The rest of the dead is key in determining when the millennium is meaning

DavidPT

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Huh? I can't make any sense of what you're saying here at all. Revelation 19:21 is referring to living people being killed when Christ returns. How can it be referring to anything else?

My point was, if Revelation 20 chronologically follows Revelation 19, rather than how you are interpreting it, this should mean the following. Christ returns before the beginning of the thousand years. Those in Revelation 19:21 are then killed. Before this even happens the first resurrection occurs, the bodily rising of saints(1 Thessalonians 4:17-20).

Then the millennium begins. Thus, those killed per Revelation 19:21 are dead before the millennium begins, remain dead during the millennium, and don't live again until after the millennium. Thus some of the rest of the dead meant in Revelation 20:5.

Weren't you a Premil in the past? Did you think any of those per Revelation 19:21 were still alive during the millennium when you were a Premil? It might be different if you had never been a Premil before, then not being able to make sense of what I was proposing. But that was not the case in your case since you initially were Premil.


I'm not seeing any reason why Revelation 20:9 and Revelation 19:21 can't be referring to the same event.

There are numerous reasons why they can't be referring to the same event. It contradicts Zechariah 14:16-19, for one. It doesn't explain who those in Revelation 20:9--the number of whom is as the sand of the sea--are during the millennium. Obviously, if they are alive and present after the millennium, this means they are alive and present during the millennium. And if they are deceived after the millennium, and that the millennium is now, this would mean they are deceived during the millennium as well, billions maybe, which then contradicts that satan is bound so that he should no longer deceive the nations during the millennium.

I can come up with plenty more reasons why these can't be the same event.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Revelation 20:4 Jesus will bring the souls of the GT martyrs back from under the Altar in heaven and bring them back to life, or: they lived again...
Lazarus was the precursor for what Jesus will do for the GT martyrs
That does not say anything about anyone being resurrected with mortal bodies. Try again.

Revelation 20:6 says those who are in this first Resurrection - the GT martyrs, can die again,
What?! Where does it say that?

but as their names are in the Book of Life. their second death will not affect their getting immortality at the GWT Judgment.
Their second death? The second death is being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15). No believer will suffer the second death in the future.

The last Trump is not when Jesus Returns; that is the shout of the Archangel and the trump of God, 1 Thess 4:16.
That is the same thing. Scripture teaches that all of the dead in Christ are raised at the last trumpet and it teaches that they are raised at His return (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23), so that means the last trumpet will sound when He returns.

ONLY after the Millennium does the Last Trumpet call all the dead to rise and stand in Judgment.
Yes, that's right. You have said this to me many times and I have agreed many times, and yet you continue to say this to me as if I disagreed with this. That is just downright hilarious!

But you, of course; are fooled by the AMill theory and avoid reading Rev 20, as that Chapter destroys AMill.
It doesn't destroy it at all. Jesus reigns now, as scripture so very explicitly teaches (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-22, etc.).

Don't you realize that to downgrade and deny the Words of one Bible Chapter, you are calling ALL the Bible into question?
I'm not doing that. Do you realize that judging me like this puts you in danger of being judged with the same measure that you are judging me?

Not a good look and the credibility of the people who believe AMillenniumism, is shot to ribbons
.
Only in your imagination.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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My point was, if Revelation 20 chronologically follows Revelation 19, rather than how you are interpreting it, this should mean the following. Christ returns before the beginning of the thousand years. Those in Revelation 19:21 are then killed. Before this even happens the first resurrection occurs, the bodily rising of saints(1 Thessalonians 4:17-20).

Then the millennium begins. Thus, those killed per Revelation 19:21 are dead before the millennium begins, remain dead during the millennium, and don't live again until after the millennium. Thus some of the rest of the dead meant in Revelation 20:5.
I don't get this. What was the reason that you felt you had to explain how Premils interpret Revelation 19 and 20 as if I didn't already know? Of course, I already know this.

Weren't you a Premil in the past?
Yes.

Did you think any of those per Revelation 19:21 were still alive during the millennium when you were a Premil?
Of course not. Why would I think that?

It might be different if you had never been a Premil before, then not being able to make sense of what I was proposing. But that was not the case in your case since you initially were Premil.
Are you proposing anything besides how Premils typically interpret Revelation 19 and 20? Not as far as I can tell. So, what is the point here?

There are numerous reasons why they can't be referring to the same event.
Not that I can see.

It contradicts Zechariah 14:16-19, for one.
No, it does not. Your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 contradicts many other passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. Also, a literal, futurist interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19 implies that animal sacrifices would be reinstated (keeping the feast of tabernacles involves animal sacrifices) which completely contradicts New Testament scripture like Hebrews 8-10.

It doesn't explain who those in Revelation 20:9--the number of whom is as the sand of the sea--are during the millennium.
What doesn't explain that? I can't figure out what you're saying half of the time. Please try to be more clear.


Obviously, if they are alive and present after the millennium, this means they are alive and present during the millennium.
Yeah, so? What is your point?

And if they are deceived after the millennium, and that the millennium is now, this would mean they are deceived during the millennium as well, billions maybe, which then contradicts that satan is bound so that he should no longer deceive the nations during the millennium.
Do you understand that I and other Amils do not have the same understanding of what it means for Satan to be bound and what it means for him to "deceive the nations" as you do? You'd only have a point here if we agreed with you on what that means, but we don't.

I can come up with plenty more reasons why these can't be the same event.
These are reasons based only on YOUR own perspective. Give me even one reason why they can't be the same event when looking at things from the Amil perspective.
 
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keras

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That does not say anything about anyone being resurrected with mortal bodies. Try again.
But Lazarus and several others WERE resurrected back to mortal life.
You denials of this are against Bible truth.
What?! Where does it say that?
Those resurrected martyrs will become Jesus' priests and co-rulers in the physical world of the Millennium. There cannot be immortal people and mortals living together.
Their second death? The second death is being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14-15). No believer will suffer the second death in the future.
Yes; the Second death of the wicked is their final fate. Revelation 20:14b
But those martyrs who may die again, as mortals: that Second Death won't affect their final destiny of immortality, given to them at the GWT Judgment.
That is the same thing. Scripture teaches that all of the dead in Christ are raised at the last trumpet and it teaches that they are raised at His return (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23), so that means the last trumpet will sound when He returns.
This is a wrong assertion. The trump of the Archangel, 1 Thess 4:16 is not said to be the Last Trump.
1 Cor 15:22-23, does not say ALL those who belong to Christ. They are ONLY the GT martyrs.
People have to rip Rev 20:4 out of their Bibles to make their false doctrine of a general resurrection when Jesus Returns.
Yes, that's right. You have said this to me many times and I have agreed many times, and yet you continue to say this to me as if I disagreed with this. That is just downright hilarious!
What is not hilarious, but very sad and confused, is that you believe we are in the Millennium now and the Last Trump and the GWT Judgment take place when Jesus Returns.
Jesus reigns now, as scripture so very explicitly teaches (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-22, etc.).
You seem unable to recognize the reality of the world today and how it has been since Jesus departed to heaven.
Also to realize that the verses about the Kingdom of Jesus, are unfulfilled Prophesies.
I'm not doing that.
AMill believers call Revelation 20 a 'highly debatable chapter' and basically deny the whole thing. Will God just pass over this?
Only in your imagination.
It isn't my imagination to look forward to the wonderful time when Jesus will reign on earth. Isaiah 2:1-5
 
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Spiritual Jew

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But Lazarus and several others WERE resurrected back to mortal life.
You denials of this are against Bible truth.
Do you think that lying about me helps your case? I have never denied that Lazarus and others were resurrected to mortal life. I have very specifically said that they were resurrected to mortal life because I have pointed out how scripture says that Jesus was the first to be resurrected from the dead and the context of that is that He was the first to be resurrected unto bodily immortality rather than Him being the first to be resurrected in any sense. Obviously, Lazarus and others were resurrected before He was. But, they all died again.

So, why are you lying about what I believe?

What I deny is your belief that scripture teaches that people will be resurrected to mortal life IN THE FUTURE.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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I realize there is already a current thread on this topic. Except that thread is for Amils only, and I'm not an Amil. Otherwise, instead of making a new thread on the same subject, I would have posted in that one instead. And since I'm interested in discussing this topic but can't since that other thread is Amil only, I'm left with starting a new thread on this same topic. But not to compete with the other one, but to be able to discuss this topic with others, regardless whether one is Premil or Amil.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


I realize it is hard for both sides to do, keep Premil vs Amil out of it for a moment, and just let the text lead us to conclude what we need to conclude in regards to when the millennium is meaning.

When it says this in verse 5---This is the first resurrection---all interpreters, regardless which side of the debate they are on, should take that to be involving verse 4 and 6 and not this instead---But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. That is obviously not meaning the first resurrection if the first resurrection involves the thousand years, and that that is meaning after the thousand years.

Since there is still the rest of the dead following the first resurrection, this tends to tell us this.

Initially there is one big group, they are all dead. Then when the first resurrection occurs, some of this dead live again at that time while the remainder of the dead, they don't get to live again until the thousand years have expired. Does that mean they live again the moment the thousand years expire?

Though it could mean that, it doesn't have to mean that, because even if they didn't live again until a million years later, it would still agree with the text, that they don't live again until after the thousand years expire. A million years after the thousand years is clearly after it has expired. I'm just trying to illustrate a point here, so don't take this million years literally, as if it could be a million years after the thousand years when the rest of the dead live again.

When the rest of the dead live again, what sense is that meaning? Because what ever sense we take that to mean, why would that same sense not equally apply to those who have part in the first resurrection?

Another point I have raised in the past is this. Obviously, 2nd to Christ's, the bodily resurrection of the saints is the most important resurrection of all.

But if the first resurrection is not meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints, and that when the rest of the dead live again, is also not meaning the bodily resurrection of the saints, where then is the bodily resurrection of the saints recorded in Revelation 20? How is it reasonable that no resurrection event recorded in Revelation 20 is involving the bodily resurrection of the saints?

I'll stop here for now. Have some more to add but I think I will save that for later.
I'm in disagreement, but you write that you are open to such disagreement in discussion here.
I'd like to point out that to follow your reasoning you end up in tension with I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4 which are written plainly and not in the same manner as a revelation (which requires interpretation) and that is what the book of Revelation is...a revelation...obviously. You are in danger of adding to the words of the revelation which the book itself warns against. ..I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4 make no mention of two comings of the Lord and no two resurrection of the dead.
The first resurrection spoken of in Revelation is figurative...it is being born again...you were dead in your sins (Ephesians 2:1-3) and more clearly illustrated as figurative language in Colossians 2:13: 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,..again, born again! Wonderfully put! Then follow on in Ephesians, more rich figurative language: Ephesians 5:14:
“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”
Read the surrounding discourse...born again nature.

I beg a comment before I continue on with my comments and interpretations of the other Revelation passages sited..
 
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keras

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What I deny is your belief that scripture teaches that people will be resurrected to mortal life IN THE FUTURE.
It is plainly stated in Revelation 20:4-6, that those faithful Christians killed for their faith during the 42 month period of world control by the 'beast', will be raise back to mortal life. Proved by how they can die a second death.
ONLY at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium, can they, or anyone receive immortality.

I oppose your beliefs on this matter. Accusing people of lying, shows a intransigent and unchristian attitude.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It is plainly stated in Revelation 20:4-6, that those faithful Christians killed for their faith during the 42 month period of world control by the 'beast', will be raise back to mortal life.
LOL. No, that is not stated in any way, shape or form, let alone "plainly". You are reading things into the text that are not even remotely indicated there.

Proved by how they can die a second death.
The second death is being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). Scripture never says anything about anyone in the future dying a second physical death.

ONLY at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium, can they, or anyone receive immortality.
I agree that it can't occur until after the thousand years, as I've told you many times.

I oppose your beliefs on this matter. Accusing people of lying, shows a intransigent and unchristian attitude.
You did lie and I won't apologize for saying so. It is Christian to tell the truth and the truth is that you did lie. You said this:

keras said:
But Lazarus and several others WERE resurrected back to mortal life.
You denials of this are against Bible truth.
I NEVER denied that "Lazarus and several others WERE resurrected back to mortal life". I believe that Lazarus and those others died again after being resurrected. But, you said I denied that. That is a lie.
 
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keras

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No, that is not stated in any way, shape or form,
Revelation 20:4 says: 'brought back to life' REBible or 'and they lived' KJV.
There is no mention of 'glorification or immortality'. As people during the Millennium will die naturally, Isaiah 65:20, albeit living much longer lives; then why should those martyrs receive immortality before the GWT Judgment?

'no way, shape or form?
I find it extraordinary that anyone could say that Revelation 20:4, does not mean resurrected back to mortal life.

Note the way Jesus made sure that Lazarus was well and truly dead, before He 'brought him back to mortal life. John 11:17
Jesus waited 4 days before going to resurrect Lazarus, why else would he wait, if not to show us how He will again resurrect very dead people after He Returns. But ONLY those martyrs killed for their faith during the final 3 1/2 years. The rest of the dead must wait for the GWT Judgment.
 
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keras

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I see that the truth prevails.
An admission of the error of AMillenniumism would be in order. In no way are we in the Millennium now, Jesus will Return personally and rule on earth personally. He was here personally before and He will come again; next time it will be as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, His reward from God for His first role as the suffering servant. Psalms 2:7-9

Then; as Revelation 20:11-15 says; AFTER the Millennium, all those worthy will receive immortality.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Revelation 20:4 says: 'brought back to life' REBible or 'and they lived' KJV.
There is no mention of 'glorification or immortality'. As people during the Millennium will die naturally, Isaiah 65:20, albeit living much longer lives; then why should those martyrs receive immortality before the GWT Judgment?
Isaiah 65:20 is in relation to the new heavens and new earth. It can't possibly be literally referring to people dying because that would contradict Revelation 21:1-4. Also, do you even consider the verse that comes before it (Isaiah 65:19)? Do you think during a supposed future Millennium that people will die and no one will mourn their deaths? That is what you would have to believe based on how you interpret Isaiah 65:20.

'no way, shape or form?
I find it extraordinary that anyone could say that Revelation 20:4, does not mean resurrected back to mortal life.
Why would you find that extraordinary when you may very well be the only person in the world who believes that? I find YOUR interpretation to be extraordinary.

Note the way Jesus made sure that Lazarus was well and truly dead, before He 'brought him back to mortal life. John 11:17
Jesus waited 4 days before going to resurrect Lazarus, why else would he wait, if not to show us how He will again resurrect very dead people after He Returns.
This connection between Lazarus and Revelation 20:4 is something you made up in your own imagination. Scripture itself makes no such connection.

But ONLY those martyrs killed for their faith during the final 3 1/2 years. The rest of the dead must wait for the GWT Judgment.
You assume that only those martyrs have part in the first resurrection. You are drawing conclusions from that text without taking the rest of scripture into account. If you insist on seeing that as referring to the bodily resurrection of believers then you should remember that scripture teaches that all believers will be bodily resurrected at the same time when Christ returns. So, your view of a separate mass bodily resurrection event besides the one Jesus referenced in John 5:28-29 or the one Paul referenced in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-54 contradicts the rest of scripture which teaches that all believers will be bodily resurrected at the same time.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I see that the truth prevails.
You think you won the argument just because I had other things to do than post here since then? LOL. Get over yourself.

An admission of the error of AMillenniumism would be in order.
This will never happen since Amillennialism is true, so you need to give up on this idea.

In no way are we in the Millennium now,
Jesus reigns now, as you deny. That is on you. You do not accept what scripture teaches.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Jesus will Return personally and rule on earth personally.
No, He won't. He will burn up the heavens and earth when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-13) and will deliver His kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-28) and will rule by His side in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

He was here personally before and He will come again; next time it will be as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, His reward from God for His first role as the suffering servant. Psalms 2:7-9
He is King of kings and Lord of lords now! For you to not recognize this means you don't even know who Jesus is right now! Name one person or thing that He does not have authority over right now. Make sure you read the passages I quoted above first before answering so that you don't contradict what those passages clearly say.

Then; as Revelation 20:11-15 says; AFTER the Millennium, all those worthy will receive immortality.
I agree that those worthy will receive immortality AFTER the Millennium. Paul said that will happen at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the last trumpet will sound when He returns.
 
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keras

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I agree that those worthy will receive immortality AFTER the Millennium. Paul said that will happen at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54) and the last trumpet will sound when He returns.
It is beyond credibility to believe we are in the Millennium now. How anyone can say we are, with the state of turmoil and sin the world is in now?

I have proved that Pauls Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment, after Jesus has literally reigned on earth for a literal thousand years. Only then will Death be done away with - Revelation 21:4, for Eternity.

This is the logical, practical and Biblical sequence of the end times. You do know that Jesus is yet to Return, but then He receive His reward' of reigning for the next thousand years and the worship of all the peoples. Zechariah 14:16-21
 
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It is beyond credibility to believe we are in the Millennium now. How anyone can say we are, with the state of turmoil and sin the world is in now?
You only say that because you don't understand what it means for Satan to be bound and what it means for Christ to reign and for His followers to reign with Him. Scripture teaches that Jesus reigns now (Matt 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-23) and that believers are priests of God the Father and Son in His kingdom right now (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6). So, that should be your starting point for understanding the timing of the thousand years, but instead you either disregard or twist these scriptures that I've referenced to fit your understanding of Revelation 20. It should be the other way around as far as which scripture you use to help understand other scriptures. The book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Our doctrines should be founded on clear, straightforward scripture that we then use to help us interpret scripture contained in books like Revelation.

I have proved that Pauls Prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment, after Jesus has literally reigned on earth for a literal thousand years. Only then will Death be done away with - Revelation 21:4, for Eternity.
Paul indicated that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 will occur when the dead in Christ are resurrected at the last trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

When will the dead in Christ be resurrected? When Jesus returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This is the logical, practical and Biblical sequence of the end times.
I showed that above. You inexplicably deny that passages like 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 are about Jesus Christ's return and that is a big reason why your doctrine is all messed up.

You do know that Jesus is yet to Return, but then He receive His reward' of reigning for the next thousand years and the worship of all the peoples. Zechariah 14:16-21
No, I don't know of things that aren't going to happen. He has yet to return, but the rest of that will not happen. If Zechariah 14:16-21 was about a time after His return then it would imply the reinstating of animal sacrifices and that will never happen. I guarantee that and would bet my life on it.
 
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keras

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You only say that because you don't understand what it means for Satan to be bound and what it means for Christ to reign
Those things mean what they say: Satan bound in chains, means he will not be 'like a roaring lion looking for who he can devour'.
Jesus reigning: means He will be present and visible on earth, in full control of all the nations.
Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Our doctrines should be founded on clear, straightforward scripture that we then use to help us interpret scripture contained in books like Revelation.
This statement is sheer nonsense. Take Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, for example.
There are over 70 other Prophesies, OT and NT, that describe that forthcoming terrible Day. They are quite clear to anyone who doesn't have another agenda.
When will the dead in Christ be resurrected? When Jesus returns.
You knowingly and purposely reject scripture; the verse in Revelation 20:4, that plainly tells us that only the GT martyrs will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.
Your support verses do not say 'all' the dead will be raised.
If Zechariah 14:16-21 was about a time after His return then it would imply the reinstating of animal sacrifices and that will never happen. I guarantee that and would bet my life on it.
But Zechariah 14:16-21 IS a prophecy of how it will be after Jesus Returns. As Zechariah 14:3 tells us. It surely isn't how it is now!
Bet your life? A very rash and foolish statement. This very night, your soul may be required of you.

We Christians will make sacrifices and offerings to God in a new Temple, Before and after Jesus Returns. As per Ezekiel 40 to 46.
God does not change, Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, who are you to disallow what God wanted before and will again require of His people?
 
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Those things mean what they say: Satan bound in chains, means he will not be 'like a roaring lion looking for who he can devour'.
Jesus reigning: means He will be present and visible on earth, in full control of all the nations.

That is not what Bible says.

Although Satan is bound FOR the Elect so the the nations will not be deceived. In other words, they can get saved by hearing the gospel. But Satan is still the prince of the air and still goes out like a roaring lion looking for who he can devour. But he will not be able to prevent Christ from spoiling His people for his house. Read Matthew 25 again and again!

Jesus has established his kingdom through His church where he has reign since the Cross. Not your future fantasy of a world with peace where all governments of physical nations will obey him.
This statement is sheer nonsense. Take Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, for example.

That is God's wrath upon his unfaithful congregation. Simple.
You knowingly and purposely reject scripture; the verse in Revelation 20:4, that plainly tells us that only the GT martyrs will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.
Your support verses do not say 'all' the dead will be raised.

Rev 20:4
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

"Great Tribulation martyrs?" That does not say it in verse 4. You speculated.


But Zechariah 14:16-21 IS a prophecy of how it will be after Jesus Returns. As Zechariah 14:3 tells us. It surely isn't how it is now!
Bet your life? A very rash and foolish statement. This very night, your soul may be required of you.

Sorry to disappoint you. Zechariah 14 has everything to do with Christ's first advent. Not the second coming.

We Christians will make sacrifices and offerings to God in a new Temple, Before and after Jesus Returns. As per Ezekiel 40 to 46.

Is that your understanding of Ezekiel 40 where Christians will physically go to a new rebuilt temple and make sacrifices and offerings despite that Christ has already sacrificed himself on our behalf? Just wow!
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Those things mean what they say:
This is what people say when they are lacking in discernment. You think the Bible always means what it says, do you? Should we be on the lookout for a literal beast that has ten literal horns and seven literal heads?

Satan bound in chains, means he will not be 'like a roaring lion looking for who he can devour'.
You are not even considering what he is bound from doing. You don't take other scripture into consideration, such as this passage:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

Do you have any understanding of what passages like this mean? In Old Testament times, Satan held the power of death which he used to hold people "in slavery by their fear of death". Most people had no hope of eternal life back then. But when Jesus came and died for the sins of the world and rose again from the dead, He set "free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death". He gave the hope of eternal life to those who were previously held in slavery by their fear of death. In order to do that, he had to take the power of death away from Satan. So, Satan was bound from keeping people as slaves to the fear of death anymore because the gospel of Christ brought the hope of eternal life to the world.

You are not able to differentiate between symbolic and literal text and that is why you misinterpret Revelation 20 so badly.

Jesus reigning: means He will be present and visible on earth, in full control of all the nations.
Where does scripture teach this? You like to make claims like this, but you can't back them up with scripture.

This statement is sheer nonsense.
This is what you said in response to me saying this: "Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Our doctrines should be founded on clear, straightforward scripture that we then use to help us interpret scripture contained in books like Revelation.". Are you kidding me? Are you denying that Revelation is a highly symbolic book? A book containing descriptions of a Lamb standing among seven golden lampstands while holding the seven spirits of God and seven stars in His hand, a dragon with seven heads and ten horns, a beast with seven heads and ten horns, a woman riding on a beast with seven heads and ten horns on many waters, and so on? That is not a highly symbolic book?

And you think it isn't true that we should make the foundation of our doctrines from clear, straightforward scripture instead of highly symbolic scripture? You think that is sheer nonsense? I think you thinking that is sheer nonsense is sheer nonsense. Apparently, you consider a logical and common sense approach to interpreting scripture to be "sheer nonsense".

Take Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, for example.
There are over 70 other Prophesies, OT and NT, that describe that forthcoming terrible Day. They are quite clear to anyone who doesn't have another agenda.
LOL. You deny what the one that is the most clear about the day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10-12), indicates, which is that the heavens and the earth will be burned up when Jesus returns like a thief in the night.

You knowingly and purposely reject scripture;
That is a lie. Did you know that lying is a sin? You need to repent of your lying. If I'm wrong in any of my interpretations, so be it, but I would never purposely reject scripture. I would never accuse you of that, either. You're wrong about a lot of things, but not purposely.

the verse in Revelation 20:4, that plainly tells us that only the GT martyrs will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.
Your support verses do not say 'all' the dead will be raised.
Another lie. The following passages very clearly say that all of the dead in Christ will be raised at the same time:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

You try to say that I don't accept what scripture plainly tells us and, yet, you blatantly reject what these scriptures plainly tell us.

But Zechariah 14:16-21 IS a prophecy of how it will be after Jesus Returns. As Zechariah 14:3 tells us. It surely isn't how it is now!
It can't be and I've already explained why. For a Christian to think that animal sacrifices would ever be reinstated is just unbelievable to me in light of what Christ accomplished with His once for all sacrifice.

Bet your life?
Yes. I am that certain. Are you jealous that I am that certain about what I believe? Why would it offend you?

A very rash and foolish statement. This very night, your soul may be required of you.
I know what I know and I don't apologize for saying so. You, with your lack of discernment, are not in a position to tell someone else what is a foolish statement or not.

Keras said:
We Christians will make sacrifices and offerings to God in a new Temple, Before and after Jesus Returns. As per Ezekiel 40 to 46.
For what purpose? Answer this question if you want to be taken seriously.

God does not change, Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, who are you to disallow what God wanted before and will again require of His people?
God does not change, but the covenants did. The old covenant and its animal sacrifices was replaced by the better new covenant that was established by Christ's sacrifice. I don't disallow anything except for what would contradict scripture and the concept of animal sacrifices being reinstated would contradict what is taught in New Testament scripture like Hebrews 8-10 which teaches that Christ's "once for all" sacrifice put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and made them obsolete forever.
 
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Timtofly

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No, I don't know of things that aren't going to happen. He has yet to return, but the rest of that will not happen. If Zechariah 14:16-21 was about a time after His return then it would imply the reinstating of animal sacrifices and that will never happen. I guarantee that and would bet my life on it.
Can you point out in the feast of tabernacles where there is a single animal sacrificed? In that feast there is a scapegoat let out into the wild. The feast of tabernacles is setting up booths or tents, and bringing the firstfruits of one's harvest in thanks. It is similar to the Thanksgiving celebration of the United States. Each nation would send a delegation to Jerusalem in recognition of the feast of tabernacles each year. This is not even the yearly entering into the Holy of Holies and offering up a sacrifice. Why do you pretend the feast of tabernacles is something it is not?

"Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts."

Sacrifice is not just about "killing stuff". You do realize that eating food and preparing food to eat, involves pots and bowels? Bringing the firstfruits of a harvest to Jerusalem in the feast of tabernacles is not even the same as the yearly Passover event in the spring. There is no need to kill a Passover Sacrifice any more. Probably not even a need to send a scapegoat out into the wild either. But you keep insinuating the return of the entire Law of Moses, because there is a future millennium talked about in Zechariah 14.

In Revelation 15, they sing the song of Moses. Does that mean the return of animal sacrifices is prophecied?
 
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TribulationSigns

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Can you point out in the feast of tabernacles where there is a single animal sacrificed? In that feast there is a scapegoat let out into the wild. The feast of tabernacles is setting up booths or tents, and bringing the firstfruits of one's harvest in thanks.

But you keep insinuating the return of the entire Law of Moses, because there is a future millennium talked about in Zechariah 14.

In Revelation 15, they sing the song of Moses. Does that mean the return of animal sacrifices is prophecied?

I would encourage anyone to read the following article about the feast of Tabernacles which I believe is a more biblical understanding of Zechariah 14.

The Feast of Tabernacles: The prophetic significance of the Feast of Tabernacles to the Church, in the fulfilling of the Millennial Reign of Christ.
 
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keras

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LOL. You deny what the one that is the most clear about the day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10-12), indicates, which is that the heavens and the earth will be burned up when Jesus returns like a thief in the night.
This sentence is the classic example of your confusion and error about prophesied end time things.
The terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, the Sixth Seal; is not the event when the earth and heavens will be made new. In fact you have argued there is no fire on that Day, so you contradict yourself. [but there will be extreme heat; Isaiah 64:1-2, Malachi 4:1, Jeremiah 17:8]
Jesus does not Return as a thief. This idea is refuted by Revelation 1:7 and other scriptures.

It is the foolish and anti-scripture AMillennium belief that is the cause of your mistaken comments, as above.
In Revelation 15, they sing the song of Moses. Does that mean the return of animal sacrifices is prophecied?
The return to sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple is plainly prophesied.
Any denials of this is a blatant rejection of many scriptures.
 
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