step-by-step

Spiritual Jew · May 26, 2023

Douggg said:
John was in the wilderness, the Jordan river, not Jerusalem.

That is irrelevant.

Douggg said:
The prophecy in Daniel 9:25 is to take place in Jerusalem, as that is what the 70 weeks are appointed to in Daniel 9:24 in the text.

It talks about the rebuilding of Jerusalem but it does not say that "unto Messiah" has to do with the Messiah being revealed in Jerusalem. That is your ASSUMPTION.

Douggg said:
The center of activity for the prophecies in Daniel 9:24 is Jerusalem.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Again, it does not say "unto the revealing of the Messiah in Jerusalem". You are adding that to the text. Where He was first revealed is not relevant to the prophecy.

Truth7t7 · May 26, 2023

Douggg said:
"time no longer" is an expression to mean, no more delay. In the "days" of the voice of the seventh angel - i.e. the time/times/half time period, the mystery of God should be finished. The mystery of God is the ending of Satan and his angels, the destruction of their mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great, and the bringing of the Kingdom of God and His Christ to become the ruling kingdom over the nations of the earth.

Scripture states when the 7th angel "Begins" to sound, God's mystery is finished

Then you state God's mystery is the ending of Satan and the angels as seen above

Previously you stated after the 7th Trump, the beast was given 42 months to operate

Conclusion: Your eschatology has changed several times in one day, how can it be taken seriously

Revelation 10:5-7KJV
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Spiritual Jew · May 26, 2023

Truth7t7 said:
Scripture states when the 7th angel "Begins" to sound, God's mystery is finished

Then you state God's mystery is the ending of Satan and the angels as seen above

Previously you stated after the 7th Trump, the beast was given 42 months to operate

Conclusion: Your eschatology has changed several times in one day, how can it be taken seriously

Revelation 10:5-7KJV
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Right. He is ignoring what Revelation 10:7 says. It clearly indicates that the mystery of God will be finished when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet. And it should be obvious that the mystery of God will not be finished 42 months before Christ returns. It will be finished at the moment He returns at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet.

Douggg · May 26, 2023

Truth7t7 said:
Scripture states when the 7th angel "Begins" to sound, God's mystery is finished

Then you state God's mystery is the ending of Satan and the angels as seen above

I went back and edit my post to read ... "Satan and his angels grip over the nations,"

btw, I did not write Satan and "the" angels - but Satan and "his" angels.

Douggg · May 26, 2023

Truth7t7 said:
Previously you stated after the 7th Trump, the beast was given 42 months to operate

Conclusion: Your eschatology has changed several times in one day, how can it be taken seriously

No, you are twisting what I wrote. Copy and paste what I wrote next time.

Douggg · May 26, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
I'm not intentionally falsely stating anything. That is a lie. Excuse me for thinking that 69 weeks is the same as 483 years. Which is true if you understand each week to represent 7 years.

You falsely stated what I wrote - 483 years - to 69 weeks. I have explained to you why I wrote 483 years.

Spiritual Jew said:
It indicates that the Messiah, who we know is Jesus, would be cut off after the first 483 years of the 490 year prophecy ended. And the prophecy itself does not specify how long after that He would be cut off. We all determine that using other scripture.

Cutoff - how long - in years, after the 483 years?

And when do you have the "unto messiah" fulfillment relevant to the 483 years?

Spiritual Jew · May 26, 2023

Douggg said:
You falsely stated what I wrote - 483 years - to 69 weeks. I have explained to you why I wrote 483 years.

LOL. You, along with most of us here, believe that the 69 weeks equates to 483 years, so you're just being silly and that's all there is to it.
,

Douggg said:
Cutoff - how long - in years, after the 483 years?

You already know this, so why are you asking? As you already know, I believe He was cut off 3.5 years after the first 69 weeks/483 years ended. Any other questions you'd like to ask me of which you already know the answer?

Douggg said:
And when do you have the "unto messiah" fulfillment relevant to the 483 years?

At the very end of it. On the last day of the first 483 years of the 490 year prophecy, in other words.

Douggg · May 26, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
You already know this, so why are you asking? As you already know, I believe He was cut off 3.5 years after the first 69 weeks/483 years ended. Any other questions you'd like to ask me of which you already know the answer?

So that is after 486.5 years

Spiritual Jew said:
At the very end of it. On the last day of the first 483 years of the 490 year prophecy, in other words.

On the last day of the first 483 years is the same as at the end of the 483 - which you were saying I was wrong to do so.

Spiritual Jew · May 26, 2023

Douggg said:
So that is after 486.5 years

What do you mean? Are you trying to misrepresent my view? It says He would be cut off after the first 483 years. I'm not saying that it says He would be cut off after 486.5 years, if that's what you're saying. It says He would be cut off some time after the first 483 years ended, but it doesn't say how long after. That places His crucifixion sometime within years 484 to 490, if you want to look at it that way.

Douggg said:
On the last day of the first 483 years is the same as at the end of the 483 - which you were saying I was wrong to do so.

No, what I've said is that saying He would be cut off at the end of the 483 years rather than some time AFTER the 483 years ends is wrong. I never said that seeing Him fulfilling the "unto Messiah" part at the end of the 483 years is wrong. It seems like you're sometimes forgetting to differentiate between the timing of the "unto Messiah" part being fulfilled and the timing of the Messiah being cut off being fulfilled.

Marilyn C · May 26, 2023

Douggg said:
Hi Marilyn,

What God is revealing is the timeline of events for the 7 year 70th week. The timeline of events for the 7 year 70th week is derived from...

the time expressions + the evolving changes of the little horn person. <<<< I am repeating because it is really key.

The 2 witnesses toward the end part (last 75 days) of their 1260 days time are in the great tribulation.... because the little horn person will have evolved into the beast, and the great tribulation begins when a statue image of the beast is placed on the temple mount.

Marilyn, Revelation 11 does not use the term the Antichrist, but instead "the beast", the final evolved stage of the little horn person.

After the two witnesses are brought back to life and ascend to heaven - on day 1263.5, the beast will have 42 months (a nominal expression) to reign without the two witnesses around to impede him.

============================================

the evolving changes of the little horn person is.... (this is really critical to realize)

the little horn > becomes the prince who shall come > becomes the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As the beast, he is no longer the Antichrist, the invalid King of Israel coming in his own name. Please look at the evolving changes line above.

He will become the Antichrist, invalid King of Israel, as the 7 years begin. Then in the middle part, around 3 years into it, he goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God - revealing himself as the man of sin.

The Jews at that point will be mortified and will reject him as continuing as their King of Israel - which ends his time as being the Antichrist.

God has him killed for his audacious act, but brings him back to life in disdain for him, and as part of God's plan to deal with Satan, who is the one who will convince the person that he can achieve God-hood.

Brought back to life, he becomes the beast. As the beast, he becomes ruthless, cunning, and totally evil, a tool of Satan - who following the exit of the two witnesses, and the 7th trumpet sounding, will be cast down to earth.

Hi Dougg,

The beast, is symbolical of the nature of the GG and its leader. When he is wounded it is `as if...` not actually dying. And God certainly does not do that.

As to the 2 witnesses they rise at the second woe, (Rev. 11: 11 - 14) which is just before the great earthquake. (Rev. 16: 17 & 18) And that is just before the Lord returns at the end of the trib. (Joel 3: 15 & 16)

The 3 woes help place events in the great trib.

Douggg · May 26, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
What do you mean? Are you trying to misrepresent my view? It says He would be cut off after the first 483 years. I'm not saying that it says He would be cut off after 486.5 years, if that's what you're saying. It says He would be cut off some time after the first 483 years ended, but it doesn't say how long after. That places His crucifixion sometime within years 484 to 490, if you want to look at it that way.

Your view has the messiah cutoff 3 1/2 years after the 483 years, correct ? That insinuates that the messiah being cutoff would not be immediately after 483 years. Instead, extending out to 486.5 years.

That's the whole point, I have been making. On the last day of the 483 years the messiah arrives in Jerusalem, riding a donkey. 4 days later he is cutoff. Immediately after the 483 years.

Douggg · May 26, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
It seems like you're sometimes forgetting to differentiate between the timing of the "unto Messiah" part being fulfilled and the timing of the Messiah being cut off being fulfilled.

Yes, that is where we are in disagreement.

unto Messiah - fulfilled in John 12:12-15.

4 days later cutoff, fulfilled - slain for the Passover, as the Lamb of God.

----------------------------------------------

In your opinion, does John 12:12-15 fulfill anything regarding unto Messiah ?

Douggg · May 26, 2023

Marilyn C said:
The beast, is symbolical of the nature of the GG and its leader. When he is wounded it is `as if...` not actually dying. And God certainly does not do that.

Marilyn, in the kjv, it does not say "as if". Instead "as it" were wounded to death. i.e the wound resulted in death.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

-------------------------------------

God will have strangers come against the revealed man of sin, who will kill him. Ezekiel 28:7-8

In Ezekiel 28: 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Although strangers will carry out the act to assassinate the revealed man of sin, it is God who slays him.

Marilyn C · May 27, 2023

Douggg said:
Marilyn, in the kjv, it does not say "as if". Instead "as it" were wounded to death. i.e the wound resulted in death.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

-------------------------------------

God will have strangers come against the revealed man of sin, who will kill him. Ezekiel 28:7-8

In Ezekiel 28: 9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Although strangers will carry out the act to assassinate the revealed man of sin, it is God who slays him.

Yes, the A/C will die but he will not rise again. `As it` were... still means the same, that it was a trick.

So, how about the 3 woes? Where do you see God places them in the trib?

Douggg · May 27, 2023

Marilyn C said:
Yes, the A/C will die but he will not rise again. `As it` were... still means the same, that it was a trick.

So, how about the 3 woes? Where do you see God places them in the trib?

The three woes are introduced by the final 3 trumpets. i.e. 5, 6, 7

In Revelation 11, just after day 1263.5 when the two witnesses exit the earth, trumpet 7 will sound, and God's process of dismantling Satan and his angels's mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great will begin and lasts a time/times, half time.

When Satan is cast down to earth in Revelation 12:12 - it says woe to the inhabiters of the sea and earth - because Satan will have great wrath, knowing his time is short. The third woe, the worst of the woes, because of Satan's evil lasts a time/times/half time.

Being cast down to earth, Satan is the falling angel in Revelation 9:1 given the keys to the bottomless pit, as the fifth angel sounds his trumpet. Sometime early in the second half of the seven years.

In his wrath, Satan opens the bottomless pit, and releases the flesh tormenting locust on humanity. That lasts for 5 months.

At the end of the seven years, the 200,000,000 size army of the kings of the east will march west, as a prelude to Armageddon, killing a third of mankind on its way, as the sixth angel sounds.

On the chart below, the little horn as the prince who shall come > becomes the Antichrist > then is revealed as the man of sin > then becomes the beast.

In the second woe, the kings of the East, their 200,000,000 man army will kill a third of mankind on their way to the middle east.

Douggg · May 27, 2023

Marilyn C said:
Yes, the A/C will die but he will not rise again. `As it` were... still means the same, that it was a trick.

Marilyn, the revealed man of sin will be assassinated. That he dies, and comes back to life is in the Revelation 17:8b part.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Marilyn C · May 27, 2023

Douggg said:
Marilyn, the revealed man of sin will be assassinated. That he dies, and comes back to life is in the Revelation 17:8b part.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:

and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Rev. 17: 8b refers to Satan who will possess the A/C.

Spiritual Jew · May 27, 2023

Douggg said:
Your view has the messiah cutoff 3 1/2 years after the 483 years, correct ?

Yes, I have stated that many times if you include the times that I've said he is cut off after the first 69 weeks.

Douggg said:
That insinuates that the messiah being cutoff would not be immediately after 483 years. Instead, extending out to 486.5 years.

So? You have Him being cut off after 483 years plus 4 days. What is your point?

Douggg said:
That's the whole point, I have been making.

I'm not seeing a point here. Try to communicate more clearly.

Douggg said:
On the last day of the 483 years the messiah arrives in Jerusalem, riding a donkey. 4 days later he is cutoff. Immediately after the 483 years.

Where does it say that the Messiah would be cut off immediately after the first 69 weeks/483 years? That is my point, which is that it does not specify how long after the first 69 weeks/483 years ends that He would be cut off. We all determine that based on other scripture that we think relates to this prophecy. I believe "unto Messiah" relates to Him first being revealed as the Messiah by John the Baptist and you believe it has to do with Him riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. That's the difference in our views of how long after the 69 weeks/483 years that He was cut off.

But, the other point that I've made is that since He was cut off AFTER the end of the first 69 weeks/483 years, then that places His death within the 70th week (within years 484 to 490). But, you just dismiss that as if there's something which indicates that there would be a gap after the end of the 69th week even though such a gap does not exist.

Spiritual Jew · May 27, 2023

Douggg said:
Yes, that is where we are in disagreement.

unto Messiah - fulfilled in John 12:12-15.

4 days later cutoff, fulfilled - slain for the Passover, as the Lamb of God.

----------------------------------------------

In your opinion, does John 12:12-15 fulfill anything regarding unto Messiah ?

No. I believe it is referring specifically to when He would first be revealed as the Messiah, which is described in John 1:29-51.

Douggg · May 27, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
So? You have Him being cut off after 483 years plus 4 days. What is your point?

My point is that the 70th week is yet to be fulfilled.

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Pre-tribulation.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Pre-tribulation.

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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