Muslims claim neither Jesus nor the New Testament ever claim Jesus as God- are they correct?

boughtwithaprice · May 18, 2023

Muslims fail to note that God’s primary or should I say one of His primary attributes is humility. He did not come to Earth and demand homage. He was born in a cave and placed in a feeding trough (manger). He subjected Himself to His human parents to uphold His own command to honor our mother and father. He submitted Himself to baptism, though he committed no sin and needed no repentance.
When Muslims (and Jehovah’s witnesses) read the New Testament and take note of His self deprecatory language, “the Father is greater than I”, “not my will but thine be done”, they try to say that Jesus is separate and lower than God, but they fail to note that when asked “show is the Father”, He rebukes the Apostle and says whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. They confuse meekness with weakness.
Humility is the greatest sign of absolute power and wealth. Pride exalts one over others and demands service. It is as if the prideful being needs the service of others to boost his position. A humble man does not need the service of others to exalt himself. He lives to serve and that brings him joy. God is self sufficient, and does not need our worship or service. He lives unto Himself and chooses to serve by example. That is awe inspiring, as well as a show of incredible strength, and if we choose our free will to love Him and follow Him, He grants us a share in the beatific vision.
Satan tells us to pursue vain glory because he has no existence unto himself. He derives pride and power from those that choose to follow him. He is a created being, and deserves no glory or honor, because he does not exist unto himself. All he has came from someone else.
Christ came to Earth in poverty because wealth and money and gold are not riches unto themselves. They only possess power by what people are willing to do for them. God, the only one that exists unto Himself, does not need to use an inferior commodity to entice people to serve Him. We love Him for who He is, and His commandments are not burdensome, they are glorious.
Satan expected God to come to Earth like a great superstar, commanding respect due to raw power. Jesus did not do that because He does not need to do that. He made everything, doesn’t need money. He has existed for eternity, does not need our love to live, but we need His for our existence which is by every word that comes from the mouth of God.

Lukaris · May 18, 2023

It might also be instructive to tell that since they believe Jesus Christ is a prophet, the Lord testified that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet. John was the last prophet of divine revelation so the Lord Jesus Christ is more than a prophet.

They often accuse Christians & Jews of corruption of scripture but the what I posted about the Lord’s testimony of John the Baptist is clear in Matthew 11:7-19. It is uncorrupted scripture centuries before the life of their claimed prophet.

WarriorAngel · May 18, 2023

1. They're Muslim.
They have no accurate knowledge or teaching on Jesus.
Zero. [and their leader came in 622 AD to start something off the Nestorians a known heresy]
2. They're Muslim, they cannot speak for what the Lord taught His Apostles.
3. They're Muslim. They have no knowledge of the fullness of the Bible.
4. They're Muslim and they definitely disregard a loving God, a Good God and a compassionate God.
5. They're Muslim.
Suffice to stop there.

Der Alte · May 21, 2023

JimR-OCDS said:
Heck, most Muslims don't know that their prophet Mohammed, married a 9 year old girl and
had sexual relations with her.
Also, Muslims will always point at the Crusades as to how evil the Christians were to Muslims.
However, they rarely if ever admit to the Muslims invading Spain and being just 200 miles outside
of Paris in the ninth century. This was 100 years before the first Crusade was called for. Their
willful ignorance of this is obvious.
Also ask Muslims what their response would be if the US took Mecca and prohibited Islamic
pilgrimages to that city? They'll tell you that it would mean all out war. Point out that this is
what happened when the first Crusades were called for. Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land
were prohibited and Muslims were destroying Jewish and Christian Holy sites. Another piece of
history that Muslims ignore or try to change.

In the early 90s I was working for the Govt. and transferred from the SF bay area to Orange county 19 miles south of Disney land. The church I joined had at one time hosted an Arabic Christian congregation. They had left a crate of Arabic Bibles and other printed Christian material. A medical missionary couple visited our church on a fund-raising tour. I mentioned the Bibles and other material to them, they were overjoyed. They said that they could not keep enough Bibles on hand. They had to smuggle the Bibles in hidden in other materials. The Muslims would sneak up to their facility at night asking for "The book" which it is called in the Quran. They said that when the Muslims became Christians, they would construct a makeshift baptismal on the roof or go out in the desert to a oasis or stream and post guards to baptize them. Becoming Christians was a capital offense for Muslims.

boughtwithaprice · May 21, 2023

Der Alte said:
In the early 90s I was working for the Govt. and transferred from the SF bay area to Orange county 19 miles south of Disney land. The church I joined had at one time hosted an Arabic Christian congregation. They had left a crate of Arabic Bibles and other printed Christian material. A medical missionary couple visited our church on a fund-raising tour. I mentioned the Bibles and other material to them, they were overjoyed. They said that they could not keep enough Bibles on hand. They had to smuggle the Bibles in hidden in other materials. The Muslims would sneak up to their facility at night asking for "The book" which it is called in the Quran. They said that when the Muslims became Christians, they would construct a makeshift baptismal on the roof or go out in the desert to a oasis or stream and post guards to baptize them. Becoming Christians was a capital offense for Muslims.

Muslims claim that God has no children, so their God has never been to Earth nor took human form. This makes God separate from us and leaves one to wonder why we are created? Are we to be but toys and playthings for God?
We know that is not true. The Lord God humbled Himself and became an embryo, then was born of a woman, born in poverty in a cave and placed in a manger. He was circumcised though he wrote the law as He is the Word and need not mark His flesh. He subjected Himself to His parents as to obey His own command to honor your father and mother. He was baptized by John, though He committed no sin and needed no repentance. He began His ministry at the request of His mother. He displayed mighty works to prove He is God, yet did not wish to be made king. He allowed Himself to be condemned to death though He committed no wrong, nor spoken any falsehood. His death allows us to repent and be given eternal life with God in Heaven. His Holy Spirit empowers us to obey God’s commands.
All of this shows that He is God. His poverty shows that He needs nothing from the world. His humility shows that He needs not our worship. His obedience shows that He is not a tyrant and His commands are not burdensome. His death shows that He Ioves us and is not constrained by obligation. Should we not fall down in awe of so great a savior?

Many Muslim people long to hear of so great a savior rather than a distant being who commands obey or die at the point of a sword. There is no other God like Jesus

Sketcher · May 22, 2023

JosephZ said:
Actually they do, and they also look at Muhammad's marriage to Ayesha through a historical lens. It was nothing out of the ordinary for the time in history which the marriage took place. Child marriage was common in many cultures and religions in the 6th century; this included followers of Judaism and Christianity.

As young as 9? In the Roman Empire it was illegal to marry a girl younger than 12.

JosephZ · May 22, 2023

Sketcher said:
As young as 9? In the Roman Empire it was illegal to marry a girl younger than 12.

For Roman girls the legal minimum age at marriage was 12; but the law provided no sanctions and was contravened... Even if pre-pubertal marriages were regarded by some as deviant, they were not exceptional and were condoned.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2173291

Sword of the Lord · May 22, 2023

Someone really seems to want Islamic child brides normalized

boughtwithaprice · May 22, 2023

Sword of the Lord said:
Someone really seems to want Islamic child brides normalized

The Catholic Church teaches that a girl may marry at 14 and a boy at 16. Modern society teaches us to not marry until our 30s. Indulge in the world and then settle down. This removes people from their prime fertility years and birth rates plummet as we see in the west.
I do not advocate that old men marry children, but we need to rethink the purpose of marriage. If the goal is to have children, why wait till later years of infertility? We know that the Marxist goal is to decimate the family and by large part they are succeeding. Young girls have abortions, older women cry because they have no children.
Welcome to the brave new world

Ayel Lee · May 22, 2023

Muslims make a lot of claims that they cannot prove.

JosephZ · May 22, 2023

Sword of the Lord said:
Someone really seems to want Islamic child brides normalized

As I said earlier in the thread, while we see child marriage as socially unacceptable today, it wasn't viewed that way in 632. Providing historical facts about child marriage in no way equates to condoning or wanting to nomalize the practice. We don't even have to look back as far as the 7th century to find evidence of child marriages taking place in Jewish and Christian cultures.

David Sassoon noted in his book entitled Masa Bavel [ Travel in Babylon] (1910), that in earlier days, girls got married at the age of nine and boys at fifteen. Benjamin the Second, who visited Baghdad in 1849, reported the custom of marrying daughters at age eight to ten, and sons age eighteen to twenty. He added that the government issued a decree setting up a three-tier system for the age of marriage: a) daughters of the elite class should not marry before the age of ten, b) daughters of the middle class cannot marry before they reach the age of eleven, and c) daughters of the poor cannot marry before they reach the age of twelve. The lower the economic level of the family the higher the marriage age. He goes on to explain: “And if the maiden does not get married until the age of fifteen she has no hope of marriage, because she would be considered an old maid... also a widow is likely to remain without a man until she dies...” It was further disclosed to him: “there are about 400-500 Jewish widows in the city of Baghdad with no hope of getting remarried...”

Twenty years later, in 1868, Rabbi Shlomo Huchein criticised this unacceptable custom of marrying “the daughters of the city at the age of ten, and sometime at the age of eight or nine; therefore, their match is not successful." Jacob Obermayer treated this matter in 1876: “A son of fifteen years old and a virgin of eleven or twelve cannot marry with love and desire, but forced into the marriage by their parents.”

This condition worried the community; in 1894, its leaders reversed the rules. They instituted many new regulations, of which most the important were that a girl should not get married before she reached the age of sixteen. The sum of the dowry and the expenses of the marriage ceremony were also limited. Anyone who broke these regulations was not able to get married or get a ketubah [a marriage certificate], and a groom would not be called to read from the Torah.

At the end of the nineteenth century, despite these regulations, families still married their daughters at the age of twelve and thirteen. On the eve of World War I, the situation changed somewhat for the better when the legal age for marriage was raised to fifteen, with the consent of the parents, who set the amount of the dowry.

After the war this situation improved as Jewish society became liberalized and education became more universal, particularly for girls. The average age of marriage was raised to eighteen.

View of Changes in the Social Status of Urban Jewish Women in Iraq as the Nineteenth Century Turned

According to William of Tyre, Agnes was only eight on her arrival at Constantinople, while Alexius was thirteen; in fact Alexius was born on 14 September 1169. Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine. Agnes's age, then, was not unusual, especially as it was customary for young engaged couples in Constantinople to be brought up together in the house of the socially superior partner.

Roman Emperors DIR Agnes of France

In 1298, as a result of a huge Byzantine military defeat, Emperor Andronikos II Palaiologos promised a marriage alliance of his 5-year-old daughter Symonis to the Serbian ruler King Milutin. The Orthodox Diocese in Constantinople opposed the marriage because of the king’s previous marriages and the vast age difference, but the Byzantine Emperor was determined to do so. In late 1298, he sent his trusted minister Theodore Metochites to Serbia to conduct the negotiations. On his part, King Milutin too was eager to accept this marriage and divorced his wife, Anna Terter. Princess Symonis [Age 6] and King Milutin’s [Age 41] marriage was celebrated in Thessalonica in the springtime of 1299, and the couple departed for Serbia.

Stefan Uroš II Milutin Nemanjić (1282–1321) | Encyclopedia MDPI

Encyclopedia is a user-generated content hub aiming to provide a comprehensive record for scientific developments. All content free to post, read, share and reuse.

encyclopedia.pub

Having a better understanding of history can make us better witnesses. For example, a Christian who tries to convince a Muslim that their prophet Muhammad was a pedophile because of his marriage to Ayesha is going to be seen as both ignorant of history and a hypocrite. This approach will also shut the door on any possibility of this Christian sharing the gospel with that Muslim in the future.

JimR-OCDS · May 22, 2023

Sketcher said:
As young as 9? In the Roman Empire it was illegal to marry a girl younger than 12.

The Roman Empire was not the Christian Church.

Also, Islam was founded long after the Roman Empire ended.

JimR-OCDS · May 22, 2023

JosephZ said:
As I said earlier in the thread, while we see child marriage as socially unacceptable today, it wasn't viewed that way in 632. Providing historical facts about child marriage in no way equates to condoning or wanting to nomalize the practice. We don't even have to look back as far as the 7th century to find evidence of child marriages taking place in Jewish and Christian cultures.

David Sassoon noted in his book entitled Masa Bavel [ Travel in Babylon] (1910), that in earlier days, girls got married at the age of nine and boys at fifteen. Benjamin the Second, who visited Baghdad in 1849, reported the custom of marrying daughters at age eight to ten, and sons age eighteen to twenty. He added that the government issued a decree setting up a three-tier system for the age of marriage: a) daughters of the elite class should not marry before the age of ten, b) daughters of the middle class cannot marry before they reach the age of eleven, and c) daughters of the poor cannot marry before they reach the age of twelve. The lower the economic level of the family the higher the marriage age. He goes on to explain: “And if the maiden does not get married until the age of fifteen she has no hope of marriage, because she would be considered an old maid... also a widow is likely to remain without a man until she dies...” It was further disclosed to him: “there are about 400-500 Jewish widows in the city of Baghdad with no hope of getting remarried...”

Twenty years later, in 1868, Rabbi Shlomo Huchein criticised this unacceptable custom of marrying “the daughters of the city at the age of ten, and sometime at the age of eight or nine; therefore, their match is not successful." Jacob Obermayer treated this matter in 1876: “A son of fifteen years old and a virgin of eleven or twelve cannot marry with love and desire, but forced into the marriage by their parents.”

This condition worried the community; in 1894, its leaders reversed the rules. They instituted many new regulations, of which most the important were that a girl should not get married before she reached the age of sixteen. The sum of the dowry and the expenses of the marriage ceremony were also limited. Anyone who broke these regulations was not able to get married or get a ketubah [a marriage certificate], and a groom would not be called to read from the Torah.

At the end of the nineteenth century, despite these regulations, families still married their daughters at the age of twelve and thirteen. On the eve of World War I, the situation changed somewhat for the better when the legal age for marriage was raised to fifteen, with the consent of the parents, who set the amount of the dowry.

After the war this situation improved as Jewish society became liberalized and education became more universal, particularly for girls. The average age of marriage was raised to eighteen.

View of Changes in the Social Status of Urban Jewish Women in Iraq as the Nineteenth Century Turned

According to William of Tyre, Agnes was only eight on her arrival at Constantinople, while Alexius was thirteen; in fact Alexius was born on 14 September 1169. Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century. Irene Ducaena, wife of Alexius I Comnenus, was twelve at her marriage, and empress before she was fifteen; the Byzantine princess Theodora, Manuel's niece, was in her thirteenth year when she married Baldwin III of Jerusalem; and Margaret-Maria of Hungary married Isaac II Angelus at the age of nine. Agnes's age, then, was not unusual, especially as it was customary for young engaged couples in Constantinople to be brought up together in the house of the socially superior partner.

Roman Emperors DIR Agnes of France

In 1298, as a result of a huge Byzantine military defeat, Emperor Andronikos II Palaiologos promised a marriage alliance of his 5-year-old daughter Symonis to the Serbian ruler King Milutin. The Orthodox Diocese in Constantinople opposed the marriage because of the king’s previous marriages and the vast age difference, but the Byzantine Emperor was determined to do so. In late 1298, he sent his trusted minister Theodore Metochites to Serbia to conduct the negotiations. On his part, King Milutin too was eager to accept this marriage and divorced his wife, Anna Terter. Princess Symonis [Age 6] and King Milutin’s [Age 41] marriage was celebrated in Thessalonica in the springtime of 1299, and the couple departed for Serbia.

Stefan Uroš II Milutin Nemanjić (1282–1321) | Encyclopedia MDPI

Encyclopedia is a user-generated content hub aiming to provide a comprehensive record for scientific developments. All content free to post, read, share and reuse.

encyclopedia.pub

Having a better understanding of history can make us better witnesses. For example, a Christian who tries to convince a Muslim that their prophet Muhammad was a pedophile because of his marriage to Ayesha is going to be seen as both ignorant of history and a hypocrite. This approach will also shut the door on any possibility of this Christian sharing the gospel with that Muslim in the future.

Betrothal was not marriage and the couple did not consummate the marriage until the girl was older. Girls were
sometimes promised in an arraigned marriage to an older man, but the marriage took place when she was older.
She was young by today's standards, but not nine years of age.

Also, the Church would not marry a nine year old girl.

Our Blessed Mother is believed to have been 16 years of age when she was betrothed to Joseph. It was believed
that Joseph was in his late 20's or early 30's.

It was common that the husband was older and established in life where he could support a wife and children.

JosephZ · May 22, 2023

JimR-OCDS said:
Betrothal was not marriage and the couple did not consummate the marriage until the girl was older.

This is true, however; marriages were often consummated after the girls first menustration which would occur on average anywhere from age 9 to 14.

JimR-OCDS said:
Also, the Church would not marry a nine year old girl.

Marriage, until well into the Middle Ages, had little to do with religion and wasn't required to take place in the church or be officiated by a priest.

JimR-OCDS · May 23, 2023

JosephZ said:
This is true, however; marriages were often consummated after the girls first menustration which would occur on average anywhere from age 9 to 14.

Marriage, until well into the Middle Ages, had little to do with religion and wasn't required to take place in the church or be officiated by a priest.

Marriage had to do with religion going back to Jewish weddings. Joseph and Mary were betrothed and married
in a religious ceremony of the time.

boughtwithaprice · May 23, 2023

JosephZ said:
This is true, however; marriages were often consummated after the girls first menustration which would occur on average anywhere from age 9 to 14.

Marriage, until well into the Middle Ages, had little to do with religion and wasn't required to take place in the church or be officiated by a priest.

References? Citations ?

During the Middle Ages which are referred to as the Dark Ages, not out of truth, but a jab at the Catholic Church. Prior to Martin Luther claiming separation of church and state, the secular authorities were ruled by the Church as a moral authority. Kings and Queens were coronated by the Bishop and deferred to the Pope until Henry VIII broke away.
I would need to see references that marriage was not part of the Church at that time. The Church taught natural law and secular authorities did not make laws contrary to the natural law
Now we have laws based on feelings and not reason which is why there is so much death and licentiousness

JosephZ · May 23, 2023

JimR-OCDS said:
Marriage had to do with religion going back to Jewish weddings. Joseph and Mary were betrothed and married
in a religious ceremony of the time.

boughtwithaprice said:
References? Citations ?

During the Middle Ages which are referred to as the Dark Ages, not out of truth, but a jab at the Catholic Church. Prior to Martin Luther claiming separation of church and state, the secular authorities were ruled by the Church as a moral authority. Kings and Queens were coronated by the Bishop and deferred to the Pope until Henry VIII broke away.
I would need to see references that marriage was not part of the Church at that time. The Church taught natural law and secular authorities did not make laws contrary to the natural law
Now we have laws based on feelings and not reason which is why there is so much death and licentiousness

I think there's been a misunderstanding as to what I was saying when I said marriage had little to do with religion well into the Middle Ages. What I meant is that in the past, marriages were carried out more as a necessity than out of love and/or companionship. It was usually a contractual arrangement between parents, clans, or tribes to form a strategic alliance of some sort. Some examples would be to maintain pure blood lines, legitimize children, determine heirs, protect property rights, maintain or bring about peace, etc. Any religious ceremonies that would have taken place would have only been held by those who could afford them and only as a formality. The marriage was legally binding at the time of being betrothed, regardless of age or whether or not a religious ceremony was performed.

For much of the history of the Catholic Church, no specific ritual was therefore prescribed for celebrating a marriage – at least not until the late medieval period: "Marriage vows did not have to be exchanged in a church, nor was a priest's presence required. A couple could exchange consent anywhere, anytime."

Marriage, Sex, and Civic Culture in Late Medieval London

Awarded honorable mention for the 2007 Wallace K. Ferguson Prize sponsored by the Canadian Historical AssociationHow were marital and sexual relationships woven into the fabric of late medieval society, and what form did these relationships take? Using extensive documentary evidence from both...

books.google.com

Chrystal-J · May 23, 2023

Concerning the OP, the bible in the New Testament has people worshipping Jesus--something only reserved for God.
Example:

Matthew 28:9

And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

In this passage, the angels said you must worship God alone.

Revelation 19:10

Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Sword of the Lord · May 23, 2023

A violent group of murderers, pedophiles, and mutilators, whose ideology came into existence 600 years after Christ, does not get to interpret the Bible.

RileyG · May 23, 2023

Ayel Lee said:
Muslims make a lot of claims that they cannot prove.

This is true.

Muslims claim neither Jesus nor the New Testament ever claim Jesus as God- are they correct?

Legend

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I close my eyes and see you smile

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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The one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 28:9​

Revelation 19:10​

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