School faces lawsuit for making student remove 'only two genders' shirt: 'Censoring a 7th-grader'

Larniavc · May 26, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t deny that, the US Constitution doesn’t supersede the word of God.

I’m not being flippant when I ask this but isn’t that decidedly un-American?

Ceallaigh · May 26, 2023

Larnievc said:
You do realise that it is Christians who are taking offence? If you did not take offence there would be no problem.

It's not only Christians.

BNR32FAN · May 26, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
I go at it from a slightly different angle.

I'm not a fan of any form of childhood ideological indoctrination (whether it be liberal or conservative leaning, or whether it be religious or secular leaning)

Not necessarily because I think it's particularly bad for someone to want to promulgate their own values, I think everyone has that urge to make other people see it their way to some degree or another, but because I think it's highlights an insecurity.

That's not to say that people can't be persuaded to convert to/desist from any ideology when they're adults (there's people who engage in faith and ideology switching in their 30's and beyond).

But if the core strategy is "hook 'em while they're young and impressionable, so that they'll go along with everything I say because they see me as an authority figure and by the time they're older it'll be so ingrained in their mind, that they'll stick with it", operating on the premise of hoping that Aristotle was right about the "give me a child when they're 7, and I'll show you what they'll be like as an adult" theory, I think that's a short-sighted approach and one that projects a certain weakness or lack of confidence in one's own ability to make a strong case for their viewpoint.

Someone who's easy to convince is also going to be someone who's easy to "unconvince".

Perhaps it's just the phrasing, and maybe you didn't intend for it to come across that way, but referring to it as "the schools undoing what I did" comes across less like a sincere desire for intellectual honesty and a marketplace of ideas, and more like something someone would say if they were disgruntled because someone else's brainwashing over another person supplanted their own.

Abridged version:
Good ideas should be able to win over adults who've reached the age of reason without having to depend on "getting to them while they're young", and good ideas shouldn't require one to prevent the person from hearing all other ideas that may conflict. As soon as someone says "well, they shouldn't be able to tell them XYZ because if they hear that, then they may not agree with me anymore", they've already conceded a large chunk of the debate.

According to this logic then it’s irrelevant what anyone teaches them because they’ll figure it out eventually or they won’t. That’s basically what you’re saying here except as parents it is quite irresponsible of us to allow false information to go unchecked. We don’t want to allow our children to make mistakes because that they will regret because they were ill informed. The schools are restricted to teaching what they are allowed to teach because of the secular government, I’m trying to teach my children the moral laws of God because they supersede government laws. When the schools begin to teach things that are contrary to God’s laws that presents a problem.

ThatRobGuy · May 26, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
According to this logic then it’s irrelevant what anyone teaches them because they’ll figure it out eventually or they won’t. That’s basically what you’re saying here except as parents it is quite irresponsible of us to allow false information to go unchecked. We don’t want to allow our children to make mistakes because that they will regret because they were ill informed. The schools are restricted to teaching what they are allowed to teach because of the secular government, I’m trying to teach my children the moral laws of God because they supersede government laws. When the schools begin to teach things that are contrary to God’s laws that presents a problem.

I'm not saying it's totally irrelevant, I'm saying that if it's a marketplace of ideas, no ideas should be immune from being "checked".

Given how quick kids are to pick up and drop certain phases and fads, trying to impart your own values onto them would require one to basically keep them in a bubble where all other viewpoints and ideas would have to be suppressed.

What you were describing was basically the inverse of what gets schools the accusation of "indoctrination".

Where certain people want certain viewpoints presented, and all opposing ones squashed or not talked about.

ThatRobGuy · May 26, 2023

Bradskii said:
It's quite reasonable to look at the percentage of a population when comparing views. In fact, it's entirely necessary. You could say that 40% of Catholics believe X and 80% of atheists believe it, so twice as many atheists believe it as do Catholics. Which is true. But which doesn't give anywhere near an accurate account. Which is 0.3% v 9.2%. Those are accurate figures.

I would disagree, I think it's important to view it on a "per capita" basis, based on how the question was originally presented.

It was asked if there are any atheist/secular arguments against it. I pointed out that about a third of people in those groups clearly have some issues with some parts of it.

If viewing through the lens of "Atheists make up such a small portion of the US population, that it's insignificant regardless of whether 1% believe X or 100% believe X", then why even ask?

It's reminiscent of the flawed statistical analysis conservatives use when trying to "prove Chicago is the worst murder city", where they look at the grand total rather than adjusting for population sizes.

There's a difference between something being "a religious argument" and being "an argument that's made by a large religious group".

By that logic, "being against murder and theft" is a religious value and not a secular one. Since most people in this country are religious, and happen to hold those views (and will always outnumber the atheists)...

Perhaps a better way to look at it (in order to control for the fact that US atheists make up a small piece of the pie domestically), is to look at opinion polling in countries where Atheists make up a bigger piece of the pie?

Countries by Irreligion:

Granted, not sure how easy it would be to find polling data for that specific question for any of these countries, but if that data is available somewhere, it could be rather interesting. If it turns out some of these countries listed above had large percentages of people who asserted that there are only 2 genders, that would negate the notion that it's a "conservative religious position"

rambot · May 26, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
There were two chart topping songs about a transwoman in 1970 and 1972.

Drag queens have been around forever.

There's never been a huge issue over gender before.

Much less it all revolving around children.

Just all of a sudden these things have been been made into an LGBTQA+ battlefront.

Yes. A new boogeyman man was needed when roevwade got overturned.

Ceallaigh · May 26, 2023

rambot said:
Yes. A new boogeyman man was needed when roevwade got overturned.

Nah it was the sudden advent of men demanding to use women's restrooms, entering women's sports, and drag queens hanging out with kids etc that got it going.

rambot · May 26, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
Nah it was the sudden advent of men demanding to use women's restrooms, entering women's sports, and drag queens hanging out with kids etc that got it going.

DQSH has existed for almost decade.
Trans folks doing the same for quite a while.

Everything got turned up to 11 in the last year or two.

I welcome you to do a search history here on CF. You'll see when this stuff became and issue and it WASN'T when the "theys" started doing something different.

Merrill · May 26, 2023

Bradskii said:
Hyperbole does your position no favours.

it isn't hyperbole:

1. The Internet is awash with obscenity/inappropriate contentography, and a lot of it involves human-trafficking
2. Transgenderism in part, comes from depictions of "lady boys", transexuals, and masculine lesbians as depicted by these inappropriate contentography sites, and discussed on special-interest forums. Kids grow up seeing this stuff, and they are influence.
3. The LGBT community has consistently promoted promiscuity and kink for decades. Gay pride parades are pretty shocking. Gay bath houses spread AIDS in the 70s and 80s, and a lot of people died.

this is all anti-civilizational, and anti-Christian

Belk · May 26, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
According to this logic then it’s irrelevant what anyone teaches them because they’ll figure it out eventually or they won’t. That’s basically what you’re saying here except as parents it is quite irresponsible of us to allow false information to go unchecked. We don’t want to allow our children to make mistakes because that they will regret because they were ill informed. The schools are restricted to teaching what they are allowed to teach because of the secular government, I’m trying to teach my children the moral laws of God because they supersede government laws. When the schools begin to teach things that are contrary to God’s laws that presents a problem.

Should we teach the earth is round? Some claim that is against the bible. How about teaching it is OK to eat pork? Contradicted by other religions. Only allowing what we teach on it being agreeable to religious sensibilities is a mine field of problems.

KCfromNC · May 26, 2023

Ordinary Christian said:
There's never been a huge issue over gender before.

Much less it all revolving around children.

Just all of a sudden these things have been been made into an LGBTQA+ battlefront.

Yep. Before the election, the GOP candidates were promising all sorts of action on issues important to voters - the economy, inflation, health care, infrastructure, and so on.

After they were elected we get instead them looking for nude pictures of the president's family and lots of manufactured outrage about trans people.

Almost as if all of the stuff they were promising during the campaign was a bunch of hot air, and all they really have to offer is nonsense to distract from their inability to govern. Hopefully voters won't fall for it again next time around.

rjs330 · May 26, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
Abridged version:
Good ideas should be able to win over adults who've reached the age of reason without having to depend on "getting to them while they're young", and good ideas shouldn't require one to prevent the person from hearing all other ideas that may conflict. As soon as someone says "well, they shouldn't be able to tell them XYZ because if they hear that, then they may not agree with me anymore", they've already conceded a large chunk of the debate.

I agree. That's why teachers shouldn't be allowed to do that. Your reasoning is sound. That's exactly why they want this is schools. So they can get em while they are young. It's precisely why we have moved away from simply standard education into indoctrination. I teach my kids the values that I want to instill in them. Schools should stay far away from that. Once their adults, as you say, then people can win them over with a good argument. Kids are just sponges and will listen to anyone with authority. And having a teacher trying to instill values into their undeveloped brains that are conflicting with the values that I want to instill in them is confusing to them.

They are not prepared for a debate. So no they should not be able to tell kids XYZ if I don't want them to. When the kids are adults they can start to debate the issues.

rjs330 · May 26, 2023

rambot said:
You are misguided if you think it is the "school teachings" doing that.

Schools teach facts about the topics in the subject areas. Facts based on research knowledge and hundreds of thousands of hours of study.

Some Christians, unfortunately, set up their cihldren's existence in the world as "you gotta fight the world all the time because they are always wrong and trying to get you to sin".

That's not going to help them. Because the world, truly is NOT trying to find them and not "trying to get them to sin". The world, generally, is ambivalent to our faith.

There can be a LOT of reasons why kids stop believing but very very few of those reasons have anything to do with any kind of explicit instruction at school.

Yes schools are doing that. You've already admitted in this board that you indoctrinate kids and are for it. No they do not just teach facts. Not anymore.

rjs330 · May 26, 2023

Bradskii said:
That's what reasonable people do.

Reasonable people don't create their own problems and then expect everyone else to come up with a solution for it.

rjs330 · May 26, 2023

Bradskii said:
I'm all for not making a blanket rule for situations that have umpteen variables. If a transgender male is OK to compete against males then the same applies to transgender women, all things being equal. But two examples are almost certainly not equal. So individual solutions would be needed for individual problems. Just like in a bathroom situation.

There aren't umpteen variables. What's the umpteen variables for men competing against women in women's sports? I'd like to hear them.

Why are you so against women having their own spaces?

Ceallaigh · May 26, 2023

rambot said:
DQSH has existed for almost decade.
Trans folks doing the same for quite a while.

Everything got turned up to 11 in the last year or two.

I welcome you to do a search history here on CF. You'll see when this stuff became and issue and it WASN'T when the "theys" started doing something different.

I think it's likely it came to the forefront because they started pushing the envelope too far.

rjs330 · May 26, 2023

Belk said:
Should we teach the earth is round? Some claim that is against the bible. How about teaching it is OK to eat pork? Contradicted by other religions. Only allowing what we teach on it being agreeable to religious sensibilities is a mine field of problems.

You make the point for us. No schools should not be teaching things like that because that's for the parents to do. The schools should stay out of it. That's the point. No one is asking or demanding the schools teach a specific religious doctrine. We are telling the schools they should stay out of indoctrination of children.

rjs330 · May 26, 2023

KCfromNC said:
Yep. Before the election, the GOP candidates were promising all sorts of action on issues important to voters - the economy, inflation, health care, infrastructure, and so on.

After they were elected we get instead them looking for nude pictures of the president's family and lots of manufactured outrage about trans people.

Almost as if all of the stuff they were promising during the campaign was a bunch of hot air, and all they really have to offer is nonsense to distract from their inability to govern. Hopefully voters won't fall for it again next time around.

Actually that's false. Much of the election this time around was based on this indoctrination issue. People figured out what was going on and they wanted it stopped. That was a huge part of it.

The conservatives have moved into the values sphere now. We've finally said, we aren't going to abandon these issues to the Democrats anymore. It's a new kind of conservative you are facing now. One that cares about it all.

BNR32FAN · May 26, 2023

Belk said:
Should we teach the earth is round? Some claim that is against the bible. How about teaching it is OK to eat pork? Contradicted by other religions. Only allowing what we teach on it being agreeable to religious sensibilities is a mine field of problems.

Not if it derives from the apostolic church.

rjs330 · May 26, 2023

Bradskii said:
So that's 10% on a random day. Any about gambling? Idolatry? Drinking? Gambling? Lying? Theft? Nup, just another few threads about sex.

I would think you understand that people talk about things that are really relevant to the day at hand. I don't think you'd find anyone promoting those subjects as really good things. Maybe with the exception of drinking. But despite the dangers of drinking we already had the trial of making it illegal and settled on age limits. I don't think you find anyone supporting or defending drunk driving or alcoholism.

We also dont have adults trying to get kids to become alcoholics or to become gamblers, liars or thieves and extolling the virtues of such.

School faces lawsuit for making student remove 'only two genders' shirt: 'Censoring a 7th-grader'

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