In wake of school shooting, Tennessee legislature acts to protect innocent and vulnerable gun manufacturers and dealers

Pommer · May 16, 2023

essentialsaltes said:
Tennessee governor signs bill to shield gun firms further against lawsuits
Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee has signed off on additional protections for gun and ammunition dealers, manufacturers and sellers against lawsuits within a bill that lawmakers passed after a deadly school shooting

WHEW!

hislegacy · May 16, 2023

seeking.IAM said:
People in gun free countries would disagree.

Which gun free country is that?

Wings like Eagles · May 16, 2023

I think that is the right thing to do for Tennessee.

Maybe California should be rethinking all of their gun control legislation.

Number of mass shootings in the United States between 1982 and April 2023, by state

Mass shootings in the U.S. by state 1982-2023 | Statista

As of December 2023, California had the most mass shootings in the United States, with 26 total shootings since 1982.

www.statista.com

essentialsaltes · May 16, 2023

Wings like Eagles said:
I think that is the right thing to do for Tennessee.

Maybe California should be rethinking all of their gun control legislation.

Per capita, Tennessee's rate is nearly twice that of California.

Wings like Eagles · May 16, 2023

By your link, that looks to be true.

rambot · May 16, 2023

hislegacy said:
Which gun free country is that?

Japan. South Korea. Relative to the US? Most developed countries.

rambot · May 16, 2023

essentialsaltes said:
Per capita, Tennessee's rate is nearly twice that of California.

I'd wager if you always looked at per capita, the statistics would be far more difficult to argue.

comparing statistics between California and Tennessee without citing it as per capita? California is 7x the population size....

Jamdoc · May 16, 2023

essentialsaltes said:
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — In the wake of a deadly school shooting last month, Republican lawmakers in Tennessee awarded final passage Tuesday to a proposal that would further protect gun and ammunition dealers, manufacturers and sellers against lawsuits.

The manufacturers didn't kill anyone and neither did the dealers. The shooter did. A firearm is just a tool, it is a wicked heart that kills.

Wings like Eagles · May 16, 2023

Another visual tool, not by mass shooting though.

An Atlas of American Gun Violence

Nine years. 330,000 shootings. How has gun violence marked your corner of the U.S.?

www.thetrace.org

essentialsaltes · May 16, 2023

Jamdoc said:
The manufacturers didn't kill anyone and neither did the dealers.

What if an online gun dealer based in Tennessee illegally sells ammunition to a minor? Should they be free from liability if that ammo kills ten people?

High Fidelity · May 16, 2023

Jamdoc said:
The manufacturers didn't kill anyone and neither did the dealers. The shooter did. A firearm is just a tool, it is a wicked heart that kills.

So is a ballistic missile. Should citizens be allowed to own those? If not, why? And who and what determines where the line is?

Pommer · May 16, 2023

High Fidelity said:
So is a ballistic missile. Should citizens be allowed to own those? If not, why? And who and what determines where the line is?

Shhh, Elon might hear you.

Jamdoc · May 16, 2023

essentialsaltes said:
What if an online gun dealer based in Tennessee illegally sells ammunition to a minor? Should they be free from liability if that ammo kills ten people?

if they broke the law they're punished for the law they broke, not for something they didn't actually do that someone else did using a product that's sold.
This isn't minority report.

Otherwise you'd have alcohol producers liable for drunk driving accidents, as well as the manufacturers of automobiles used in the crime and the auto dealership.
Now if a store sold the alcohol illegally to a minor, they're punished for that, not for the minor's drunk driving accident.

Hans Blaster · May 16, 2023

essentialsaltes said:
Tennessee governor signs bill to shield gun firms further against lawsuits
Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee has signed off on additional protections for gun and ammunition dealers, manufacturers and sellers against lawsuits within a bill that lawmakers passed after a deadly school shooting

So much for that "personal impact" he "felt" from the shooting at the Louisville bank.

Jamdoc · May 16, 2023

High Fidelity said:
So is a ballistic missile. Should citizens be allowed to own those? If not, why? And who and what determines where the line is?

when the 2nd Amendment was written, private citizens owned cannons and warships, the same weapons that the government had.
Putting a limitation on what private citizens can have, so that the government has a monopoly on force, to use AGAINST its citizens, is exactly what the 2nd amendment was written for. Not for hunting.
The fact that Joe Biden argues that private citizens can't fight the US government in a state of tyranny because the US government has tanks and missiles and jets.. is kinda precisely why the amendment is needed. That the government would consider using such weaponry against its own people, is why you don't want a government having a monopoly on force.
That said such a thing generally acts as a deterrent, if your populace is CAPABLE of mounting a revolution against the government and overthrowing it, that deters the government from creating a state of tyranny that'd warrant such a revolution.

In the same vein of thinking, why do we have a nuclear arsenal? It's to deter the Russians, Chinese, and other nuclear powers from using their nuclear weapons on us, not that we plan to use ours in the first place. Otherwise the weapons are essentially useless for all parties involved. None of them can really use them because of the retaliation that'd happen would destroy them.
But no country will ever again unilaterally disarm themselves if they are a nuclear weapon state. Ukraine did in the early 1990's for security guarantees from the US, Great Britain, France, and Russia. All agreed that if Ukraine dismantled its 5000 ICBM's, that they'd all enforce Ukraine's territorial sovereignty.
Now look at Ukraine.
You think Ukraine would be in this situation now if they had 5000 nuclear warheads aimed at Russia?

Now, I suppose there is a line in that private citizens should not own nuclear weapons, mainly because safely storing them is difficult and costly...

but.. if a private citizen could afford something like tanks, warships, artillery, fighter jets, etc.. and someone would sell such things to them, or they make them themselves.. I wouldn't particularly have a problem with that provided they pass background checks and the tax stamps to possess such things. Private citizens do legally own grenade launchers, tanks, etc. Those aren't being used in crimes, because the people who have those kinds of things have been vetted, and aren't likely to use such things for violence.

Limiting weapons because you think a person is likely to use them for violence is a bad mindset to have in the first place. If I think a person is likely to commit violence against others, I don't want them owning a bbgun, I'm not going to tell them "well we won't let you have an AR-15 because you can kill MORE people, but here, have a 6 shot revolver"
It's either I trust them with machine guns and tanks, or I don't trust them with a pointy stick.
Not an in between.

Pommer · May 16, 2023

Jamdoc said:
when the 2nd Amendment was written, private citizens owned cannons and warships, the same weapons that the government had.
Putting a limitation on what private citizens can have, so that the government has a monopoly on force, to use AGAINST its citizens, is exactly what the 2nd amendment was written for. Not for hunting.
The fact that Joe Biden argues that private citizens can't fight the US government in a state of tyranny because the US government has tanks and missiles and jets.. is kinda precisely why the amendment is needed. That the government would consider using such weaponry against its own people, is why you don't want a government having a monopoly on force.
That said such a thing generally acts as a deterrent, if your populace is CAPABLE of mounting a revolution against the government and overthrowing it, that deters the government from creating a state of tyranny that'd warrant such a revolution.

In the same vein of thinking, why do we have a nuclear arsenal? It's to deter the Russians, Chinese, and other nuclear powers from using their nuclear weapons on us, not that we plan to use ours in the first place. Otherwise the weapons are essentially useless for all parties involved. None of them can really use them because of the retaliation that'd happen would destroy them.
But no country will ever again unilaterally disarm themselves if they are a nuclear weapon state. Ukraine did in the early 1990's for security guarantees from the US, Great Britain, France, and Russia. All agreed that if Ukraine dismantled its 5000 ICBM's, that they'd all enforce Ukraine's territorial sovereignty.
Now look at Ukraine.
You think Ukraine would be in this situation now if they had 5000 nuclear warheads aimed at Russia?

Now, I suppose there is a line in that private citizens should not own nuclear weapons, mainly because safely storing them is difficult and costly...

but.. if a private citizen could afford something like tanks, warships, artillery, fighter jets, etc.. and someone would sell such things to them, or they make them themselves.. I wouldn't particularly have a problem with that provided they pass background checks and the tax stamps to possess such things. Private citizens do legally own grenade launchers, tanks, etc. Those aren't being used in crimes, because the people who have those kinds of things have been vetted, and aren't likely to use such things for violence.

Limiting weapons because you think a person is likely to use them for violence is a bad mindset to have in the first place. If I think a person is likely to commit violence against others, I don't want them owning a bbgun, I'm not going to tell them "well we won't let you have an AR-15 because you can kill MORE people, but here, have a 6 shot revolver"
It's either I trust them with machine guns and tanks, or I don't trust them with a pointy stick.
Not an in between.

What if Elon Musk should contract with Kim Jong un to provide a platform on which to place one of the fission weapons the latter has at his disposal? (And to be “safe”, house the resultant in, say, Texas?)

FenderTL5 · May 16, 2023

Jamdoc said:
when the 2nd Amendment was written, private citizens owned cannons and warships,

True

Jamdoc said:
the same weapons that the government had.

Untrue.

Jamdoc said:
Putting a limitation on what private citizens can have, so that the government has a monopoly on force, to use AGAINST its citizens, is exactly what the 2nd amendment was written for.

Untrue.

At the time the 2nd Amendment was written the United States did not have a standing Army.
Washington had dismissed the Continental Army to their homes and families. The prevailing thought was against a federal force altogether.

The citizen militia was the country's defense. Period.
Thus the opening phrase in the 2nd Amendment.
The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is for the defense of the "state," not opposition to it.

Trogdor the Burninator · May 16, 2023

Jamdoc said:
Now if a store sold the alcohol illegally to a minor, they're punished for that, not for the minor's drunk driving accident.

A quick google and it seems like you can...

Tulsa, OK – A civil lawsuit against a liquor store which sold alcohol to a minor who died in a car wreck recently settled on the second day of trial with $1.5 million going to the teenage victim’s family.

LONG BEACH, Calif. - A lawsuit has been filed against the owners of a Long Beach liquor store in connection with the deaths of a family of three killed by a hit-and-run driver on Halloween 2019.

In a statement, law firm Samer Habbas & Associates, PC announced the lawsuit against Green Diamond Liquor, where the suspect, then 20-year-old Carlo Navarro, illegally purchased a bottle of whiskey that would later set off a deadly chain of events.

essentialsaltes · May 16, 2023

Jamdoc said:
Otherwise you'd have alcohol producers liable for drunk driving accidents,

Well, I was talking about dealers. in the context of alcohol, that's bars.

The majority of states consider bars and restaurants to be liable for injuries or fatalities caused by an intoxicated individual who’s over-imbibed in their establishment.

So, again, should gun dealers be free from liability if illegally sold ammo kills ten people?

Jamdoc · May 17, 2023

Trogdor the Burninator said:
A quick google and it seems like you can...

Is that right though? Hold someone else accountable for a different person's decisions?

In wake of school shooting, Tennessee legislature acts to protect innocent and vulnerable gun manufacturers and dealers

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Tennessee governor signs bill to shield gun firms further against lawsuits​

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Tennessee governor signs bill to shield gun firms further against lawsuits​

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Tennessee governor signs bill to shield gun firms further against lawsuits

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