Can Christians lose there salvation?

Ben johnson · Apr 9, 2003

In your view are they still Christians, or were they never Christians, in spite of all the years they DID follow Christ? Just curious...

All three facets of "OSAS" share the belief that "If they aren't saved NOW, then they were never REALLY-TRULY saved in the FIRST place."

Man's righteousness is as filthy rags before and after salvation. Man can't do anything to earn salvation...

This is true. WELL, the part about "before salvation" is true; after salvation, we are the righteousness of God (2Cor5:21); righteousness comes by faith in Christ to ALL WHO BELIEVE (Rm3:22)...

(1Jn3 says that children of God are known by their righteousness, children of the devil are known by their unrighteousness; if righteousness is not part of salvation, then what is salvation???)

and (man) can't do anything to maintain salvation...

Are you sure of that??? What do you make of these verses:

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:8

Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will save yourself and those who hear you. 1Tim4:16

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

"Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. But encourage one another, while it is still called "today", lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

"Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9 (See 1Jn5:12-13)

"KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

"For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" Heb2:1-3

"But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

"Although you were formerly alienated and hostile, doing evil deeds, yet now He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach---if indeed you continue firmly established and steadfast and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel" Col1:22-23
(The HOPE of the Gospel, is JESUS---1Tim1:1---"be not moved away from JESUS!")

Which of these verses harmonizes with the idea that "we do NOT have a part in mainaining our salvation"? Which one?

God is pure and never lies. God does not promise, give, and take away. Assurance in the heart of a growing Christian is a joy in absolute knowledge of salvation. Any doubt would not be on the part of God. Good works and love of God grow from the grateful heart of a believer. The Christian grows with strength and assurance with the study of God's Holy Word.

Your statement is true; God is eternally faithful, will never forsake us, will never revoke our salvation.

...and yet, the key in your statement, is "BELIEVER"; if salvation is by belief, if belief comes from one's own heart (Rm10:10,17), if it is BELIEF that RECEIVES Christ (jn1:12), then what if belief ends? What if we are taken captive again by worldly things and disbelieve (see 2Pet2:20-22)?

Salvation is not a process...

It is indeed not a process; "He who HAS the Son, HAS THE LIFE; I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life!"

it's not about you...

It may not "depend on the man who runs or wills but on God who has mercy" (Rm9:16), it may be "not born of blood nor of the flesh nor of the will of men but of God" (Jn1:13), but do you really say "it's not about ME"? Did I not choose to RECEIVE Him (Jn1:12, 10:9)? Do I not choose to abide (remain) in Him? Jn15:4,6,7.

I'd wish they stop building doctrines on hypothetical examples of people that don't exist or whom they don't know all about (ie do you know the person's heart and what he believes till the time he breathes his last breath?).

Place a post on this message board, outside of the CO forums --- asking to hear from those who WERE saved, but are no longer; you will receive several replies...;

Let's stick to clear-cut easy to entreat scriptures.

But we can't do that. I post verse after verse after verse and they are just ignored. Page back and review my posts. Or comment on some verses in THIS post (the blue ones for instance)...

God paid such a high price -- His own Son -- for our salvation, and He made it so simple for us to be saved -- just believe! and receive! -- only to have us turn the greatest miracle of God into something so flimsy and shaky -- something that it the end, can be lost just by what we do or dont do. Whoa! For all that 'trouble' God forgot that it cld all be lost just by man's actions?

I don't think anyone really believes it's ACTIONS; we all believe it's HEART. If the heart disbelieves and grieves the Holy Spirit, then an unbelieving heart is not saved. As it says in James 5:19-20. Do you really think James wasn't speaking to TRUE BElIEVERS? Or will you say that "THANATOS" doesn't mean death-&-Hell? What about Pet2:20-22? There are THREE GROUPS in 2Pet2 --- false prophets, false teachers, and ONTOS-APOPHEUGO-TRULY-SAVED. The truly saved are described word-for-word as those "of the same faith as Peter" in 2Pet1:1-4. There is no way to deny they WERE REALLY SAVED, and there is no way to deny "they were again entangled in the defilements of the world and overcome; their second state is worse than their first; far better to have never KNOWN-epinginosko the way of righteousness, than after KNOWING it, to have EPISTREPHO-EK-TURNED-AWAY from the holy commandment." I don't see any way to deny these believers fell-from-salvation...

Outspoken · Apr 10, 2003

good lord ben, let it lie, people disagree with you and there is bibilical evidience for it. We have been over the same verses over and over again.

Ben johnson · Apr 10, 2003

That's just it, Outspoken; I have yet to see that evidence. What about the verses? If someone asserts something that contradicts Scripture, are we to remain quiet?

And this subject is the ESSENCE of salvation; how can we spread the Gospel, if we disagree on the essence of salvation? In the Christian outlook, is there anything that matters MORE?

How are we saved? Is salvation by faith, or is faith by salvation? Does God install salvation (instilling faith in us, apart from us), or is belief our choice? If it is our choice, then do we have any responsibility DURING that saved-life?

Of all the discussions on the board, what is more important?

SoccerAaron · Apr 10, 2003

Can they? Yes.
If you are truly saved, will you? No.

Perseverance of the Saints

Psalms 34:7
7 The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and rescues them.

Isaiah 43:1-3
1 But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, "Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2 "When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, nor will the flame burn you.
3 "For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place."

Isaiah 54:10
10 "For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, but My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, and My covenant of peace will not be shaken," says the LORD who has compassion on you.

Jeremiah 32:40
40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Matthew 18:12-14
12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine, on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
13 "If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine, which have not gone astray.
14 "So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."

Matthew 24:24
24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."

John 3:16, 36
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life...
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 4:14
14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:51
51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 17:11-12, 15
11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Romans 5:8-10
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 8:1
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:28-39
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written, "For your sake we are being put to death all day we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels , nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 14:4
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 4:8-9, 14
8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing;
9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed...
14 knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you.

2 Corinthians 9:8
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation --having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:3-4
3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

2 Thessalonians 3:3
3 But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

2 Timothy 2:19
19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

2 Timothy 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

1 John 5:11
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Jude 1:1, 24-25
1 Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Outspoken · Apr 11, 2003

"I have yet to see that evidence."

Then youhaven't been reading along in the last 30 or so pages.

scott · Apr 11, 2003

One thing I've noticed is that virtually all people who believe you can lose your salvation, believe you can get saved again. Hebrews would make that impossible. If God is omniscient, would He give His Spirit, take it back, give it, take it back, give it, take it back. Is salvation a roulette game, depending where the ball happens to be when you die.
Scott

Ben johnson · Apr 12, 2003

Then youhaven't been reading along in the last 30 or so pages.

Heh heh heh! I could say the same thing!

One thing I've noticed is that virtually all people who believe you can lose your salvation, believe you can get saved again.

Here is exactly why the subject is important; what is salvation? Is it something that God imposes? then of course you cannot become unsaved --- it would be GOD'S choice, not ours.

But if salvation is by BELIEF, and if that belief comes from US OURSELVES, then of COURSE one can disbelieve and then return to belief.

Ever hear of the Prodigal Son? (Jn15)

ORRR, as Paul said: "They were broken off for their unbelief; ....and if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief, God will graft them in again... Rom 11

Hebrews would make that impossible.

You mean Heb6:4-6? Read that in the GREEK. "It is impossible ('adunatos' unable, powerless) to restore them to repentance WHILE they fall away." "Parapipto" is written in "aorist" form; NASV asserts "while" in the FOOTNOTE...

SoccerAaron · Apr 12, 2003

If you believe salvation is by BELIEF, and if that belief comes from US OURSELVES. Then no one would be saved. Romans 3:10-12

Ben johnson · Apr 12, 2003

Rom3 is not theological dictate --- it is exageration. OR, more to the point, it is a lamentation. And Paul is merely quoting Psalm 14 & 53 --- which is ALSO lamentation. Ever read Jer29:12-14? Do you think Paul really believed that no one EVER seeks God? (Hint ---Paul was learned; he certainly KNEW Jer29:12-14...)

Please read Rom10 and tell me where saving belief comes from --- us, or God?

"For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesss, resulting in salvation...

Faith (unto salvation) comes from hearing the Word..."

Does faith/belief unto salvation come from GOD, or from one's heart after hearing? (See Eph1:13)

Salvation is belief --- the belief that recieves Christ (Jn1:12, Rom5:17)...

nChrist · Apr 12, 2003

Today at 05:02 AM Ben johnson said this in Post #307
ORRR, as Paul said: "They were broken off for their unbelief; ....and if they do not CONTINUE in their unbelief, God will graft them in again... Rom 11

Paul is not speaking about believers here in Romans 11, rather of Jews who rejected the Gospel of God's Grace. Romans 11 has nothing to do with OSAS or OSNAS. Reading this chapter makes this exceptionally clear. The Jews rejected Christ and they continued to live under the law. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ ended the law, but the Jews didn't accept or believe this. 

nChrist · Apr 12, 2003

Today at 05:02 AM Ben johnson said this in Post #307

You mean Heb6:4-6? Read that in the GREEK. "It is impossible ('adunatos' unable, powerless) to restore them to repentance WHILE they fall away." "Parapipto" is written in "aorist" form; NASV asserts "while" in the FOOTNOTE...

Hebrews 6:4-6 does not refer to believers. Believers in this chapter are not referred to until verse 9. Hebrews 6:4-6 refers to hypocrites, those who put on a show, those who may have "tasted" of salvation but not received it. Hebrews 6:4-6 refers to an external reformation and an external show, not an internal Salvation. Reading the entire chapter makes this completely clear, regardless of what language is used.

nChrist · Apr 12, 2003

9th April 2003 at 10:57 PM Ben johnson said this in Post #301

"You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." 2Peter3:17-18

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

A fall from "Stedfastness" is not loss of Salvation. A fall from stedfastness is nothing but a loss of confidence. The teaching of OSNAS would be such a loss of confidence. The contrast is made between weakening in Grace and confidence in verse 17 to strengthening in Grace and confidence in verse 18. Salvation is present in both verses.

nChrist · Apr 13, 2003

9th April 2003 at 10:57 PM Ben johnson said this in Post #301

"Watch yourselves that you not lose what you have accomplished, but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ HAS NOT GOD." 2Jn1:8-9 

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

The subject of 2 John 1:8 is rewards for the good works of a believer, not Salvation. The loss spoken of is not a loss of Salvation, rather of rewards.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The subject of 2 John 1:9 is a contrast between the saved and the unsaved. The first portion of the verse regards the unsaved, and the second portion regards the saved.

The gist of 2 John 1:8-9 is John writing to a lady and her children. There is an exhortation to stay pure to the Gospel so that subsequent works may lead to rewards. If the good works are not pure to the Gospel, the reward may not be full. There is nothing in either of these verses about loss of Salvation. 

nChrist · Apr 13, 2003

9th April 2003 at 10:57 PM Ben johnson said this in Post #301

"KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ TO ETERNAL LIFE". Jude21

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Jude 1:21 has nothing to do with OSAS or OSNAS. We already know that nothing can separate us from the love of God. This is an exhortation to concentrate on the love of God, meditate on the love of God, keep the love of God constantly in view, etc. "Keep Looking UP": it's just this simple. Christians are comforted in their trials by the love of God and the sure knowledge of eternal life in and with Jesus Christ. This verse deals with the comfort and love of God, not the loss of Salvation.

 

nChrist · Apr 13, 2003

9th April 2003 at 10:57 PM Ben johnson said this in Post #301

"For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what things have been heard (faith comes from hearing), lest we drift away from it. ...how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" Heb2:1-3

 

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 
 
These verses have nothing at all to do with Once Saved, Always Saved or Once Saved, Not Always Saved. These beautiful verses are a contrast between the curse of the law and the Gospel of God's Grace. Hebrews 2:2 regards the law "spoken by angels". The law was harsh, strict, and the punishment was sure.

Hebrews 2:3 regards the Gospel of God's Grace, the end of the law, spoken of by the Lord himself. The end of the law was yearned for by their fathers, and that time had come. The Gospel of God's Grace and Love was far greater and more precious than the law. Jesus Christ, himself, proclaimed the ONE GOSPEL.

Now, go back to Hebrews 2:1 and see what it actually says. The Gospel was heard from the Lord himself. What should they pay greater heed of, the law or the GOSPEL PROCLAIMED BY JESUS CHRIST? You shouldn't wonder why the word "Slip" was used. The Gospel of God's Grace was mercy, love, and Grace compared to the curse of the law. The heart of the believer was to hold this Gospel in an imperfect vessel (i.e. subject to leak). ALL OF THE GOSPEL WAS SEEN AS SO PRECIOUS THAT ALL SHOULD BE CONTAINED IN THE HEART OF THE BELIEVER.

"SLIP" in these verses has nothing to do with fall, stumble, or salvation. It pertains to keeping the entire Gospel of God's Grace in the heart, specifically because it is much greater and more precious than the law.
 

nChrist · Apr 13, 2003

9th April 2003 at 10:57 PM Ben johnson said this in Post #301

"But I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." 1Corinthians 9:27

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 

This verse has nothing to do with the loss of Salvation. You must read the chapter to determine what the Apostle Paul is talking about.

The gist of this subject is the fight Paul has with the old man, keeping sin under subjection, subduing corruption, having government over lusts, not letting sin reign in his life as it once did, and putting off the old man. 1 Corinthians 9:27 more concerns Paul's natural body, his outward appearance to man, and his testimony lived in his life. Paul was concerned about "practicing what he preached". Paul was sorely concerned that any of his personal failures might cast reproach on the Gospel he loved and preached.

"Castaway" refers to a rejection and disapproval by men, not God. Paul was concerned he might not fight a good enough fight in his Christian walk and be rejected by MEN, thus ruining his attempt to preach the Gospel. In other words, contempt for Paul equals contempt for the Gospel he loved to preach.

In conclusion, this passage deals with Paul's concerns that his personal failures and personal testimony would effect his preaching of the Gospel.

 

MAC · Apr 13, 2003

My view.

Can a child of God lose the seal of salvation? NO
That seal was not placed by men but by God.
Can a child be in rebellion? YES
That is my hope that He who has begun a good work in us will perform it until the end.
That with my mind I serve the law of the Spirit and with my flesh the law of sin.

nChrist · Apr 13, 2003

9th April 2003 at 10:57 PM Ben johnson said this in Post #301

"Although you were formerly alienated and hostile, doing evil deeds, yet now He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach---if indeed you continue firmly established and steadfast and not moved away from the hope of the Gospel" Col1:22-23
(The HOPE of the Gospel, is JESUS---1Tim1:1---"be not moved away from JESUS!") 

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 

Colossians 1:21 refers to the unsaved and wicked condition of man before acceptance of Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:22 explains how the old man of sin is reconciled by the Blood of Jesus and is seen by God as holy and blameless through and by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

First, we should all easily recognize that man will never be holy, blameless, spotless, without blemish, and without sin. Any of these qualities would have to be IMPUTED to man ONLY through the Blood of Jesus. However, man is commanded to be holy and without sin, so how can this be? The Christian's walk or walk In The Spirit is described many times as a fight or a run. Colossians 1:23 could easily say "Keep Looking Up" in this fight. The believer's foundation is not his own righteousness, rather the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

The "Hope of the Gospel" spoken of in Colossians 1:23 is eternal life and happiness in and through Jesus Christ. Again, "Keep Looking Up" is an encouragement to fight and keep fighting. Being grounded and settled is an ever increasing confidence in Jesus Christ and an ever increasing assurance of eternal life and happiness in HIM. It should be obvious by now that Jesus Christ and HIS Blood are Holiness and Righteousness IMPUTED to his flock.

Colossians 1:23 is actually and exhortation to increase in knowledge and build our hope and faith on the solid rock and foundation of Jesus Christ. Hope is an expectation of things to come. In this case, eternal life and happiness is a ROCK SOLID PROMISE of things to come, ETERNAL LIFE AND SALVATION. "Be not moved away from the hope of the Gospel" is the same as "KEEP LOOKING UP" for our courage and strength from our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Again, these verses have nothing to do with loss of Salvation. They actually describe the beauty of the Walk of a believer, a walk in the Spirit.

Ben johnson · Apr 14, 2003

I am literally typing on a membrane---keybord still doesn't work...

Paul is not speaking about believers here in Romans 11, rather of Jews who rejected the Gospel of God's Grace. Romans 11 has nothing to do with OSAS or OSNAS. Reading this chapter makes this exceptionally clear. The Jews rejected Christ and they continued to live under the law. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ ended the law, but the Jews didn't accept or believe this.

I've never understood the argument, "THIS or THAT letter is to the JEWISH PEOPLE (not us)"; are Jews held to a different standard of salvation? Nooooo, not according to Gal3:28. So how does this verse not indicate OSNAS? Do you think Paul is speakig of Israel as a PEOPLE? Does God ever save a PEOLE in SPITE of their individual beliefs? Is a Jew who does not believe in Jesus, SAVED? I don't think so. "They were cut off because of their unbelief"--- tell me how they didn't lose salvation? What about Gal5? "You WERE runing WELL; but NOW you are going BACK to the LAW-thing; you are SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE."

Can you twist Gal5 into "OSAS"? I don't think so.

Gal5 mirrors Rom 11; salvation is by grace through faith, whih is belief. Thre is no difference between Jewish Christian, Gentile Christian, male, female, slave, free. Gal3:28.

Those in Rom11 were cut off for unbelief; those in Gal5 were cut off for the exact same reason (following LAW is unbelief in CHRIST)...

Is not the SALVATION of ISRAEL, really the individual salvations of single Jews?

Ben johnson · Apr 14, 2003

Hebrews 6:4-6 does not refer to believers. Believers in this chapter are not referred to until verse 9. Hebrews 6:4-6 refers to hypocrites, those who put on a show, those who may have "tasted" of salvation but not received it. Hebrews 6:4-6 refers to an external reformation and an external show, not an internal Salvation. Reading the entire chapter makes this completely clear, regardless of what language is used.

I'm afraid the Greek doesn't allow this. Please read Heb3:1 --- see it? "Partners in a heavenly calling"? the word is "METOCHOS" --- which really means PARTNERS! Now readd Heb3:14: "Partners in Christ". Now Heb6:4: "PARTNERS with the Holy Spirit"! Does the Spirit partner with the unsaved? NO!!

&#149Partners in a heaenly calling
&#149Partners in Christ
&#149Partners with the Holy Spirit

ALL THREE are part and parcel of salvation!

Notice also Heb3:12,13,14, and 4:1; can OSAS exist in ANY of these? No.

Can Christians lose there salvation?

Can a Christian lose there salvation?

yes, if they lose their faith

no, never

depends on the situation

only if they commit the unforgiveable sin

unsure

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AKA: Tom - Saved By Grace Through Faith

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