Jesus is the SON not the Father.

edpobre · Apr 10, 2003

7th April 2003 at 04:53 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #276

Being the Son of God does NOT make Jesus God the Son.

Click to expand...

Why not?  Where is that written? 

Eve, why should "Son of God" MAKE Jesus "God the Son?" Where is that written?

Father gave Jesus all authority, as King, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign.  No one comes to Father but by Him. Jesus came to earth not to be served, but to serve.  Because He CHOSE that position, as servant, to do the work His Father and ours gave Him to do, to save the world, does that take away His divinity?

Click to expand...

NOTHING is taken away Eve because Jesus was NEVER God in the first place.  The FACT that the Father GAVE Jesus ALL authority, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign PROVES that Jesus was NEVER equal to God the Father.

And the FACT that God the Father SENT Jesus to REDEEM the world is another PROOF that Jesus is NOT God.

Eve, LISTEN to what Jesus SAID about himself: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH that I HEARD from God. Abraham did not do this" (John 8:40).

Jesus SAID he is a MAN who HEARD the TRUTH from God. Tell me Eve, if Jesus were God, why did he say that? If he is God himself, why did he have to HEAR the TRUTH from another God? Wasn't he an all-knowing God?

God made Himself lower than the angels, in His Son, that the Son would be exalted in due time.  That time is come. His power to forgive, by Himself, and to give life was never removed even when He made Himself lowly, for our sakes.  The bible sais that in Him ALL the fullness of the Godhead dwells, bodily.  Godhead=deity, having divine nature.  He was man, and He IS God.

Click to expand...

Jesus did NOT come of himself nor on his own authority. God the Father SENT him. Jesus proceeded forth and CAME from God (John 8:42). Now tell me Eve, if Jesus were God, why did he NOT come  on his own authority?

Thus, it was NOT God who BECAME Jesus. Just as John the Baptist was SENT from God (John 1:6), Jesus was likewise SENT from God.

In all our years Jesus has never asked me, "Who is the only true God" because I understand His authority, His divinity, His position within that Godhead.

Click to expand...

Of course, Jesus CANNOT talk to you directly Eve because he is NOW in heaven. That was a hypothetical question Eve. I know you tell me that you undertand his authority, his divinity, his position within that "Godhead," but let me ask you again Eve, if Jesus were to come today and ask you, "Who is the ONLY true God? what would your answer be?

I cannot, nor ever could, approach the throne of grace or Father without going through Jesus, they are One.  They are both seated in heaven, side by side and there is no other Way to Father than through the Son.  Holy Spirit unites us and is also ever present.  Jesus isnt a separate or lessor God that i pass up on my way to the true God. I pray in His, Jesus name, that what i petition WILL be done. Everything, and everyone, goes THROUGH Him. He is just as much God as Father is. They are inseparable.  They, are God.

Let US make man in OUR image.

Click to expand...

So how man Gods do you have Eve? You say that the Father and Jesus are BOTH seated side by side in heaven. If the Father is God and Jesus who is at his side is God, aren't there TWO Gods Eve?

Ed

edpobre · Apr 10, 2003

Yesterday at 06:18 PM watcher215 said this in Post #279

I pray this won't be pearls before swine.

While meditating on philippians 2 an interesting thing occured to me.

ONLY GOD COULD TAKE THE FORM OF A SERVANT!

Why? Everything in all creation serves God, therefore everything is already by nature in forms of a servants...to God.

Again, ONLY GOD COULD TAKE THE FORM OF A SERVANT, because He ALONE is the Self Existent Eternal God. I AM!

If Jesus is not God how can it be said he took on the form of a servant? Wasn't he ALWAYS a servant?

1 Sing to the LORD a new song, for he has done marvelous things; his right hand and his holy arm have worked salvation for him.
Psalms 98:1 (NIV)

16 He saw that there was no one, he was appalled that there was no one to intervene; so his own arm worked salvation for him, and his own righteousness sustained him.

Isaiah 59:16 (NIV)

I looked, but there was no one to help, I was appalled that no one gave support; so my own arm worked salvation for me, and my own wrath sustained me.

Isaiah 63:5 (NIV)

Watcher215,

Relative to ordinary MAN or normal people, Jesus was the ANOINTED Messiah. John the Baptist even acknowledged that Jesus is MIGHTIER than he (Matt. 3:11).  God PERFORMED miracles, wonders and signs THROUGH Jesus (Acts 2:22). God the Father COMMITTED all judgment to Jesus (John 5:22). God EXALTED Jesus at his right hand to be Prince and Savior and to give repentance to Israel and FORGIVENESS of sins (Acts 5:31). And Jesus HAD the POWER on earth to FORGIVE sins (Mark 2:10).

Despite all these, Jesus "took the form of a servant" and WASHED his apostles' feet (John 13:5).

See my friend, Jesus does NOT have to be God to take the form of a servant. A powerful MAN can also take the form of a servant by doing what Jesus DID to his disciples.

Ed

EveOfGrace · Apr 10, 2003

Eve, why should "Son of God" MAKE Jesus "God the Son?" Where is that written?

It isnt written ed, no more than your original statement, of which i was commenting, is written. So to come out and say: "Being the Son of God does NOT  make Jesus God the Son" is something out of your own mind.  I didnt say that being the Son MAKES Him God, i merely questioned your statement. Since neither statement is written as fact, neither of us can base Jesus' deity on those statements.  That is what i was getting at.

The FACT that the Father GAVE Jesus ALL authority, as judge, as Lord and has exalted Him to recieve glory, to rule and reign PROVES that Jesus was NEVER equal to God the Father.

  The Father gave Jesus that status only AFTER His work here was finished.  Jesus left glory, the glory which He had TOGETHER with Father, and came to earth to save all men. While here, in flesh, Jesus was lower than His Father, flesh does that Ed.  Its stationary.  It tempts the soul.  It lowers us. When Jesus returned to glory, it is THEN that He was exalted and made eternal Judge.  So what it PROVES, is that Jesus indeed came FROM heaven, and completed the atoning work only God could do.  To say Jesus was NEVER equal because of His temporary earthly position is false.

 

And the FACT that God the Father SENT Jesus to REDEEM the world is another PROOF that Jesus is NOT God.

How does sending Jesus ANYWHERE prove that?  Where was He sent FROM?  Not a man, but from heaven.  What was He in heaven?  A plant?  An angel?  I think not.  The bible sais the Word was with God and WAS God and nothing was made without Him. The Word became flesh, Jesus.  That Word, Jesus, was God from the beginning.  Gee Ed, if i send you to the store for bread, do you not remain Ed?  Even if you change your clothes and get in a car, still Ed.  You might have to take a cell phone since your not at home anymore, but nope, still Ed.   

      

Jesus SAID he is a MAN who HEARD the TRUTH from God. Tell me Eve, if Jesus were God, why did he say that? If he is God himself, why did he have to HEAR the TRUTH from another God? Wasn't he an all-knowing God?

  If Jesus were God, why say that?  Jesus wasnt only God when He said it, remember? He was Jesus, God in FLESH. He wasnt in a burning bush or a cloud, but a body, like them.  The Jews sought to kill Him for the very words(blasphemy they thought) that He was speaking. In verses 13-30 Jesus gives witness of HIMSELF. Standing there in that body of flesh, talking to Jews also standing there, He made a statement to let them know from WHERE His words come. "If He is God Himself, why did he have to hear the truth from another God?"  He didnt. He IS the truth. The Jews He was speaking to is who needed to hear. Of course He is all-knowing, THAT is what He was telling them and that is why they sought to KILL HIM.  Isnt it blasphemy that He was crucified FOR?  Even the people standing there watching Him die knew, for they told Him to 'save Yourself'.  

 

Jesus did NOT come of himself nor on his own authority. God the Father SENT him. Jesus proceeded forth and CAME from God (John 8:42). Now tell me Eve, if Jesus were God, why did he NOT come on his own authority?

Jesus was sent, but He didnt come kicking and screaming.  He CAME, to serve man, as the ultimate servant, a sacrifice and thereby glorify God on EARTH.  He NEVER honored Himself, but the WILL of God, from which He indeed proceeded forth. When God spoke, in the beginning, it is the Word that 'went forth' to create, to become whatever was WILLed . Should He go against that very will, His purpose, and walk as other men before Him?  We would do well to follow His example. Honoring 'self' is what got Lucifer booted.  Hm, isnt that what the Jews accused Jesus of?  Either He DID have a demon and was lying, or He WAS God.

  

Just as John the Baptist was SENT from God (John 1:6), Jesus was likewise SENT from God.

  Johns own words: He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. (john 3:31).  John himself tells us that Jesus is the Christ, sent from heaven.  John had an earthly father, Zacharias,  and was sent from God to be a witness to the Light, of which John is NOT that Light.(John 1:6-8) Jesus words: You are from beneath; I am from above.  You are of this world; I am not of this world. (John 8:23) There is no 'likewise' about it.

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."(Matt.1:23)

 

 

Of course, Jesus CANNOT talk to you directly Eve because he is NOW in heaven. That was a hypothetical question Eve. I know you tell me that you undertand his authority, his divinity, his position within that "Godhead," but let me ask you again Eve, if Jesus were to come today and ask you, "Who is the ONLY true God? what would your answer be?

God abides in me Ed.  I CAN talk directly to Him, and He with me.  The kingdom is not flesh and blood, but Spirit.  I dont just spew words into the air and hope they reach heaven.  I dont even have to speak.  I can hear, and God can hear without speaking any words aloud. We speak to each other, directly.  I dont need a priest, or any other person to communicate to God, THEY are within me.  My answer would be: Jesus, You and Father and Holy Spirit are my ONLY true God.  

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself;

  

So how man Gods do you have Eve? You say that the Father and Jesus are BOTH seated side by side in heaven. If the Father is God and Jesus who is at his side is God, aren't there TWO Gods Eve?

  If you percieve God to be an object, an item, a thing, or any other single entity, then i am grieved by that.  God, is Spirit and has more than a single manifestation of purpose within the Spirit.  God is not an 'it' Ed, God is an US. A very personal 'being' that supercedes our finite boxes.  God isnt a  single 'thing', God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the CREATOR of 'things'.

EveOfGrace

 

 

ThrdJohn13 · Jul 2, 2003

Ed, I have a question for you. Who is the individual seated on the throne in Revelation?

OldShepherd · Jul 2, 2003

ThrdJohn13 said:
Ed, I have a question for you. Who is the individual seated on the throne in Revelation?

Ed is no longer a member of this forum, but if you like please post your discussion of that point.

Phoenix · Jul 2, 2003

Ed is no longer a member of this forum

MikeMcK · Oct 13, 2003

twhite982 · Oct 13, 2003

MikeMcK said:
bump

Is Jesus still the Son and not the Father?

TW

MikeMcK · Oct 13, 2003

Der Alte · Oct 14, 2003

twhite982 said:
Is Jesus still the Son and not the Father?

TW

Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is, ever was, or ever will be the Father. But, Jesus is God. The Father is God, but is not, never was, nor ever will be the Son.

True Believer · Oct 17, 2003

Der Alter said:
Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus is, ever was, or ever will be the Father. But, Jesus is God. The Father is God, but is not, never was, nor ever will be the Son.

I believe this is a blanket statement and not true, There are differing veiws among Trinitarians.
Some say it is a godhead made up of three seperate beings some say it is one being with 3 personalities and some claim god to be one person who can divide himself into infinite seperate beings that can do and be anywhere all at the same time.I belive there are more interpretations but I have run into these.

jessedance · Oct 19, 2003

hummm; So Jesus should have said, 'I am God, My father is God,and there is only one God, but I am not my Father.' thats like some one named Albert Speer saying, 'I am Ablert Speer, My father is Albert speer , and there is only one Albert Speer, but I am not my father.' or Like someone named Sussie glutz saying, ' I am Sussie Glutz, My mother is Sussie Glutz, and there is only one Sussie Glutz, but I am not my mother.' or, It's like someone named Mark Dobbs saying, " I am the head of the household, My dad is the head of the household, and there is only one head of the house hold, but I am not my Dad.' or LIke someone saying, ' I am the head of Gmc, My dad is the head of GMC , there is only one head of GMC , but I am not my Dad.' or it is like someone saying, ' I am the president of the USA, my dad is the president of the USA, and there is only one president of the USA, but I am not my dad.' How anyone could buy into this kind of logic is beyond me.

True Believer · Oct 19, 2003

Where did JESUS say I am GOD?
all I have seen is inuendo and supposition.People claiming he infered it .The Fact is Jesus never said it !!!!!!!!!!

Der Alte · Oct 19, 2003

True Believer said:
I believe this is a blanket statement and not true, There are differing veiws among Trinitarians

Some say it is a godhead made up of three seperate beings some say it is one being with 3 personalities and some claim god to be one person who can divide himself into infinite seperate beings that can do and be anywhere all at the same time.I belive there are more interpretations but I have run into these.

What you "believe" about Trinitarians, is no more accurate than someone telling you what you believe. Now, if you could back this nonsense up that would be a different story. And I don't mean the teachings of some David Koresh or Jim Jones wannabe. I mean the official writings of any recognized denomination.

Der Alte · Oct 19, 2003

True Believer said:
Where did JESUS say I am GOD?
all I have seen is inuendo and supposition.People claiming he infered it .The Fact is Jesus never said it !!!!!!!!!!

And even if He had nobody would have believed Him. They tried to stone Him just for saying He was the Son of God.

“N O W H E R E does Jesus say "I am God, worship me."

Suppose a man does indeed come up to you and does says, "I am God, worship me."

Would you believe him? Would you worship him?

The immediate reaction of any decent monotheistic believer would be to call the person making such a claim an impostor and a blasphemer. If that is your reaction too, then why would you demand something from Jesus which you aren't going to accept anyway? Most would declare insane anybody who would make such a statement. Jesus knows about this natural reaction as well as anybody else and saw no reason to make his claims in such a foolish way. But he did make the claim in indirect ways and those are just as clear.

Maybe you are cautious and open and don't want to completely dismiss such a claim ... after all, saying that God is not able to come and appear in the form of a man does restrict his power, and you believe in an all powerful God, ... but you would at least demand conclusive proof for such a claim, wouldn't you? After all, if you do worship somebody who is not God you are guilty of idolatry. But refusing to worship God when he demands so, is just as great a sin.

What matters in the end is not the existence of this literal statement, but whether there is clear evidence that he is indeed God, no matter in which form he issued the claim. If there is clear proof for his divine identity, then you have to worship Him even if the wording of his commands is not precisely the way you may think they should be. We cannot prescribe for God how he has to reveal himself before we accept it.

For example, in the Gospel according to John, (speaking of eternal life) Jesus says, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies." (John 11:25). He makes the offer of eternal life conditional on faith in his own person. This would be blasphemous for anybody other than God. This is an incredible claim. Does he give any evidence for his authority to make such claims? The record gives many details of what happened at this particular day, but at the end we read, "When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, `Lazarus, come out!' The dead mean came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, `Take off the grave clothes and let him go.'" (John 11:43-44).

When you read the Gospels carefully you will find that consistently,

Jesus talks like he is God,
Jesus acts like he is God,
Jesus gives evidence for claiming this authority rightfully by performing miraculous signs.

After 3 years with his disciples we read how one of them asks Jesus and wants to be "shown the Father (God)".

Jesus answered, "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. ... Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves." (John 14:10-11).

Jesus expected the disciples and the people around him to recognize his true nature and identity from his words which are only appropriate for God to speak and from his deeds.
Jesus does give enough proof and then lets you draw your own conclusions. Everybody could make the claim to be God. And many have made claims to be (a) god throughout history. Only the true God can give true evidence for it and if you have the evidence there is no need for the explicit command to worship anymore. The statement "I am God" adds nothing of substance to the question regarding his identity. His real identity is established by the proof he gives, not by claims each and everybody can make. After he has given the evidence, there is no more need for the statement. Those who are open for the truth will recognize the evidence, those who ignore the evidence won't be convinced either if he adds this specific statement you seem to demand from him. And if you have recognized his true identity, worshiping him is only proper and will nearly be an "automatic" response.

I know this is an incredible thought, it is unbelievable. That is why it took even the disciples themselves such a long time to really understand it. They have really only
started to comprehended the meaning of it all after Jesus' own death and resurrection, after they meet the risen Lord.

In the Gospel according to John, end of chapter 20, and the Gospel according to Matthew, end of chapter 28, we read how Jesus receives worship and affirms this. Even though he never demands the worship, he accepts it and confirms it as proper.

You claim:

"N O W H E R E Jesus says "I am God, worship me."

and understand this as

"NO where Jesus says 'I am God, worship me.'"

and you are right when taking it the literalistic way. He never says these very words. But he makes his claims very clear in many other ways. Open your eyes and you will see that the right way to read this statement is

Now HERE Jesus says "I am God ..."

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Q-A-panel/nowhere.html

Der Alte · Oct 19, 2003

jessedance said:
hummm; So Jesus should have said, 'I am God, My father is God,and there is only one God, but I am not my Father.' thats like some one named Albert Speer saying, 'I am Ablert Speer, My father is Albert speer , and there is only one Albert Speer, but I am not my father.' or Like someone named Sussie glutz saying, ' I am Sussie Glutz, My mother is Sussie Glutz, and there is only one Sussie Glutz, but I am not my mother.' or, It's like someone named Mark Dobbs saying, " I am the head of the household, My dad is the head of the household, and there is only one head of the house hold, but I am not my Dad.' or LIke someone saying, ' I am the head of Gmc, My dad is the head of GMC , there is only one head of GMC , but I am not my Dad.' or it is like someone saying, ' I am the president of the USA, my dad is the president of the USA, and there is only one president of the USA, but I am not my dad.' How anyone could buy into this kind of logic is beyond me.

Now you see, that is the problem, you talk like you think God is nothing but a man restricted and constrained by all the limitations of finite man.

God is NOT Albert Speer, Sussie Glutz, Mark Dobbs, the head of GMC, the President or any other silly, irrelevant, illustration you concoct. God's thoughts are higher than your thoughts, and His ways are higher than your ways. God can do whatever He wants to do, whenever He wants to do it, any way He wants to do it. Logic, reason, physics, common sense, etc., do NOT restrict God in any way.

If walking on water was normal for mere human beings, everybody would be doing it but so far only one has ever done that. If rising from the dead after three days was normal, everybody would do it but everybody doesn't do it. So where is the logic and reason in that?

You have made a god in your own image, that can only do or be whatever you can do or be. How anyone can buy into the irrational, logic that God CANNOT do NOR be, any more than an ordinary man, is beyond me.

Marvel · Oct 19, 2003

From my knowledge, Jesus is a part of God, and also the son. Three beings make up God: The Holy Spirit, the Father, and Jesus Christ.

gort · Oct 19, 2003

jessedance · Oct 20, 2003

true believer; good point. if jesus were God he certainly would have made it plain and simple just like god made it palin and simple when he said ' I am the Lord yourgod" . If jesus were god he would not leave us geussing on the issue.
But, the problem is many people look at the scripture through what I call tri-focal lenses. they see trinity in every verse and don't let scripture interpret scripture.

Der Alte · Oct 20, 2003

jessedance said:
true believer; good point. if jesus were God he certainly would have made it plain and simple just like god made it palin and simple when he said ' I am the Lord yourgod" . If jesus were god he would not leave us geussing on the issue.
But, the problem is many people look at the scripture through what I call tri-focal lenses. they see trinity in every verse and don't let scripture interpret scripture.

Ignoring posts which disagree with you does not change the facts. The Jewish religious leaders tried to stone Jesus, on more than one occasion, when He only claimed to be the Son of God. Do you think He would have been believed and not stoned if he had openly proclaimed that He was God?

1 Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The oldest most reliable manuscripts have "only begotten God" in Jn 1:18. Some versions have "only begotten son"

Actually you are the one that is not letting scripture interpret scripture, look at how many times you say, "I think, I believe, I guess." If scripture is interpreting scripture why do you have to guess? And OBTW I don't see a lot of answers to my posts. Let's get some scripture out there and respond to me, if you can.

Jesus is the SON not the Father.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Zaqunraah

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Active Member

pedantric

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Similar threads