you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then He must be lying at least once, which makes him capable.

2. Is it okay for us to omit certain chapters and verses so that what we believe will fit?

Is it okay? probably not. Is it done? All the time.

3. Who on this earth has the authority to judge God and his word and by what authority is this based on? In other words, What standards does this person have to meet?

Apparantly, anyone who accepts the Bible as the be-all and end-all, and think God is only what the book says He is.

4. What makes that person(the judge of God) better than God?, For he would have to be better to be able to do such a thing.

They seem to think they are.

5. Do you think that God approves of such things?

If He does, I wouldn't consider Him worthy of worship. Would you?

6. And if we are able to judge God by those standards, then why did God have to send his son Jesus to die on the cross for our sins? For we would have to be better than God to judge him and his word, which would make the death of his son worthless. For if we are better than God the shedding of blood would not have been needed.

Well, most Bible literalists I've met tend to have a superiority complex. "I know the Bible and you don't. I'm saved and you're not. God loves me; too bad about you."

It's an ego thing.

I wrote these questions so that you could better understand that God's word is very much entertwined in it self. Every part of God's word relies upon every other part in order for it to stand and be His word. When you change or omit things here and there you start to break the foundations and laws in which it was written for. For if any part of his word is a lie, then all of it is. Which makes God a liar also.

Which is what makes Biblical literalists so zealous. They have built their faith on a human text like a house of cards. Yank out one card, and the whole thing comes crashing down.

Do you believe that God would design such a fragile belief system? I'd like to give him more credit than that. Which is precisely what makes Biblical literalism a human invention. Only humans could screw religion up this badly.

Then you have to ask yourself that if God lies, What evidence do you have to back this up? Is it 100% fact or is it theories. And would this be accepted by God on judgement day?

We have your Bible which tells us that God lies. Either it's the truth, which means God lies, or it's not, which makes the Word of God a lie, which means God lies.

Heads I win, tails you lose.

And the final question: Would "you" accept being sent to Jail for murder on evidence that was based on theories and not fact?

The evidence is that the testimony does not coincide with the fact. Since the facts can't lie, the testimony must be false.

When you stand before God on judgement day and are asked to show your evidence that proves God lied and his word needed to be changed. I hope you have more than theories to back your evidence up. For if you don't, your gonna not like the judgement that is based on the fact of your actions.

God lies. He admitted to it. Next question.

Or are you all out of things to threaten us scoffers with?

JohnR7 · Apr 11, 2003

Today at 07:26 AM Nathan Poe said this in Post #17

Well, most Bible literalists I've met tend to have a superiority complex. "I know the Bible and you don't. I'm saved and you're not. God loves me; too bad about you."

Yes, to bad, so sad for you, that you do not know the love that God has for you. That you have not experanced the kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, grace and mercy of God.

It's an ego thing.

Leggo my eggo

(for those without kids, thats a veggie tale video.

Cantuar · Apr 11, 2003

1. Do you think God is capable of lying?

If God said one thing about the Earth and universe in the Bible and arranged for the Earth and universe themselves to contradict what he said in the Bible, then it follows that he's capable of lying. That's the aspect of it that really does turn people off Christianity if they're made to accept the whole package of young-Earth creationism and biblical literalism along with the rest of Christianity - they have to accept that either the Bible or the creation itself is a lie. The people who don't have to accept the literal Genesis in order to be Christian aren't faced with this problem because for them God isn't a liar anywhere.

Aradia · Apr 11, 2003

JohnR7: "Yes, to bad, so sad for you, that you do not know the love that God has for you. That you have not experanced the kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, grace and mercy of God."

God allowed satan to destroy Job's family and health in order to prove his faith.
God pressed the giant reset button in the sky and flooded the earth to start anew.
God condones conditional killing of other humans (Exodus 22:18, amongst others).

If this is the kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, grace, and mercy of God, I'll do without, thanks. My religion teaches unconditional love, and I'm just fine with that.

For evolutionists that were christians at one time.

Which of these you believe to be true?

There has never been a God.

I wonder sometimes, but not sure.

I lean towards it, but still not sure.

Yes there is a God.

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