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Opinions on the Corrective Baptism issue?

rusmeister

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If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

God grant all of us the wisdom to make a U-turn if it turns out we were wrong in our respective beliefs.

Inshallah
I think that is absolutely key, and the unwillingness to do that is part of the neo-gnosticism I’ve been talking about that riddles the Church. That’s why I’ve codified that willingness into my signature the understanding that I personally could be wrong about anything, and a willingness to be corrected by genuine authority.
 
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abacabb3

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It's a pastoral issue. Bishops may permit it to assuage those with a sensitive conscious or those who are sticklers for being by the book.

Saint Cornelius of Rome said that Novatian was disqualified from being a bishop or even a priest because of his baptism by affusion. So correct form means something, but we are not supposed to be agonizing about it.
 
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gzt

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Interestingly, Archbishop Peter of the ROCOR just commented on this issue, essentially rebuking Fr Heers' work and forbidding both him and his work from his parishes. He also had some weighty accusations about Fr Heers' conduct.
 
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abacabb3

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The screed of his was unprofessional. Seriously, "sneaking around?". Shouldn't he not air second hand allegations publicly in a letter threatening to contact fr peters bishop? If fr Peter did something so reprehensible, why can't there be specifics being that a public accusation was made?

If the shoe was on the other foot and fr Peter said "I hear vladika is sneaking around withens wives" people would be rightly condemning him. So, why is this sort of letter acceptable?

As for the other critiques, I think they miss the mark. ROCOR and the book have the exact same historical view. The crucial difference is on corrective baptisms, which are not talked about in the book in any detail. Ironically, Vladika even personally allows for correctives!

So the real difference of opinion is whether corrective baptisms should be publicized. That's a fair point of difference. I'm not sure that one difference requires such a threateningly written letter.
 
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E.C.

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The main drive on Archbishop Peter's letter was this:
1) I'm the bishop, you're the priest. I make the decisions, not you - as far as "corrective baptism" is concerned, that's his decision to make as the bishop, NOT the priest.
2) Fr Peter Heers is a subversive, don't follow his stuff.
 
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Light of the East

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Interestingly, Archbishop Peter of the ROCOR just commented on this issue, essentially rebuking Fr Heers' work and forbidding both him and his work from his parishes. He also had some weighty accusations about Fr Heers' conduct.

I'm sure Fr. Peter will put on his martyr clothing and talk about being persecuted for being faithful to the faith.
 
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ArseniusTheSilent

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It's a pastoral issue. Bishops may permit it to assuage those with a sensitive conscious or those who are sticklers for being by the book.
No, it is NOT a pastoral issue and that is precisely Archbishop Peter's point. The priest is to follow the bishop's guidance and direction. Are you suggesting that it is acceptable for a priest to receive everyone by baptism if a bishop explicitly tells him to receive them via chrismation if they were previously baptized in the Holy Trinity? If a bishop tells you to church female babies into the altar and you only do so for male babies then is that acceptable? This turns into a slippery slope almost instantaneously and is not our tradition within the church.

If a priest refuses to follow a bishop's guidance then he is no longer serving with the blessing of his bishop. That is schismatic by default if you ask me. Priests are bound by a rule of conduct to a far different degree than laity.
 
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abacabb3

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No, it is NOT a pastoral issue and that is precisely Archbishop Peter's point. The priest is to follow the bishop's guidance and direction. Are you suggesting that it is acceptable for a priest to receive everyone by baptism if a bishop explicitly tells him to receive them via chrismation if they were previously baptized in the Holy Trinity? If a bishop tells you to church female babies into the altar and you only do so for male babies then is that acceptable? This turns into a slippery slope almost instantaneously and is not our tradition within the church.

If a priest refuses to follow a bishop's guidance then he is no longer serving with the blessing of his bishop. That is schismatic by default if you ask me. Priests are bound by a rule of conduct to a far different degree than laity.
Archbishop Peter flat out said that it can be given at his discretion for pastoral reasons given people's consciences.
 
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gzt

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Yes, it's a pastoral issue at the level of "bishop as pastor" and not "priest as pastor", except where the bishop gives discretion to the priest (which in that diocese he does not, apparently).
 
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gzt

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The screed of his was unprofessional. Seriously, "sneaking around?". Shouldn't he not air second hand allegations publicly in a letter threatening to contact fr peters bishop? If fr Peter did something so reprehensible, why can't there be specifics being that a public accusation was made?
I somehow doubt given how he phrased it that this was a matter of that, and that, no, we don't need specifics in a pastoral letter? Given that he said he sent the details to who he presumed was the authority over the reverend archpriest Peter Heers, it seems he took the right steps.
 
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abacabb3

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Yes, it's a pastoral issue at the level of "bishop as pastor" and not "priest as pastor", except where the bishop gives discretion to the priest (which in that diocese he does not, apparently).
Agreed. He is not endorsing the ephraimite practice which is rebaptism everyone if they are so willing.
 
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abacabb3

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I somehow doubt given how he phrased it that this was a matter of that, and that, no, we don't need specifics in a pastoral letter? Given that he said he sent the details to who he presumed was the authority over the reverend archpriest Peter Heers, it seems he took the right steps.
You've been sneaking around with women in the parish haven't you? If your response isn't touche, you're a hypocrite and if a mod even considers acting, they condemn Archbishop Peter who has done the same.
 
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ArseniusTheSilent

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You've been sneaking around with women in the parish haven't you? If your response isn't touche, you're a hypocrite and if a mod even considers acting, they condemn Archbishop Peter who has done the same.
I'm not understanding your most recent response.
 
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abacabb3

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I'm not understanding your most recent response.
Let me spell it out some more, because I'm not serious. The point is, if it is insulting for me to accuse anyone here of "sneaking around with women in the parish," then isn't what Vladika did insulting?

I agree with his baptismal position, but not the vitriol.
 
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gzt

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I'm not understanding your most recent response.
His argument is essentially that Abp Peter did not disclose sufficient detail to identify the incidents or did not disclose the evidence. You must consider what we're dealing with here.
1694478806731.png

Let me spell it out some more, because I'm not serious. The point is, if it is insulting for me to accuse anyone here of "sneaking around with women in the parish," then isn't what Vladika did insulting?

I agree with his baptismal position, but not the vitriol.
The difference is that the letter strongly implies he has the details of the incidents in question while you know that you have no evidence of such? I mean, the epistemic position you take here would also say that providing the details would be irrelevant since those could also be made up? He gave a sufficient explanation and I find it frankly odd to take such umbrage to these few words which imply he has sufficient basis to act:
1694478882583.png

And, yes, I think your accusation toward me should have moderator action taken toward it, but I will not report it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, it's a pastoral issue at the level of "bishop as pastor" and not "priest as pastor", except where the bishop gives discretion to the priest (which in that diocese he does not, apparently).
indeed. I have had Protestants (baptized in a Trinitarian formula with water) want to be received via baptism, and I say no because the bishop says chrismation. and then I just shrug because it’s the bishop’s parish and not mine.
 
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abacabb3

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His argument is essentially that Abp Peter did not disclose sufficient detail to identify the incidents or did not disclose the evidence. You must consider what we're dealing with here.
View attachment 336004

The difference is that the letter strongly implies he has the details of the incidents in question while you know that you have no evidence of such? I mean, the epistemic position you take here would also say that providing the details would be irrelevant since those could also be made up? He gave a sufficient explanation and I find it frankly odd to take such umbrage to these few words which imply he has sufficient basis to act:
View attachment 336005
And, yes, I think your accusation toward me should have moderator action taken toward it, but I will not report it.
So repeating rumors is a "sufficient explanation?" Golden rule, my friend. You ain't following it.
 
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