This is not a personal attack...just a point

Follower of Christ

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Today at 03:28 PM Gracchus said this in Post #39

&nbsp;

The Lord is in me, and I am in the Lord. I became an empty vessel and the Lord filled me.&nbsp; I cast away all my knowlege and the Lord taught me.&nbsp; I lept into the darkness, and the Lord took me into his hand.&nbsp; I fled, even&nbsp;unto death, and the Lord gave me life.

&nbsp;

Where did you aver get the idea that the Lord wants you to bow to him?&nbsp; And why do you shout if you are not frightened?

H.L. Mencken once remarked, "God made man in His own image, and man, being a gentleman, returned the compliment." (Yes, I know, Mencken was an atheist, but some atheists are closer to the Lord than those who loudly proclaim their piety.)

&nbsp;



Truly, you have fashioned an idol in your own image: cruel, ignorant, and egotistical.&nbsp;It was the Romans who insisted that God was an emperor, requiring obeisance, and public piety.&nbsp; The Reformation didn't go far enough.&nbsp;

Protestants have been quote mining their holy book for so long, ignoring the contradictions and inconsistencies, that they&nbsp;read into it what&nbsp;is not there, and overlook what is there.&nbsp;

One of the big problems with holy books, is that they are all too often&nbsp;closed canons.&nbsp; They become dead words on paper,&nbsp;and the credulous ignore the word of the Lord all around them; and in their holy book they see only what they wish to see, because they know not the Lord, and so have no discernment.

Jonah complained to the Lord because Nineveh listened (at least in the story, which is a parable. In history, the real Nineveh never did.)&nbsp; I shall not complain because you don't.

&nbsp;


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You know, I really dont even have to try to show how unscriptural you are, you are doing fine all by yourself.

This one did strike me though.

''Where did you aver get the idea that the Lord wants you to bow to him?''


One could probably do a simple text search of the bible for ''bow'' or something similar and find quite a few passages showing that God does indeed want His people to bow to Him.

''Every knee SHALL bow and every tongue confess....''
 
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Gracchus

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Leaving out references to the bent stick for shooting arrows I found this.

Genesis 27:26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

Genesis 37:10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Genesis 41:43 And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.

Genesis 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

Exodus 11:8 And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger.

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

KJV Leviticus 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Joshua 23:7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; neither make mention of the name of their gods, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:

Judges 2:9 And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they returned, and corrupted themselves more than their fathers, in following other gods to serve them, and to bow down unto them; they ceased not from their own doings, nor from their stubborn way.

2 Kings 5:18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.

2 Kings 17:35 With whom the LORD had made a covenant, and charged them, saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them:

2 Kings 19:16 LORD, bow down thine ear, and hear: open, LORD, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent him to reproach the living God.

Job 31:9 If mine heart have been deceived by a woman, or if I have laid wait at my neighbour's door;
10 Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her.

Job 38:KJV Job 39:1 Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?
2 Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?
3 They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.

Psalm 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

KJV Psalm 31:1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.} In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.
2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.

KJV Psalm 72:1 {A Psalm for Solomon.} Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.

Psalm 78:57 But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.

KJV Psalm 86:1 {A Prayer of David.} Bow down thine ear, O LORD, hear me: for I am poor and needy.

Psalm 95:6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.

Psalm 144:5 Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.

Proverbs 5:1 My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:

Proverbs 10:19 The evil bow before the good; and the wicked at the gates of the righteous.

Proverbs 22:17 Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge.

Ecclesiastes 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,

Isaiah 10:3 And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?
4 Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Isaiah 46:1 Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth, their idols were upon the beasts, and upon the cattle: your carriages were heavy loaden; they are a burden to the weary beast.
2 They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.

Isaiah 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

Isaiah 51:23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

Isaiah 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 65:2 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Micah 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

(Nothing about bowing being a requirement, only walking.)

Habbakkuk 3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

Jesus said nothing that has been recorded in your holy book about bowing, and Paulus was a Roman.&nbsp; An interesting exercise.&nbsp;
 
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-Declare and bring near; yea, let them consult together. Who has revealed this of old; who has told it from then? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no God other than Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
(Isaiah 45:21-23 LITV)


-O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Jehovah our Maker.
(Psalms 95:6 LITV)


-but Jehovah who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a stretched out arm, you shall fear Him, and you shall bow yourselves to Him, and you shall sacrifice to Him;
(2 Kings 17:36 LITV)


With what shall I come before Jehovah, to bow myself before the loftiness of God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves, sons of a year?
(Micah 6:6 LITV)



-And Jehoshaphat bowed his nose to the earth, and all Judah and the ones living in Jerusalem fell down before Jehovah, to bow themselves to Jehovah.
(2 Chronicles 20:18 LITV)


All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn back to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations. All the fat ones of the earth have eaten, and have worshiped; all those going down to the dust shall bow before Him; and He kept not His own soul alive.
(Psalms 22:27-29 LITV)


The mountains melted like wax before the face of Jehovah, before the face of Jehovah of the whole earth. The heavens declare His righteousness and all the people see His glory. All who serve graven images are shamed, those who boast themselves in idols; all gods bow down before Him.
(Psalms 97:5-7 LITV)


I got tired of looking, sorry :)








-And he did evil in the eyes of Jehovah, as his father Manasseh did; and Amon sacrificed to all the graven images that his father Manasseh had made, and served them. And he did not bow before Jehovah, like the humbling of his father Manasseh, for Amon himself multiplied guilt.
(2 Chronicles 33:22-23 LITV)



-For you shall not bow to another god, for Jehovah whose name is Jealous, He is a jealous God;
(Exodus 34:14 LITV)
 
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Today at 06:34 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #45

-Declare and bring near; yea, let them consult together. Who has revealed this of old; who has told it from then? Is it not I, Jehovah? And there is no God other than Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
(Isaiah 45:21-23 LITV)

This is an observation of fact, and not an order.

-O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before Jehovah our Maker.
(Psalms 95:6 LITV)

This is an exhortation from the psalmist, not a requirement from the Lord.

-And Jehoshaphat bowed his nose to the earth, and all Judah and the ones living in Jerusalem fell down before Jehovah, to bow themselves to Jehovah.
(2 Chronicles 20:18 LITV)

This is narrative. It happened, it does not say the Lord required it.

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn back to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations. All the fat ones of the earth have eaten, and have worshiped; all those going down to the dust shall bow before Him; and He kept not His own soul alive.
(Psalms 22:27-29 LITV)

This is again, the psalmist.

The mountains melted like wax before the face of Jehovah, before the face of Jehovah of the whole earth. The heavens declare His righteousness and all the people see His glory. All who serve graven images are shamed, those who boast themselves in idols; all gods bow down before Him.
(Psalms 97:5-7 LITV)

Which is to say, all the idols are cast down before him.

-And he did evil in the eyes of Jehovah, as his father Manasseh did; and Amon sacrificed to all the graven images that his father Manasseh had made, and served them. And he did not bow before Jehovah, like the humbling of his father Manasseh, for Amon himself multiplied guilt.
(2 Chronicles 33:22-23 LITV)

Manasseh did bow before the Lord in his guilt, Amon did not.

-For you shall not bow to another god, for Jehovah whose name is Jealous, He is a jealous God;
(Exodus 34:14 LITV)

This does not say to bow to the Lord. It says not to bow to another god.

-but Jehovah who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a stretched out arm, you shall fear Him, and you shall bow yourselves to Him, and you shall sacrifice to Him;
(2 Kings 17:36 LITV)

KJV 2 Kings 17:34 Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the LORD, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;
35 With whom the LORD had made a covenant, and charged them, saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them:
36 But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.

Now, the word that the KJV renders as "worship" is "shachah" which does indeed imply "crouch, stoop, or bow" but this is enjoined of the Israelites. I am not Jewish. Please note that I have bowed before the Lord willingly, but he did not require it of me. I have made a separate covenant. I ask nothing of the Lord, and he does not require the impossible of me.

The following calls for special comment.

With what shall I come before Jehovah, to bow myself before the loftiness of God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves, sons of a year?
(Micah 6:6 LITV)

You left out some context.

KJV Micah 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

This says quite plainly what is required, and it does not mention sacrifice, prayer, kneeling, or falling on your face.

And then Follower said,
I got tired of looking, sorry.

You give up? You need to develop some staying power. :clap:
 
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Follower of Christ

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Today at 11:42 PM Gracchus said this in Post #46

(Isaiah 45:21-23 LITV)

This is an observation of fact, and not an order.

(Psalms 95:6 LITV)

This is an exhortation from the psalmist, not a requirement from the Lord.

(2 Chronicles 20:18 LITV)

This is narrative. It happened, it does not say the Lord required it.

(Psalms 22:27-29 LITV)

This is again, the psalmist.

(Psalms 97:5-7 LITV)

Which is to say, all the idols are cast down before him.

(2 Chronicles 33:22-23 LITV)

Manasseh did bow before the Lord in his guilt, Amon did not.

(Exodus 34:14 LITV)

This does not say to bow to the Lord. It says not to bow to another god.

(2 Kings 17:36 LITV)



Now, the word that the KJV renders as "worship" is "shachah" which does indeed imply "crouch, stoop, or bow" but this is enjoined of the Israelites. I am not Jewish. Please note that I have bowed before the Lord willingly, but he did not require it of me. I have made a separate covenant. I ask nothing of the Lord, and he does not require the impossible of me.

The following calls for special comment.

(Micah 6:6 LITV)

You left out some context.



This says quite plainly what is required, and it does not mention sacrifice, prayer, kneeling, or falling on your face.

And then Follower said,

You give up? You need to develop some staying power. :clap:
All I can say is if you can find THAT many excuses, youre problem goes much deeper than anything mere bible study can fix.
You seem to WANT to find a reason NOT to bow before Him.


''Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.''

If you can call THAT an observation and not an order, you most definetly have an athority issue that I am not equipped to deal with.




How about this, is this an observation?
Maybe its merely a request..
Or maybe I am interpreting it my way and not the ways He meant it...

For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God."



As I said, the problem is not that He doesnt say to bow, just that you will find any excuse not to (for now, anyway :) )
 
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Today at 08:59 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #47
All I can say is if you can find THAT many excuses, youre problem goes much deeper than anything mere bible study can fix.

So you are saying&nbsp;that not all answers are to be found in your holy book?&nbsp;

You seem to WANT to find a reason NOT to bow before Him.

I don't need a reason, either to bow or not to bow.&nbsp;

''Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the Word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.''

If you can call THAT an observation and not an order, you most definetly have an athority issue that I am not equipped to deal with.

It is an observation.&nbsp;You admit that you are not equipped?&nbsp; Perhaps you are not hopeless&nbsp;after all, just a little slow.

How about this, is this an observation?
Maybe its merely a request..
Or maybe I am interpreting it my way and not the ways He meant it...

For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

This is testimony that&nbsp;someone has quoted the Lord.


As I said, the problem is not that He doesnt say to bow, just that you will find any excuse not to (for now, anyway :) )&nbsp;

And you accuse me of rebelling against the authority of the Lord, (an ad hominem argument) because I do not bow to your authority, which you have presumptuously assumed to be identical with the Lord's.&nbsp;You accuse me&nbsp;even though&nbsp;you do not know me. And I need no excuse either to bow or not to bow.&nbsp;

You have not addressed the very clear statement of Micah 6:8.&nbsp;

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Deal with it, Follower. You're trying to add something that just isn't there. It is the humility that is required, not some physical action, which is meaningless anyhow,&nbsp;unless freely offered. Either my interpretation is correct, or an&nbsp;inconsistency has popped up in your inerrant scripture.&nbsp; Remember, I am neither Christian nor Jew.&nbsp;I can choose or reject as the Lord gives me discernment.&nbsp;

I bear witness:&nbsp;

You legalists and literalists&nbsp;would cast stumbling blocks in the path of&nbsp;seekers.&nbsp; You require belief&nbsp;that matches yours, and is not required by the Lord.&nbsp;Your faith is&nbsp;a painted pillar, it is all decoration, and supports nothing.&nbsp;You seek no more, and require companions in belief to assuage your fear because the&nbsp;Lord is not with you, only your idol of paper and ink.&nbsp; I am alone with the Lord and answer to&nbsp;Him.

His (X) Mark
&nbsp;

By the way, why is this thread in the "Science, Creation, and Evolution" forum?&nbsp;

Could it be that the Lord&nbsp;has sent you to me for instruction?&nbsp; No, of course not.&nbsp; You already know it all, even my heart, which is known only to the Lord.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;



&nbsp;
 
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Follower of Christ

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hmmm, ''in my Holy Book...''

I understand completely now :)

Obviously you dont, but I am really getting tired of people claiming to be ''christian'' and then denying the athority of scripture.
People think for some reason that ''christian'' is some generic religous term that includes just about anyone who believes just about anything.



And yes, I am completey, thoroughly helpless.
I have seen too much to ever turn away from THE TRUE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.
No fake gospels will ever compel me. Want to know why??
Because I know that God wants His people to BOW to Him and I have no issue in doing it. :)
Actually you've convinced me that I dont bow to Him nearly enough. So, in an ironic sort of way, thank you for teaching me that I need to bow before my King even more. :bow:

''For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in Heaven and on earth is named... ''
(Ephesians 3:14-15 LITV)

Paul (Saul) was a Roman citizen, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, if memory serves.
I fail to see in one of your earlier posts what this point was indicating.



Gracchus;
''Remember, I am neither Christian nor Jew. I can choose or reject as the Lord gives me discernment''

FOC:
then obviously we are talking my apples (God) and your non-existant Oranges (whatever your ''lord'' is)



Gracchus:
''I bear witness:
You legalists and literalists would cast stumbling blocks in the path of seekers. You require belief that matches yours, and is not required by the Lord....''



The Apostle Paul:

''I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel, which is not another, but some are troubling you, and desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ.

But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed.

For now do I persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ. And, brothers, I make known to you the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not according to man. For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it except by a revelation of Jesus Christ.

(Galatians 1:6-12 MKJV)
 
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Follower said: Obviously you don’t, but I am really getting tired of people claiming to be ''christian'' and then denying the athority of scripture.

But do you not deny the authority of Micah 6:8? And if they love justice and mercy, and accept reproof humbly, what does the label matter, are such as these not acceptable to the Lord?


People think for some reason that ''christian'' is some generic religous term that includes just about anyone who believes just about anything.

Since I deny Christianity why bring it up?

I am not a Christian because:

I do not believe Jesus is the only son of God. (All are children of God, even you.)

I do not accept that he was born of a virgin. (I don't even believe it matters.)

I do not believe in vicarious atonement. (The Lord will judge my fault and my merit, I rejoice in the justice of the Lord.)



It is my understanding, that by definition, a Christian must accept these things. Of course, Jesus wasn't a Christian either. He was a Jewish teacher and reformer, who reached out to those who had been cast out and despised by the literalists and legalists.

Follower: And yes, I am completey, thoroughly helpless."

If you would accept the Lord and walk in His way, you would be granted discernment, to know the true and the false. You are helpless because you cling to your idolatry.


Gracchus;
''Remember, I am neither Christian nor Jew. I can choose or reject as the Lord gives me discernment''

FOC:
then obviously we are talking my apples (God) and your non-existant Oranges (whatever your ''lord'' is)

There are both apples and oranges in the Lord's garden, and every manner of good fruit. Why would you claim one tree as your own? Are not all trees the Lord's?

Because I know that God wants His people to BOW to Him and I have no issue in doing it.&nbsp;
Actually you've convinced me that I dont bow to Him nearly enough. So, in an ironic sort of way, thank you for teaching me that I need to bow before my King even more.

I understand. There are tremors at the base of the dark idol in your heart, and you must bow before it to reassure yourself.

It is not bowing that the Lord requires, Follower. It is humility. Why will you not deal with what is plainly stated in your scripture?

Micah 6:7 Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

&nbsp;
 
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Today at 03:53 PM Gracchus said this in Post #50



I am not a Christian because:

I do not believe Jesus is the only son of God. (All are children of God, even you.)

I do not accept that he was born of a virgin. (I don't even believe it matters.)

I do not believe in vicarious atonement. (The Lord will judge my fault and my merit, I rejoice in the justice of the Lord.)




Well then, you stand exactly where I presumed.
If you do not believe those things, then youre are right, you are NOT a Christian.

Saying that Jesus was not christian is a moot point as the term wasnt even used until after his death.


''And finding him, he brought him to Antioch. And it happened to them a whole year they were assembled in the church. And they taught a considerable crowd. And the disciples were first called Christian in Antioch.''
(Acts 11:26 MKJV)

But He taught His disciples and they spread His words.
That teaching was the Good News (Gospel).
Those who follow THAT teaching and NO other are ''Christians.

Obviously that isnt a problem to you as you do not claim Christianity as your faith.

This really puts us on two different playing fields, so I am not sure how to proceed if at all.

I will not back down in my faith. I will not change my course.
So is there any point in continuing our conversation?
Are you going to change your views?
If not then we have a stalemate.


If any doubt the importance of the scripture, I would have you read these words.

''All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work. ''
(2 Timothy 3:16-17 MKJV)


It seems rather pointless to say one is a christian and then pretend as if the scriptures are not important when those who were inspired of God to write stated that they are.
 
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Today at 07:48 PM Follower of Christ said this in Post #52

Saying that Jesus was not christian is a moot point as the term wasnt even used until after his death.

Think of it this way. He wouldn't be able to eat dinner with you because you are not Jewish.

Follower said:
If any doubt the importance of the scripture, I would have you read these words.

''All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work. ''
(2 Timothy 3:16-17 MKJV)

Paul was a profiteer, not a prophet. Those who knew Jesus cast him out.

Follower said:
It seems rather pointless to say one is a christian and then pretend as if the scriptures are not important when those who were inspired of God to write stated that they are.

I am fascinated that you keep insisting that all scripture is inspired by God, and yet you refuse to deal with

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Lurkers, take note. Legalists, and literalists were those Jesus called "lawyers".

Matthew 11:46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.

Follower demands of others every jot and tittle of scripture, but ignores the same scripture when it offends his idolatry.

Matthew 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Follower, you are convicted by your own silence.



 
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Today at 12:50 AM Gracchus said this in Post #53



Think of it this way. He wouldn't be able to eat dinner with you because you are not Jewish.

Paul was a profiteer, not a prophet. Those who knew Jesus cast him out.



Back in the mid to late 80's I got into studying the New age Movement as it was called then.

You so much remind me of the new age ''Gurus'' I read so much about.

Taking the bits and pieces of different theologies as you see fit, not quite commiting yourself to anything. Wandering aimlessly through your meaningless existence, trying to find truth in something, yet never accepting any truth that doesnt fit your idea of what it should be.

The gospel of Jesus Christ just doesnt work that way.
Jesus wants commitment.
And if you would just take the time to read the Bible and ask GOD to help you understand, He would in no way turn you away.
He would flood you with so much truth you would not be able to contain it.


''And you shall seek and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. ''
(Jeremiah 29:13 LITV)


I have told you, I cannot change my path.
God has shown me far too much for me to ever turn my back on Him.
You think that everything I believe is based solely on words on pages?
It was and still would be, but now it is so much more.
 
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8th April 2003 at 12:23 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #13

-Is God Jehovah (Yahweh) the same god of other religions, are we all worshipping the same GOD.

Creationists/Biblical literalists are worshipping a god that they invented.

Therefore, the answer to your question "are we all worshipping the same God" is "No."
 
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8th April 2003 at 12:23 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #13

I did not say I thought you were a J.W.

If you used a J.W. for your study on the trinty, then your view is very distorted
.

I didn't state that, either.&nbsp; Once again your reading comprehension is poor and you jumped to a conclusion.&nbsp; Here is what I said:

]"I had to research Trinity in some depth during a discussion with some Jehovah's Witnesses a few years ago."

That says nothing whether I used a JW for my study, only that I researched Trinity.&nbsp;

Read what is written, not what you want to be there.&nbsp; Of course, that explains a lot about your interpretation of the Bible and why you consistently ignore Genesis 2:4b.&nbsp; You read only what you want to be there, and not what is actually there.

That does not quite fit the normal christian veiw of the triune God.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not have the orthodox Christian view of the triune God.&nbsp; They are a "resurrection" of the Arian view -- named after Bishop Arius -- in the 400s.

Another concept you don't seem to have is that, in order to refute an idea, you have to know what the idea is. Accurately.&nbsp; That means that I have to know what JW beliefs really are in order to understand how they are different from orthodox Christianity.

That doesn't mean I have to agree with them, but I do need to understand them accurately.

You would do well to realize that and research evolution so that you understand it accurately before you try to argue against it.&nbsp; It would save you embarrassment for arguing against a strawman.
 
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8th April 2003 at 12:49 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #15


Is there any reason you continue to elude the simple questions I have asked.

I realize this is not the proper forum, but there are easy questions requiring only brief answers.

How about just this one, and it only counts if you answer honestly.

-Is God Jehovah (Yahweh) the same god of other religions, are we all worshipping the same GOD.

Why don't you answer the&nbsp;questions&nbsp;I ask?&nbsp;This seems to be a one-way street for you.

So, I'll put my simple questions again.&nbsp; Please do me the courtesy of an answer:

"And I know about 1 John 5:7.
I have studied extensively the different texts
.

In that case you know what happened. Why did you pretend differently? Why did you try to pass off the verse as genuine when your study of the texts told you it was an (innocent) interpolation?&nbsp;&nbsp;You throw the word "deceiver" at me a lot.&nbsp; How is what you did not deception?"

Three simple questions.&nbsp; Answer please.
 
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8th April 2003 at 03:49 AM Gracchus said this in Post #23



Historically, Christians have always punished Christian dissenters nearly as severely as they punished Jews. In 317 C.E. Constantine published the "Edict of Toleration." In 370 C.E. first Christian "heretics" were put to death.:rolleyes:

As I remember, the point of contention was whether Jesus was of the "same substance as the Father" (homousion) or of a "similar substance to the Father". (homoiusion) I forget which side won by ferreting out and exterminating the opposition. :(

Isn't it ironic that a Jewish reformer of the Pharisaic school is taken up as a god by a heretical Jewish sect? He would turn over in his grave if he weren't dead. (Jesus was by doctrine and method a Pharisee. Paul, by doctrine and method, never was.&nbsp; Which is to say, Paul was a liar.)

(Edited for punctuation)


You are desribing the Trinity vs Arianism fight.&nbsp; Trinity is 3 personas in one ousia, to use the Greek terms.

But dissension in the Christian ranks arose much earlier than this.&nbsp; This was simply the first time Christians wielded political power (Constantine made Christianity the state religion) and was therefore able to use the police power of the state to enforce one view over others.

Yeshu ben Joseph (the human) was never at all clear as to what his exact relationship with Yahweh was.&nbsp; Which is why Christianity has had such different Christologies through its history.&nbsp; Yeshu often referred to himself as "Son of Man" but, if that phrase had a particular meaning in 30 AD, it was lost by the time the gospels were written.&nbsp; So several different Christologies vied for acceptance in the early Church.

Saul, of course, never knew the historical Yeshu.&nbsp; All his information came from the vision of the risen Jesus.&nbsp; So his Christology differed significantly from that of the Jerusalem disciples.&nbsp; Since he preached to Gentiles unfamiliar with Judaism, he used an edited version of Judaism as his backdrop to Christianity.&nbsp; Saul, as Paul, essentially invented a new religion on the fly.&nbsp; And a religion that does not always correspond to the teachings of Yeshu.

One thing that still troubles Christianity is that people forget that you can disagree with Paul and some of his specific policies -- such as the role of women in church and homosexuality -- without disagreeing with Christ or Christianity.
 
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9th April 2003 at 11:09 AM Follower of Christ said this in Post #28

You're right. We dont believe any of it.
I have already heard the ''Jesus was an essene'' thing.
Cant quite tell if thats what youre getting at, but an in depth study of those nutcases would show Jesus would not have been one of them
.

Whether Yeshu was an Essene or not is a moot point.&nbsp; The indisputable point is that several Essene doctrines are incorporated in the gospels and Christianity: Satan as a power nearly equal to God, a never-ending battle between good and evil on earth, a final battle of good vs evil.&nbsp;

I want to let any Christians know that read this previous post that these are things made up by men to cause doubt as to who Christ is, nothing more.

There has been considerable doubt as to the exact nature of Yeshu/Jesus throughout the history of Christianity.&nbsp; You have one belief, but it is not the only Christian belief.&nbsp;

Any Christians who may start questioning, do a google search to see what the ''Essenes" believed.

Yes, please do.&nbsp; You will see how much of that is present in evangelical Christianity today.
 
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9th April 2003 at 05:19 PM Freodin said this in Post #30

There were strongly opposed to the notion of a King of Rome, and the were opposed strongly to everyone who challenged Roman rule.

It was for the second reason Jesus was executed.&nbsp;

By the gospels it was the Romans who executed Yeshu. And yes, he was executed for suspicion of leading a rebellion.&nbsp; "Messiah" in those days had a definite meaning: a person that Yahweh would use to drive out all invaders.&nbsp; So when Yeshu allowed himself to be addressed as "king of the Jews" he set himself in opposition to Rome.&nbsp; It didn't help that he had two Zealots -- guerrilla fighters against Roman rule -- among his disciples.

However, the Midrashic writings about Yeshu have a very different story about how he was killed.&nbsp; In the Jewish writings Yeshu was not executed by the Romans, but by the Jews. They stoned him to death for the crime of apostasy.
 
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