Did Jesus promise to return in the 1st cent.?

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edpobre

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Today at 04:04 AM parousia70 said this in Post #160 
4th April 2003 at 04:36 AM edpobre said this in Post
ttp://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=762426#post762426">#158

Your INTERPRETATION of Rev. 22:15 is WRONG.

If we are NOW in the NEW heavens and a NEW earth, why is it that RIGHTEOUSNESS does NOT dwell in it?

Ed


Ed, as Armothe so clearly pointed out, Righteousness does indeed dwell here, now.

OK,Forget about Rev 22:15 for a sec, and explain to me why, when Isaiah is so plainly clear that upon and within the "new Heavens and earth" Sinners dwell, people die, and people procreate,(Isaiah 65:17-25) you choose to teach otherwise?

What truth do you know that Isaiah was so badly mistaken about 

P70,

Let me ask you. Is the world that we live in TODAY any better than the world BEFORE the FLOOD or the world BEFORE the DESTRUCTION of Sodom and Gomorrah or BEFORE the DESTRUCTION of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Is the world that we live in AFTER 70 AD any better or DIFFERENT from the world that existed when apostle Peter  wrote: "Nevertheless WE (Christians of apostle Peter's day), according to his promise, LOOK for NEW heavens and a new earth in which RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells" (2 Peter 3:13)?

Is the righteousness that God found in Noah, Lot, the apostles, and a FEW of God's people TODAY, the kind of  RIGHTEOUSNESS that apostle Peter talks about? 

I don't know HOW to explain what Isaiah 65:17-25 means, considering that a lot of verses have been MISTRANSLATED to firtpre-conceived doctrines. But I follow apostle Paul's method of studying the word of God - by COMPARING spiritual things with spiritual (1 Cor. 2:13).

1 Thes. 4:16-17 explains that when Jesus Christ comes again, ONLY those who are "IN" Christ (dead or alive) TOGTHER, will be caught up in the clouds to MEET Jesus in the air, and thus will ALWAYS be with the Lord.

On that day, those who are NOT "in" Christ (UNGODLY men) will be DESTROYED together with the earth and all the works that are in it (2 Peter 3,7).

Taking these events TOGETHER, the Bible teaches that ONLY those "IN" Christ (righteous and godly) will be ALIVE for the duration of 1000 years.

Rev. 20:5  teaches that the rest of the DEAD will NOT live again UNTIL the 1000 years is finished.

Hence, if Jesus CAME in 70 AD, there should NOT be ANY "ungodly" human being roaming these "new" heavens and "new" earth.

That's why apostle Peter said, "new heavens and new earth where RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells."

These verses just DON'T support the belief that Ssnners will still be around AFTER the coming of Christ.

Ed

 

 
 
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parousia70

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Today at 08:47 AM edpobre said this in Post #161



These verses just DON'T support the belief that Ssnners will still be around AFTER the coming of Christ.

Ed

 

 


So your claim is that Isaiah was wrong when he said they would be?

Ed, The Gospel, which sole purpose is to call sinners to salvation, is everlasting. (Revelation 14:6)There is no end to it's purpose. What you are preaching is an end to the gospel God ordained to be "Everlasting", to preach to sinners on earth.

The Government of Christ will increase FOREVER. (Isaiah 9:7) This can only happen if the # of souls under His Governorship increase forever.

You seem to be saying Christs government will one day "reach capacity" and that the Gospel will one day cease to be needed.

Neither of those claims are scripturally tenable.
 
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parousia70

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Today at 08:47 AM edpobre said this in Post #161


P70,

Let me ask you. Is the world that we live in TODAY any better than the world BEFORE the FLOOD or the world BEFORE the DESTRUCTION of Sodom and Gomorrah or BEFORE the DESTRUCTION of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Absolutely!

Before the operational end of the Old Covenant, no one had complete, personal access to the presnece of God except the Cheif Priests of Judiasm. And the Hebrews as a whole were the only nation/race of people who had any type of Covenant relationship with God. All the rest of Humanity was in darkness, without hope. The destruction of the temple made manifest the way to the holiest of all, Gods eternal presence for all who desired to enter into it.(Hebrews 9:8)

As one of Gentile background, I'd say for certain that I, along with the rest of humanity,  am far better off in "This world" than any world that existed prior to 70. And you are correct, MANY worlds existed  prior to AD70, Just as St. Peter testifies. Your desire to disgard this fact in your interpratation of the "New World" Peter and Isaiah prophesied does indeed cloud your interpratation. Since the many "Earth's" that Peter descried as having come and gone PRIOR to his time all came and went on the very same "Planet earth" Peter was standing on, to say that the "New earth" Peter prophesies as coming "Soon, Shortly, at hand, about to come, etc, etc... is to be interprated in polar opposite fashion to the "earths " that came and went before it, shows complete and utter disregard for scriptural precident and makes scripture speak a forign language , in direct conflict with it's intended, precidented meaning.

Ed, It would seem that you require something more from The One True Living God than the immediate, personal, literal, complete access to Him that you currently enjoy? (which you would not have enjoyed had you lived prior to AD70.)

Is the world that we live in AFTER 70 AD any better or DIFFERENT from the world that existed when apostle Peter  wrote: "Nevertheless WE (Christians of apostle Peter's day), according to his promise, LOOK for NEW heavens and a new earth in which RIGHTEOUSNESS dwells" (2 Peter 3:13)?

Yes. Peter was contrasting the "Covenant Worlds"

The OLD Covenant "Ministration of Death" vs the New Covenant "Ministration of Righteousness"

The Ministration of Righteousness was not made fully manifest while the Ministration of Death was still operational. (Hebrews 9:8, again) It's quite simple really.

Is the righteousness that God found in Noah, Lot, the apostles, and a FEW of God's people TODAY, the kind of  RIGHTEOUSNESS that apostle Peter talks about? 


Righeousness was not found in the Ministration of Death, but is in the Ministration of Righteousness. (2 Corr. 3:6-11) That is the righteousness Peter is describing.



1 Thes. 4:16-17 explains that when Jesus Christ comes again, ONLY those who are "IN" Christ (dead or alive) TOGTHER, will be caught up in the clouds to MEET Jesus in the air, and thus will ALWAYS be with the Lord.

Actually, that passage states that the Dead rise first, THEN at a LATER TIME, the Living are caught up to be together with them. Scripture does not teach a Simultainous raising of the living and dead.

On that day, those who are NOT "in" Christ (UNGODLY men) will be DESTROYED together with the earth and all the works that are in it (2 Peter 3,7).

Please define 1 "work" in your theology that will be burnt up. What does that look like exactly? At what temperature do "Works" burn?

The "Works" are the works of the Law of course. No other interpratation is consistant with the remaining text, and those works did indeed burn in 70AD with the temple that housed them.

God Bless,

P70
 
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edpobre

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Yesterday at 10:09 PM parousia70 said this in Post #164

1 Thes. 4:16-17 explains that when Jesus Christ comes again, ONLY those who are "IN" Christ (dead or alive) TOGTHER, will be caught up in the clouds to MEET Jesus in the air, and thus will ALWAYS be with the Lord. 
 

Actually, that passage states that the Dead rise first, THEN at a LATER TIME, the Living are caught up to be together with them. Scripture does not teach a Simultainous raising of the living and dead.

What YOU say and what the Bible SAYS are worlds apart P70.

YOU say: The Dead rise first. THEN at a LATER TIME, the living are caught up TO BE together with them..

The Bible SAYS: The dead "IN" Christ will RISE first (others who are dead do NOT rise YET). THEN (following the rising of the dead "IN" Christ), those who are ALIVE and "IN" Christ shall be "caught up TOGETHER with the dead "IN " Christ in the clouds to meet the Lord  in the air. And thus WE (dead "IN" Christ and alive "IN" Christ)shall always be with the Lord.

Here's 1 Thes. 4:16-17 P70.

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead "IN" Christ will rise first.

THEN we who are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH (at the SAME time)  them in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord."


Ed
 
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parousia70

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Yesterday at 08:42 PM edpobre said this in Post #165


What YOU say and what the Bible SAYS are worlds apart P70.

YOU say: The Dead rise first. THEN at a LATER TIME, the living are caught up TO BE together with them..

The Bible SAYS: The dead "IN" Christ will RISE first (others who are dead do NOT rise YET). THEN (following the rising of the dead "IN" Christ), those who are ALIVE and "IN" Christ shall be "caught up TOGETHER with the dead "IN " Christ in the clouds to meet the Lord  in the air. And thus WE (dead "IN" Christ and alive "IN" Christ)shall always be with the Lord.

Here's 1 Thes. 4:16-17 P70.

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead "IN" Christ will rise first.

THEN we who are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH (at the SAME time)  them in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord."


Ed

Sorry Ed, I just made the assumption that you would understand I was paraphrasing, and that I was speaking about those dead and alive "IN CHRIST", which I was. So that part of your argument about what I believe is false. I am in total agreement with you on that point.

However, like I said, Scripture does not teach a simultainous raising of the Living IN CHRIST, with the dead IN CHRIST. Paul goes through great pains to hammer home this distinction.

Ed, there is no way around it. Scripture teaches that the dead in Christ RISE FIRST.

THEN those alive in Christ are "Caught up".

This is not a simultainous event. To claim otherwise is absolutely unsupportable.

The question is, How long a time period does "THEN" encompass?
30 seconds? 30 minutes? 30 years? 30 centuries?

Tell me how long you think it is and show me the scripture that backs up your belief, And I'll do the same, and our readers can decide who's is more scripturally supported.

OH, BTW, Somehow I knew you'd latch on to this one statement of mine, I didn't think it would be at the expense of everything else I said.

I'm still looking forward to your biblical response to my other points.

God Bless,
P70
 
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edpobre

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Yesterday at 11:32 PM parousia70 said this in Post #166

Yesterday at 08:42 PM edpobre said this in Post ttp://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=768395#post768395">#165


What YOU say and what the Bible SAYS are worlds apart P70.

YOU say: The Dead rise first. THEN at a LATER TIME, the living are caught up TO BE together with them..

The Bible SAYS: The dead "IN" Christ will RISE first (others who are dead do NOT rise YET). THEN (following the rising of the dead "IN" Christ), those who are ALIVE and "IN" Christ shall be "caught up TOGETHER with the dead "IN " Christ in the clouds to meet the Lord  in the air. And thus WE (dead "IN" Christ and alive "IN" Christ)shall always be with the Lord.

Here's 1 Thes. 4:16-17 P70.

<I>"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead "IN" Christ will rise first.

THEN we who are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH (at the SAME time)&nbsp; them in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord."</I>

Ed

Sorry Ed, I just made the assumption that you would understand I was paraphrasing, and that I was speaking about those dead and alive "IN CHRIST", which I was. So that part of your argument about what I believe is false. I am in total agreement with you on that point.

However, like I said, Scripture does not teach a simultainous raising of the Living IN CHRIST, with the dead IN CHRIST. Paul goes through great pains to hammer home this distinction.

Ed, there is no way around it. Scripture teaches that the dead in Christ RISE FIRST.

THEN those alive in Christ are "Caught up".

This is not a simultainous event. To claim otherwise is absolutely unsupportable.


Apparently, our understanding of the word "rise" are NOT the same. The Bible says that the "dead in Christ will rise first." This means that those who are dead "in" Christ will "come to life" or "resurrect" first. The rest of the dead will NOT "rise" or will remain dead until the 1000 years are finished (Rev. 20:5).

Thus, the dead "in" Christ will resurrect first THEN those who are alive "in" Christ will be "caught up" TOGETHER with them (the resurrected dead "in" Christ) in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air...

Yes P70, there will be a simultaneous "rising" (being caught up) of those who are resurrected dead "in" Christ and those who are alive "in" Christ, to meet Jesus in the air. And that will all be done on the day of the Lord or the second coming of Christ.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Today at 02:39 AM Justme said this in Post #168

Hi,
Can I ssqueeze in here with a query?
What happens to those who die after the coming of the son of man?

Justme

Justme,

The Bible does NOT teach that people will die AFTER the coming of the Son of Man.

The Bible teaches that those who are caught up (dead and&nbsp;alive "in" Christ) to meet Jesus in the air will reign with him 1000 years (Rev. 20:6). The rest of the DEAD will not live again until the 1000 years is finished (Rev. 20:5).

That's why the Preterist belief that Jesus CAME in 70 AD is FALSE!

Ed



&nbsp;
 
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parousia70

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7th April 2003 at 08:55 PM edpobre said this in Post #167


Apparently, our understanding of the word "rise" are NOT the same. The Bible says that the "dead in Christ will rise first." This means that those who are dead "in" Christ will "come to life" or "resurrect" first. The rest of the dead will NOT "rise" or will remain dead until the 1000 years are finished (Rev. 20:5).

uhhh...ok.....So?

Thus, the dead "in" Christ will resurrect first THEN those who are alive "in" Christ will be "caught up" TOGETHER with them (the resurrected dead "in" Christ) in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air...

Yes P70, there will be a simultaneous "rising" (being caught up) of those who are resurrected dead "in" Christ and those who are alive "in" Christ, to meet Jesus in the air. And that will all be done on the day of the Lord or the second coming of Christ.

Ed

&nbsp;

Who there...you just killed your own argument.

As you said:

The dead in Christ will rise first THEN(GRK Epeita,&nbsp;which means "After that time") the living will be caught up TOGETHER with them.

Now Ed, in your theology, it appears that any catching away of the living AFTER the raising of the dead&nbsp; would somehow prevent the living from being TOGETHER with the risin dead.

Scripture simply dosen't support such.

To prove your point that your argument rests on, you'll need to show how or why, Anythime the living are caught up, be it 10 seconds after the dead or 10 million years after, they wouldn't end up TOGETHER with the risin dead.

Good luck!

Scripture teaches the Living are caught up some time AFTER the dead in Christ rise, not at the same time.

God Bless,

P70

&nbsp;




&nbsp;
 
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parousia70

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Today at 03:51 AM edpobre said this in Post #169


The Bible does NOT teach that people will die AFTER the coming of the Son of Man.

Ed&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Well, only if you remove Isaiah 65:17-21 (among others)&nbsp;from your Bible.
 
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Justme

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Hi Ed,


The Bible does NOT teach that people will die AFTER the coming of the Son of Man.

Rev.14

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." ........

Read what the rest of chapter 14 is about. After you read that go thru any excuses, rationalizations or fairy tales that you have heard to dispute or change the meaning of this part of the vision. When you're satisfied you've proved to youself that the bible doesn't say this. Read the verse again and you will see that it still clearly states "Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on.......

What type of 'ism' this supports or denies is no concern of mine.

Justme
 
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parousia70

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Today at 04:47 PM 1-peter5-9 said this in Post #173

Titus 3:9-11

"But AVOID foolish disputes, geneologies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are UNPROFITABLE and USELESS. REJECT a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned."


Isaiah 1:18a

"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord"

Pete, It is of course your right to&nbsp;reject this invitation.

1 Peter 3:15

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.

It is, of course, not an option for me to&nbsp;reject Peter's above command.

&nbsp;

God Bless

P70
 
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edpobre

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Today at 02:35 AM parousia70 said this in Post #174
1 Peter 3:15

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.

It is, of course, not an option for me to&nbsp;reject Peter's above command.

&nbsp;

God Bless

P70

&nbsp;P70, since you say that rejecting Peter's COMMAND is NOT an option fo you, let me ask you: What is the HOPE that is in you and what are your reasons for that HOPE?

Are you and apostle Peter talking of the SAME hope? What HOPE is apostle Peter talking about?

Ed
 
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edpobre

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Yesterday at 04:20 PM Justme said this in Post #172

Hi Ed,




Rev.14

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." ........

Read what the rest of chapter 14 is about. After you read that go thru any excuses, rationalizations or fairy tales that you have heard to dispute or change the meaning of this part of the vision. When you're satisfied you've proved to youself that the bible doesn't say this. Read the verse again and you will see that it still clearly states "Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on.......

What type of 'ism' this supports or denies is no concern of mine.

Justme

Justme,

Rev. 14:6-13 is about the preaching of the gospel by messengers (angels) of God. Rev. 14:13 refers to those who die "IN" Christ who&nbsp;keep the COMMANDMENTS of God and the faith of Jesus.&nbsp;

Those who are DEAD "in" Christ will come to life first when Jesus comes again (1 Thes. 4:16). Those who are ALIVE "in" Christ will JOIN them in meeting Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:17).

Those "ungodly people" who do NOT know God and do NOT obey the gospel of Christ will be burned up (2 Peter 3:7; 2 Thes. 1:8-9) during the second coming of Christ.

Ed
 
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parousia70

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Today at 02:14 PM edpobre said this in Post #175



&nbsp;P70, since you say that rejecting Peter's COMMAND is NOT an option fo you, let me ask you: What is the HOPE that is in you and what are your reasons for that HOPE?

My Hope is in Jesus Christ of course! And I am but a stranger and pilgrim on this earth, for I, like the apostles and prophets, seek not earthly things, but the better country of Heaven, eternal.

Are you and apostle Peter talking of the SAME hope? What HOPE is apostle Peter talking about?

For all of us who have placed our trust in Jesus Christ, our hope is heaven.&nbsp; Biblical hope is not finger-crossing. It is a confident expectation of good things to come.

2 Corinthians 5:1&nbsp; For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul is using "tent" here as the physical body. This is the same way that Peter uses it in:

2 Peter 1:13-14&nbsp; Yes, I think it is right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.

Ed, some day&nbsp;you and I will&nbsp;physically die, and when that happens, we will not go out of existence, and we will not go to the Lake of fire, nor will we go to Hades or Abrahams Bosom to await resurrection.

No Ed, you and I will go immediatly to heaven, clothed in our spititual resurrection bodies(1 Cor. 15:44) that God gives us upon&nbsp;physical death(1Cor. 15:36-38).&nbsp;&nbsp;

My&nbsp;hope (hope meaning: "absolute certainty about the future") is that when&nbsp;I leave this body at death,&nbsp;I will be with the Lord in Heaven in the manner stated above, and My reason for that hope lies in&nbsp;the testimony of scripture.

If&nbsp;you do not share&nbsp;in this hope with me&nbsp;Ed, What is&nbsp;your hope?&nbsp;
 
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Justme

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Hi ED,

I need not horn in here and disrupt your conversation with Par70. If you would rather discuss this with me later I would understand. Or not at all and I will still understand.

However, here is my thought if you do want to get back to me.

Those who are ALIVE "in" Christ will JOIN them in meeting Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:17).

Actually to find out who will meet with Jesus in the air later, just look at 1 Thess 4:15 . It is the 'we' who remain until the coming. That would be either Paul or some of those he was writing to. That's who 'we' are, unless Paul changes the meaning from the first 'we' he used in that sentence.

I would echo the words of Par70 in his last post and maybe just add this one more verse about hope and where this hope is.

5the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel Col.1

The fact still remains that Rev 14:13 still says thos who die from now on......

Justme
 
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edpobre

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9th April 2003 at 03:54 PM parousia70 said this in Post #170

7th April 2003 at 08:55 PM edpobre said this in Post ttp://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=770624#post770624"&gt;#167


Apparently, our understanding of the word "rise" are NOT the same. The Bible says that the "dead in Christ will rise first." This means that those who are dead "in" Christ will "come to life" or "resurrect" first. The rest of the dead will NOT "rise" or will remain dead until the 1000 years are finished (Rev. 20:5).
uhhh...ok.....So?

Do you really understand what I'msaying P70?

Thus, the dead "in" Christ will resurrect first THEN those who are alive "in" Christ will be "caught up" TOGETHER with them (the resurrected dead "in" Christ) in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air...

Yes P70, there will be a simultaneous "rising" (being caught up) of those who are resurrected dead "in" Christ and those who are alive "in" Christ, to meet Jesus in the air. And that will all be done on the day of the Lord or the second coming of Christ.

Ed


Who there...you just killed your own argument.

As you said:

The dead in Christ will rise first THEN(GRK Epeita,&nbsp;which means "After that time") the living will be caught up TOGETHER with them.

Now Ed, in your theology, it appears that any catching away of the living AFTER the raising of the dead&nbsp; would somehow prevent the living from being TOGETHER with the risin dead.

Scripture simply dosen't support such.

To prove your point that your argument rests on, you'll need to show how or why, Anythime the living are caught up, be it 10 seconds after the dead or 10 million years after, they wouldn't end up TOGETHER with the risin dead.

Good luck!

P70,

It looks like you are right ..IF...&nbsp;you MISREPRESENT what I posted and TRUNCATE 1 Thes. 4:17 to read like this: "The dead in Christ will rise first THEN(GRK Epeita,&nbsp;which means "After that time") the living will be caught up TOGETHER with them."&nbsp;

But this was what I posted P70:&nbsp;
Thus, the dead "in" Christ will resurrect first THEN those who are alive "in" Christ will be "caught up" TOGETHER with them to MEET Jesus in the air.
&nbsp;

Scripture teaches the Living are caught up some time AFTER the dead in Christ rise, not at the same time.

God Bless,

P70

Apparently, you don't understand what I posted. "Rise" means RESURRECT or&nbsp;"come to life" or "live again." And "caught up" means "meeting Jesus in the air."

The dead "in" Christ who will ressurect&nbsp;at the second coming of Christ, AHEAD of the ungodly, will "MEET Jesus in the air" TOGETHER with those who are alive "in" Christ.

That's what 1 Thes. 4:16-17 LITERALLY means.

Ed
 
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edpobre

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11th April 2003 at 04:29 AM Justme said this in Post #178

Hi ED,

I need not horn in here and disrupt your conversation with Par70. If you would rather discuss this with me later I would understand. Or not at all and I will still understand.

However, here is my thought if you do want to get back to me.

Actually to find out who will meet with Jesus in the air later, just look at 1 Thess 4:15 . It is the 'we' who remain until the coming. That would be either Paul or some of those he was writing to. That's who 'we' are, unless Paul changes the meaning from the first 'we' he used in that sentence.


Justme,

I don't believe the word "we" refers only to Paul or some of those he was writing to. If Jesus CAME in 70 AD and the verse refers ONLY to Paul and the early Christians, what about people of today. How will we meet Jesus in the air? What are we hoping for if Jesus HAD come already?

And think about it Justme, if this verse refers ONLY to Paul and the other Christians he was writing to, then the rest of the New Testament was NEVER intended for people who were born AFTER 70 AD, right?

Ed
 
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