Necessity of evil

Neutral Observer said:

I realized this from the get-go, and I've tried to avoid it, but dang, why don't the powers that be reopen the philosophy forum, then we wouldn't be tempted to interject philosophy into inappropriate threads.

That being said I'll cease and desist. If I've piqued anybody's curiosity that was my intent, and now I'm content to leave it at that.

Interesting subject, but you're right, it's completely off topic.

Ciao!!

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For what it's worth, I think it has everything to do with the OP, but by a round-about way. So....oh well.

VCR-2000 said:

So a large part of what makes us human is that we can feel sadness, anger, happiness, and that imperfections create challenges and motivations for us. On the other hand, I acknowledge that there is a lot of evil and sin that is really unnecessary like mass man-made catastrophe or genocide. God even doesn't want to intervene with the free will of people to commit mass crime or genocide, but the average person below isn't exactly "free" to escape from that.

Is it also plausible for God to be able to or will to stop the free will of a few people (usually a few rich people in very high places that are not good people) while not interfering with the free will of the rest of his individuals? That would be a nicer world to live in.

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God can and does influence, "tweak", or inform people's wills, always aimed at the ultimate advancement of His kingdom in some manner or another. Paul's road to Damascus experience was an obvious and dramatic such case. At the same time He's using their strengths and weaknesses and individuality and choices in these situations.

The purpose of evil is to help finally drive us to the good, to develop a hunger and thirst in us for truth and righteousness in a world that often has little value for either. Then when the He knocks on our door we're all the more ready to answer. God allows the evil that results from the abuse of a created being's free will to ultimately drive us to freely shun that evil and choose the good instead. The knowledge of good and evil has a purpose even if the better choice would've been to never feed off of that fruit to begin with. But by knowing it we learn the hard way what God already knows, that evil should have no place- it's only a distraction from or a lessening of the goodness that's innate in creation due to the Creator's infinite goodness.

VCR-2000 said:

So a large part of what makes us human is that we can feel sadness, anger, happiness, and that imperfections create challenges and motivations for us. On the other hand, I acknowledge that there is a lot of evil and sin that is really unnecessary like mass man-made catastrophe or genocide. God even doesn't want to intervene with the free will of people to commit mass crime or genocide, but the average person below isn't exactly "free" to escape from that.

Is it also plausible for God to be able to or will to stop the free will of a few people (usually a few rich people in very high places that are not good people) while not interfering with the free will of the rest of his individuals? That would be a nicer world to live in.

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Sin is really about self will dictating terms and evil is self will run riot. We can choose to accept God and hand our will over to him and then it is no longer about pleasing self but pleasing God.

Today people want to say there is no truth about sin and evil in the world but everything is about feelings. The feelings of the inedividual become the sole measure of reality. Love is a feeling and has no duty to honor and self fullfillment is all that matters, kids are not bad just misunderstood and calling out the sin in others is seen as being judgemental and hateful.

The best way Satan can fool the world is by making people think there is no such thing as sin, evil and Satan.

stevevw said:

We can choose to accept God and hand our will over to him and then it is no longer about pleasing self but pleasing God.

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If this were true then I would reject God on principle alone. Fortunately I think the above statement is completely wrong.

Neutral Observer said:

If this were true then I would reject God on principle alone. Fortunately I think the above statement is completely wrong.

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I am not sure what you mean.

VCR-2000 said:

It seems like a contradiction for God to give us free will then proscribe a certain will for us. I sympathize with your feeling of lack of autonomy.

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I wish someone could explain it satisfactorily to me, why lack of autonomy is a problem.

This kind of reminds me of the atheistic notion that atheism is the default —as though theism intrudes upon the plain of atheism. But there is no plain of atheism, if God exists. HE is the default.

God is the default, the only "brute fact". Whether, in the creature, "free will", or "lack of autonomy" —both are a result of his existence and of his decree or act of creation. Neither exists apart from him, neither exists in a vacuum. Why the problem, then? It is rather obviously a logical impossibility that a creature can possess absolute autonomy, to any degree the creature may imagine itself to possess.

Mark Quayle said:

I wish someone could explain it satisfactorily to me, why lack of autonomy is a problem.

This kind of reminds me of the atheistic notion that atheism is the default —as though theism intrudes upon the plain of atheism. But there is no plain of atheism, if God exists. HE is the default.

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I think its the other way around, humans are natural born believers in divine concepts. It comes natural and doesn't need to be indoctrinated. Rather atheisism and natralistic thinking has to be taught and indoctrinated into us. I think humans have the knowledge of God but this can be expressed in different ways. But all have common aspects such as a creator, a soul, life after death including consciousness beyond brain and moral accountability.

Mark Quayle said:

God is the default, the only "brute fact". Whether, in the creature, "free will", or "lack of autonomy" —both are a result of his existence and of his decree or act of creation. Neither exists apart from him, neither exists in a vacuum. Why the problem, then? It is rather obviously a logical impossibility that a creature can possess absolute autonomy, to any degree the creature may imagine itself to possess.

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Lord Acton said "Freedom is not the ability to do what we like when we like but freedom to do what we ought to do". Its a paradox but true freedom comes with sacrifice. Paul says we are slaves to sin. Its like an addiction where you can't help but do what you know you ought not do and theres no control. But then when you give in, give up doing it your way and trust in God or whatever Higher power you have you gain true freedom.

I think modern society is so focused on ensuring everyones autonomy and freedom that we have bound ourselves up in ever increasing rules and regulations.

zippy2006 said:

From a Christian perspective it is surely true that God intervenes to lessen evil.

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I would have thought that God could eliminate it altogether if he wanted to.

Kylie said:

I would have thought that God could eliminate it altogether if he wanted to.

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Perhaps he could, in one way or another. Does that invalidate my claim, oh "defeater of illogic"?

stevevw said:

I am not sure what you mean.

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I find the whole idea of the following to be completely and totally ridiculous.

stevevw said:

We can choose to accept God and hand our will over to him and then it is no longer about pleasing self but pleasing God.

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I find it to be ridiculous for two reasons.

So what are you supposed to do?

Micah 6:8 “He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?”

That's it. Do justly and love mercy.

And the humbly part? That's the part where you realize that for all of your good intentions, the outcome, for better or worse is always up to God... lest any man should boast.

You do you, and let God do God.

God gave you free will, that wasn't a mistake. He doesn't want you to give it back, He wants you to use it. Sure you'll screw it up, but He already knew that.

Neutral Observer said:

God doesn't want you to hand your will over to Him. He wants you to be you... whether that involves your being stupid, or selfish, or indifferent, or amazingly wonderful, it doesn't matter, God wants you to be you.

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Lol. No.

Neutral Observer said:

I find the whole idea of the following to be completely and totally ridiculous.



I find it to be ridiculous for two reasons.

1. God doesn't want you to hand your will over to Him. He wants you to be you... whether that involves your being stupid, or selfish, or indifferent, or amazingly wonderful, it doesn't matter, God wants you to be you. What... do you think that He's trying to make a Mini-Me? He was trying to make exactly what He got... you. God doesn't want your best interpretation of His own will, He wants the best interpretation of your will.​

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What you are talking about I think is more to do with personality about who you are as a person. Thats different to 'Will' which is more about a choice about what you 'will' do in certain situations. Having a personality that is humourous doesn't involve 'will' as thats the type of person you are.

But choosing a path that leads a certain way involves your 'will'. As humans we can make choices that make a difference whether that be good or bad. In fact I believe that learning and choosing to do Gods will brings out the best version of you as a person.

Neutral Observer said:

2. 99.9% of the time you have absolutely no idea what God's will is anyway. And even when you think you do you're probably going to screw it up, so why worry about doing what God never expected you to do in the first place. Don't try to be God... just be you.​

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I think we can deny or ignore Gods will but I think a lot of the time and certainly not 1% of the time we can know Gods will. I think often we percieve its not going to be the best for us and we rationalize what we think is best especially when it comes money. Money can be a motivator for choosing a particular path over others even to the point of willfully choosing to do something immoral or not good for others.

I think we can learn from that and come to understand what Gods "Will" is for us. For example regarding a career or work. Sometimes those choices can be dictated by circumstances but I think there is even a choice about whether we will not want to even work in the first place to support yourself or others or choosing to do something constructive and positive that will help yourself and others.

Neutral Observer said:

So what are you supposed to do?

Micah 6:8 “He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?”

That's it. Do justly and love mercy.

And the humbly part? That's the part where you realize that for all of your good intentions, the outcome, for better or worse is always up to God... lest any man should boast.

You do you, and let God do God.

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Notice how Micah says God has shown us what is good which is to be just and merciful as opposed being unjust and showing no mercy. Thats a choice of 'will' which way we will act. I think Paul best descibes that its a spiritual battle as well and not just about our physical or psychological needs and wants. Thats why Paul says "I do what I know I ought not do".

So we are slaves to sin and cannot break this chain without God, without the renewal of our minds and bodies being born again of the spirit. Then we have true freedom because we have overcome that carnal nature that causes us to do things that are not best for us as far as being the best we can possibly be.

Neutral Observer said:

God gave you free will, that wasn't a mistake. He doesn't want you to give it back, He wants you to use it. Sure you'll screw it up, but He already knew that.

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I am not saying God denies us our free will. Thats an integral part of being conscious beings able to understand how we influence the world. Saying God already knew we would screw up sort of implies our choices don't matter when I think they do. We are faced with choices all the time and we can also be selfish, greedy, lustful, proud which can influence our choice.

I know that was the case for me. But God will requires us to live to a higher standard but we can't do it on our own so we need to trust in the Potter as we are the clay.

stevevw said:

I think modern society is so focused on ensuring everyones autonomy and freedom that we have bound ourselves up in ever increasing rules and regulations.

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Interesting, and almost humorous —ironic, certainly— paradox.

zippy2006 said:

Perhaps he could, in one way or another. Does that invalidate my claim, oh "defeater of illogic"?

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I know your response wasn’t directed at me. But regarding illogic— if the Bible God is indeed the one and only true god, why are so many other gods worshipped around the world? Even Christians don’t all agree on God’s nature. Unitarians believe God is one, not 3 personages. Mormons (who aren’t considered to be Christians by CF) believe the god of this world was once a human being who was raised to godhood. Many Quakers believe each person finds and envisions God in his/her own manner. Christians currently comprise a plurality of the world’s religious believers. But they’re not a majority. More people in the world believe in different gods. This is what’s illogical. Why would the one, true God—if such an entity exists—allow so many people to worship so many false gods? It makes no sense.

Sorry for going off on a tangential topic.

jayem said:

I know your response wasn’t directed at me. But regarding illogic— if the Bible God is indeed the one and only true god, why are so many other gods worshipped around the world? Even Christians don’t all agree on God’s nature. Unitarians believe God is one, not 3 personages. Mormons (who aren’t considered to be Christians by CF) believe the god of this world was once a human being who was raised to godhood. Many Quakers believe each person finds and envisions God in his/her own manner. Christians currently comprise a plurality of the world’s religious believers. But they’re not a majority. More people in the world believe in different gods. This is what’s illogical. Why would the one, true God—if such an entity exists—allow so many people to worship so many false gods? It makes no sense.

Sorry for going off on a tangential topic.

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You weren't asking me. But, "regarding illogic— if the Bible God is indeed the one and only true god, why" do people assume to know what does and does not make sense based on their knowledge and understanding (i.e. "to them")? To me, if God exists at all, I should think it very unlikely that we can know enough about him to know what he would or would not —nevermind should and should not— be like and do, based on our experiences and imagination.

zippy2006 said:

Perhaps he could, in one way or another. Does that invalidate my claim, oh "defeater of illogic"?

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I was just wondering why God, if he has the power to stop evil (as evidenced by the fact he has stepped in and taken action to stop it in some cases as per your claim in post 2) and presumably a desire to stop evil, why he doesn't use this power and desire to stop ALL evil.

The only thing I can think of is that for whatever reason, God wants certain acts of evil to occur.

Can you propose a different reason?

Mark Quayle said:

You weren't asking me. But, "regarding illogic— if the Bible God is indeed the one and only true god, why" do people assume to know what does and does not make sense based on their knowledge and understanding (i.e. "to them")? To me, if God exists at all, I should think it very unlikely that we can know enough about him to know what he would or would not —nevermind should and should not— be like and do, based on our experiences and imagination.

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That's not an answer to the question of why God doesn't make himself known clearly and unmistakably to every person on Earth. 1 Corinthians says God is not the author of confusion. But that's exactly what we have.

jayem said:

That's not an answer to the question of why God doesn't make himself known clearly and unmistakably to every person on Earth. 1 Corinthians says God is not the author of confusion. But that's exactly what we have.

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From my understanding of the question, several theologians have logically answered as "election." The Israelites were the chosen people. Aquinas, Calvin and several other theologians have logically concluded that "election" is certainly known in the OT and would logically follow in the NT.
A person cannot know God unless God chooses to reveal Himself or enables a person to know Him through the Holy Spirit.

QvQ said:

From my understanding of the question, several theologians have logically answered as "election." The Israelites were the chosen people. Aquinas, Calvin and several other theologians have logically concluded that "election" is certainly known in the OT and would logically follow in the NT.
A person cannot know God unless God chooses to reveal Himself or enables a person to know Him through the Holy Spirit.

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Predestination makes far more logical sense. And it’s more congruent with the idea that God is the ultimate universal sovereign, and nothing can happen that’s not in accordance with God’s will. But it would put a lot of evangelists out of business. What’s the point of an evangelical ministry if God’s already chosen who’ll be a believer

Edited to add: I forgot to mention that pre-ordained election—although logical—is not a popular doctrine. It negates the concept of free will. And that makes it a hard sell.