A question about babies salvation

atpollard

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This would not make us liable to death and infants and fetus' all die. As wages for sin, death is not a consequence of living...nor does a bent cause death.
I would have to look to confirm the details, but two things cause death … the wages of sin and the Adamic curse. From the Romans 9 comment “before they had done good or evil”, I am inclined to believe that babies are not born with the wages of pre-natal sins, however, they are part of the human race and born heirs to the family curse.
 
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atpollard

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Call our conception our creation if it floats your boat, the JWs push that line too, but it is still HIS system which HE created and by that system sinners are brought into existence who did not exist a moment before.

There is something seriously wrong with this doctrine or an inherited original sin but we will never have any chance to rethink it as long as we accept it and just keep repeating the same old blasphemous platitudes.
The lump of clay shakes it’s fist at the potter and demands “Why have you made me thus?”

… when the answer is so simple:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, so that his deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds will be revealed as having been performed in God.”​
 
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bling

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Yes, so am I.

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me.

If others are trying to make out that its the sex act itself which is sinful that isn't true. God created sex to be within marriage and marriage only. There are many verses to that effect.
1 Corinthians 7:3
The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1 Corinthians 7:2
But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
Proverbs 5:19
A lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.


So if sex inside of marriage is not sinful then that verse is talking about something else.

Is talking about conception which is the passing on of the sinful nature which is why it spread to all people since all people are conceived. Nothing special about David's mother, all of us are conceived in sin.

However if we are saying that David's parents are not married that casts yet another light on things. This is very interesting:

Does the Bible mention David’s mother? | GotQuestions.org
In Jewish tradition, David’s mother was Nitzevet, the daughter of Adael and the wife of Jesse. The Talmud relates a complicated story concerning Nitzevet: her husband, Jesse, began to doubt the purity of his ancestry, since he was the grandson of Ruth the Moabitess (Ruth 4:17). Due to his doubts, Jesse stopped having marital relations with Nitzevet after she had borne her seventh son. Instead, Jesse planned to marry his Canaanite servant and have children with her. The maidservant, however, had pity on Nitzevet and offered Nitzevet a plan: on the wedding night, Nitzevet and the maidservant could secretly switch places, and Nitzevet could sleep with Jesse one more time. The switch worked, much as Leah and Rachel’s switch had worked on Jacob, and Nitzevet became pregnant with David, her eighth son. Nitzevet never revealed to Jesse what she had done, even when her pregnancy was apparent; therefore, Nitzevet came to be despised as an immoral woman, and her son, David, grew up an outcast in his own family. Again, this is an extrabiblical legend, and there is no way to confirm the accuracy of the tale of Nitzevet.
But its legend and speculation not known facts. If his mother did conceive him outside of being married then that verse could be read both ways.
Psalms 51 is talking about David's mother's sin with conception and you seem to be contributing that to Jesse carrying the original sin in his sperm, so why are not all women sinning by get pregnant?
 
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coffee4u

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So you defend the idea that GOD creates evil people under judgement of suffering and death without any free will decision to sin on their part? Wow...

So you think people are born good? Wow.

Try reading what I actually put not what you just made up.

Nowhere did I say "God created people evil" nor did I say "Without free will"
I said we are all born with the propensity to sin, a selfish nature. A child does not have to be taught how to sin.

Romans 3:10
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

The reason we die and go back to dust is because of Adams sin.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

Genesis 3
17And to Adam He said:
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten from the tree
of which I commanded you not to eat,
19By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread,
until you return to the ground—
because out of it were you taken.
For dust you are,
and to dust you shall return.”


Light cannot create darkness.
A good tree cannot put forth rotten fruit.
A stream of life giving water cannot put forth salt or brackish water.
GOODNESS cannot bring forth evil.
Inherited sin or sin by the will of GOD is anathema.
1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. Surely this means that HE cannot do or create evil in any way by any method any more than a match can be struck and darkness come out and fill a room! If you think this verse means something else I'd love to hear what that is but please, no more theology proving that creating us as men in Adam is NOT creating us to be sinners and evil.

Again who said that anything God does is evil? I never said that.
It is God himself who determines what good and evil is, not us. When God judged the world with a global flood he was still being good and just.

We are all sinners deserving of nothing more than hell. it is only by the blood of Jesus that we change from spiritual death to life.

Isaiah 1:18
“Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.


Do we believe Mark 3:23 So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: How can Satan drive out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand." ? Is not the holy side of this syllogism, IF GOD drives out Satan's evil, how can HE create the evil HE hates? IF GOD hates wickedness: and has no wickedness in HIM, Psalm 92:15 proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him. and Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You., how can we say that HE created wicked people by having them born as men in Adam without being a house divided? Both things cannot be true at the same time because they are opposites. Doublethink is the name given to the thought process that believes opposites are both true, A actually is NOT A, at the same time in the same form, sigh. IF HE cannot dwell with the wicked, how can HE have created them / us, especially HIS Bride, as evil in Adam?

Of course I do. It is you who seem confused, you who keeps calling God's judgment or creation as evil not me.
God creation was 'very good' without death. Adam caused the fall.
God didn't create wicked people, people did that all by themselves. They had a choice, they choose to go down the path of 'self knows best' The religion of self.
Adam sinned knowingly and then he and Eve changed. Their eyes were opened and they died spiritually. That change is something he passed on.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
She was deceived, he decided to go against command knowingly and willfully.


There is a difference between the saved and the lost in this world. If they reject God and never accept Jesus they are doomed to not have their names in the book, to face the second death.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


His bride are the redeemed by the blood of Jesus. Which is why Jesus died in the first place because we were wicked. Which is why we repent, if you are born good what exactly do you need Jesus for? If you are born perfect you can go safe yourself.
Only Jesus was born without a sinful nature.
Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

And of course we know that Jesus is God. But no normal human being born is good.
We only become the bride once our sins are forgiven.

Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Christ is good so cannot create evil people by making them human in Adam's sin, especially those HE chose before the foundation of the world to be HIS Bride!!! What foolishness is this??

Again this is talking about people who have come to Christ not the lost who have rejected him. If I were you I would go listen to some good sermons by someone like Spurgeon.

James 3:11 Can both freshwater and bitter water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water;
Though this verse is about words from the heart, how much more is it about the heartfelt creation of people who are more important than words?

2 b cntd:
Yet again you don't seem to understand the difference between non regenerate man and those who have come to Christ, who have repented, who now have a new nature.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
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TedT

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So you think people are born good? Wow.

Try reading what I actually put not what you just made up.
Back at you...I never said that. You put words into my mouth, judging my meaning by your misunderstanding.

Nowhere did I say "God created people evil" nor did I say "Without free will"
I said we are all born with the propensity to sin, a selfish nature. A child does not have to be taught how to sin.
A propensity to sin and a selfish nature are not GODly so therefore they are sinful as proven by the death of infants...which you seem to ignore.

Therefore to inherit such a nature from Adam is by GOD putting that system in place as the method of our creation. I'm not arguing against you, but the doctrine of our creation as sinful which i can't reconcile with the nature of GOD.

Again who said that anything God does is evil? I never said that.
No you did not and I don't believe you believe that but without the use of doublethink to solve the cognitive dissonance of believing a doctrine that implies HE does create evil people since I think that the doctrine of our inheriting sin from Adam at our creation at conception by GOD's will in any way or to any extent is a clear blasphemy.

It is you who seem confused, you who keeps calling God's judgment or creation as evil not me.
No, I do not call what GOD does evil, let's be clear. I only call the accepted false doctrine about our creation at conception as sinners as sinful but I do not accept that it is true, that is, I assert GOD does NOT create evil!
 
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TedT

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Of course I do. It is you who seem confused,

Yet again you don't seem to understand

I understand but I do not agree... or does Calvinism contend that to understand Calvinism is to agree with it and any disagreement must be based upon a confused mental misunderstanding?
 
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hedrick

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I understand but I do not agree... or does Calvinism contend that to understand Calvinism is to agree with it and any disagreement must be based upon a confused mental misunderstanding?
No. But a lot of issues people have with it are based on misunderstanding.
 
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coffee4u

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Back at you...I never said that. You put words into my mouth, judging my meaning by your misunderstanding.

A propensity to sin and a selfish nature are not GODly so therefore they are sinful as proven by the death of infants...which you seem to ignore.

Therefore to inherit such a nature from Adam is by GOD putting that system in place as the method of our creation. I'm not arguing against you, but the doctrine of our creation as sinful which i can't reconcile with the nature of GOD.

No you did not and I don't believe you believe that but without the use of doublethink to solve the cognitive dissonance of believing a doctrine that implies HE does create evil people since I think that the doctrine of our inheriting sin from Adam at our creation at conception by GOD's will in any way or to any extent is a clear blasphemy.

No, I do not call what GOD does evil, let's be clear. I only call the accepted false doctrine about our creation at conception as sinners as sinful but I do not accept that it is true, that is, I assert GOD does NOT create evil!

Rather than arguing against what I am saying I think you need to spell out exactly what you do believe because apparently I am not the only one who is confused by what you are saying.

You either believe people are innocent and sinless
Or you believe we have a sin nature that needs to come to Christ.
Those are the two options.

No one said God created evil people. God created Adam and Eve to be innocent and neutral, but they chose to sin, that innocence was lost.
This is why their eyes were opened and they hid from God, they changed. This change is passed on. When God told Adam because of what he did he will now die and go back to dust this didn't just mean him it meant everyone from now on. And we do, we all die because of Adams sin.
This isn't God creating evil as you keep saying, it is mankind who took perfection and corrupted it.
The world is groaning because of it.
Romans 8:22
We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.


If you believe some other third thing that no one has heard of then this would be why no one is following what you say. Because I am well confused by this point.

* Also I am still getting over Covid and now I think an ear infection so I may not be thinking clearly.
 
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TedT

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You either believe people are innocent and sinless
Or you believe we have a sin nature that needs to come to Christ.
Those are the two options.

I believe that sin can only be adjudicated for the free will decision to sin, NOT by putting anyone into Adam's sin. That's not hard to grasp, eh?

As for resolving your confusion with my addressing the two options you have provided, I will now retire to the Controversial Theology backrooms and give my heretical opinion.

This isn't God creating evil as you keep saying, it is mankind who took perfection and corrupted it. The world is groaning because of it.
First came the Satanic fall, eh? Then Eve following her mentor Satan and then Adam right?

But when did you sin? When did you corrupt the perfection of your creation?

Before your conception there was just so many sinners in the world. When you were conceived there was one more sinner, one more source of sin in the world. HOW is that not the creation of an evil sinner?
 
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coffee4u

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I believe that sin can only be adjudicated for the free will decision to sin, NOT by putting anyone into Adam's sin. That's not hard to grasp, eh?

As for resolving your confusion with my addressing the two options you have provided, I will now retire to the Controversial Theology backrooms and give my heretical opinion.

First came the Satanic fall, eh? Then Eve following her mentor Satan and then Adam right?

But when did you sin? When did you corrupt the perfection of your creation?

Before your conception there was just so many sinners in the world. When you were conceived there was one more sinner, one more source of sin in the world. HOW is that not the creation of an evil sinner?

I was born with a selfish nature as is everyone and would have been sinning as soon as I was cognitively and physically able to.
Unlike Adam and Eve who did not have the capability to sin on their own, it took an outside force, that of Satan to put the idea of sinning into their mind.
We do not need Satan whispering in our ear to sin, they did.
This is why Satan came to Jesus to temp him. He, like Adam did not have the propensity to sin. To be the savior he had to go through the tempting as did Adam and Eve but he succeeded where they did not.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22
"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

We are selfish because mankind decided to sin. Instead of turning to God once the idea was in his mind Adam choose to follow the desires of self.
This is why the entire world is groaning. It is groaning because it is corrupted. This is not God's fault, it is mankind's fault.

A groaning corrupt world can only produce more groaning and corrupted creatures, plants and humans.
Luke 6:44
Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.

Likewise is the world itself. It is incapable of producing perfected innocence because its corrupted. Thorn bushes come from thorn bushes. Sinful people produce sinful offspring.
Which is why we need Jesus.
 
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coffee4u

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I believe that sin can only be adjudicated for the free will decision to sin

That 'free will decision to sin' is your inborn propensity to sin that i have been talking about on every reply.
Adam and Eve did not have a 'free will decision to sin' They didn't see the fruit and think about sinning, we think about sinning because of original sin. Adam and Eve did not have that capability. They required someone else to come and suggest disobedience to them. That is the difference.

If we were like Adam and Eve then we would also be able to walk and talk with God, and we would need Satan to come and tempt us. A small child does not sin because Satan tempted them, they sin from there own selfishness that is inside of them. They can by their own free will 'make a decision to sin'
Adam and Eve did not have that selfishness or awareness they had innocence. The seed of rebellion had to be planted from outside-that being Satan.


Genesis 3:7
Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
Their eyes were now open to sin. They could now make that free will decision to sin on their own.

That is the change that took place, we do not go through that moment of change, which we would have to if we were born free of a selfish nature with our spirits alive. We don't have a sudden revelation where we go from walking and talking with God to covering and hiding. We are born that way already.

Which is why we do not seek God, God calls us.
Romans 3:10-17

10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
 
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TedT

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That 'free will decision to sin' is your inborn propensity to sin that i have been talking about on every reply.
Since I define our free will as completely uncoerced, not forced, to choose any option in the choice NOR constrained, forced, from choosing any option in the choice then sinners cannot have a free will as proven by their inability to choose righteousness and save themselves.
I read the arguments insisting that the ability to make a choice define a free will but have rejected them as so much theo-babble... a will forced to choose an option or unable to choose another option cannot be called free with any semblance of reality.
 
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Dan Perez

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Luke 18:16 But Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

While I don't know if they wake up instantly seeing the Lord, they will see the Lord, and the Kingdom of God is already theirs. And whether they wake up instantly or later in our Earthly time, either way for them it will be like an instant.

Blaise,
The false claim that God 'sends babies to hell' is just one of several inventions by anti-Christian atheists that actually wish to harm Christians.

Blaise, if you are relying on atheists to tell you about God or the Bible you'll end up destroyed very likely.

Instead, trust Christ enough to read what He said in the gospels of in the New Testament, for yourself.

It is easy to listen to Him, the words are fascinating and wonderful, and so much better than you might guess.

Life giving.

Here's a place to start: Matthew 3 NIV

When you get to the amazing chapter 5, the Sermon on the Mount, don't worry if you don't understand every bit instantly. You will understand many wonderful things the first time, and more the 2nd, and just take your time and read until you have something you feel you need to rest with, and just absorb, like a full meal. Sometimes that's even just 1 sentence of His. :) On some days I could only read 1 verse in some of those places, and just was full, delighted, and had enough to keep me for a full day.
So , who told you that Christ sends BABIES TO HELL ?

Read Rom 9:1 ---11 !!

dan p
 
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Rapture Bound

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The OP poses the questions, "“Where do babies that die in infancy go?,are they immediately taken to heaven,or are some sent to hell?”

Well, since the scriptures don't directly address the issue, some degree of speculation will certainly be involved. However, it's my firm conviction that by applying the clear or apparent scriptural truths and principles throughout the scriptures, we can, at the very least, be assured that not one single baby/infant will ever be cast into hell. Scripture after scripture clearly reveals the true nature of Elohim, The One True God, as possessing a perfectly just and loving character [one that by no means would ever cast an innocent infant into the lake of Fire].

Therefore, it seems very clear to me that the most substantial and perplexing question involved here is ... “Where do babies that die in infancy go?"

There are some who would say that they will be resurrected during the Millennial Kingdom to be tested. They will, at that future point in time, be placed in a probationary state of affairs in order for them to be afforded the opportunity to decide whether or not they will freely love and worship their Creator and Redeemer.

There are others that claim that they will automatically and unconditionally be admitted into Heaven [everlastingly].

And there are yet others who say that they will be placed in some type of future probational testing in Heaven similar to that which the angels prior to Lucifer's fall and rebellion experienced [of which little to no information of the the manner of that probation has been revealed to us].

So, in my opinion, I would say that all 3 options are very plausible options, but if I had to pick [speculate] among the 3 options listed above .... I would choose the latter ... the last option listed. Also, the way I see it, we simply aren't provided with sufficient evidence to dogmatically place one position above another... just my 2 cents.
 
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atpollard

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[Psa 51:5 NKJV] 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
[Rom 3:10-11 NKJV] 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

We have a LOT of work to do to correct the Bible according to all these modern Pelegian Apostles.
 
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hedrick

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Psalms 51 is talking about David's mother's sin with conception and you seem to be contributing that to Jesse carrying the original sin in his sperm, so why are not all women sinning by get pregnant?
The text isn‘t about inherited guilt, but the person’s own sin. It is a bit of hyperbole to talk about sin before birth, but the point is that there was no time when the petson was innocent. But the psalm is also confident in God’s forgiveness, so this doesn’t imply that infants are damned. Although it’s not clear in Calvin, the typical Calvinist view is that God‘s grace extends to all infants. But not that infants are innocent. Note that Im not giving my own judgement about how th8bgs work.
 
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Halbhh

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So , who told you that Christ sends BABIES TO HELL ?

Read Rom 9:1 ---11 !!

dan p
Hi Dan, I don't think we've met. I'm Hal.

I hope it was clear in my post you responded to who told me the (false) notion that babies that die are sent to hell -- where that claim/rhetoric comes from today -- so far as I remember, I've only seen it claimed by "atheists" as I wrote above. It's an atheist talking point meant to try to harm the faith of Christians where I've seen it used, many times, but it's not hard to refute.
 
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bling

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The text isn‘t about inherited guilt, but the person’s own sin. It is a bit of hyperbole to talk about sin before birth, but the point is that there was no time when the petson was innocent. But the psalm is also confident in God’s forgiveness, so this doesn’t imply that infants are damned. Although it’s not clear in Calvin, the typical Calvinist view is that God‘s grace extends to all infants. But not that infants are innocent. Note that Im not giving my own judgement about how th8bgs work.
I do not know Hebrew, so not sure how to interpreted this sentence.
RSV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
The Hebrew word for iniquity is used twice in scripture, sin is used once and conceived is used once, making it hard to know.

From the scholars I did research it seems to being addressing the mother's sin.
 
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hedrick

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I do not know Hebrew, so not sure how to interpreted this sentence.
RSV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
The Hebrew word for iniquity is used twice in scripture, sin is used once and conceived is used once, making it hard to know.

From the scholars I did research it seems to being addressing the mother's sin.
It must depend upon the scholar. Not the ones I checked. The whole context is about his sin. He was a sinner from conception. NET, NIV, NRSVue agree. ESV does not, which is not surprising given the Reformed background

Psalm 51:5 (NIV): Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

The Word commentary has a reasonable explanation of this translation:

"The passage is more commonly understood today as a confession of the essential human condition of the speaker. “One is a sinner simply as a result of one’s natural human descent” (W. Eichrodt, Theology of the Old Testament, I, 268). "
 
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bling

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It must depend upon the scholar. Not the ones I checked. The whole context is about his sin. He was a sinner from conception. NET, NIV, NRSVue agree. ESV does not, which is not surprising given the Reformed background

Psalm 51:5 (NIV): Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

The Word commentary has a reasonable explanation of this translation:

"The passage is more commonly understood today as a confession of the essential human condition of the speaker. “One is a sinner simply as a result of one’s natural human descent” (W. Eichrodt, Theology of the Old Testament, I, 268). "
I have taken a lot of my research on this subject from Jewish Scholars (Some being Messianic Scholars) and especially some individuals I corresponded with in Jerusalem who had access to untranslated Hebrew writings.

Psalms 51:5 is a problem translation for Jews and Christians, so this one verse takes a lot of explaining, but it also has to be consistent with all these verse in Psalms at least.

It has been decades since I did my study and I have many pages of notes.

As you alluded to:

This could all be a very poetic hyperbole David is using and he should be allowed some poetic license.

We have similar verses:

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.

On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

Ps. 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.



I argue that a child is Innocent:

Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30

Sin is committed by individually breaking God's law: 1 Jn 3:4

The spoken and written gospel message is God's power for salvation: Rom 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:18

God said that the king of Tyrus was "blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you." Ezek 28:15

"God made men upright but they sought devices" Eccl 7:29 (plural can't refer only to Adam)

Jer 19:2-6 human sacrifices of children to Baal is called the "blood of the innocent"

Jesus teaches us that we must become as little children to enter the kingdom of God (Matt. 18:3- 4; Lk. 18:16-17)

Apostle Paul: Rom 7:9-11 "Once alive" "sin killed me"

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Ps 22 Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.

On you was I cast from my birth, and from my mother's womb you have been my God.

Ps. 139: 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14

I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.



Looking Deeper into Psalms 51:5

This is a Hebrew poetic parallelism, with the second line of the verse saying the same thing as the first line in a slightly different way. The first verb, of which David is the subject, is in the Pulal tense (as is "made" in # Job 15:7 ), which is an idiom used to refer to creation or origins, and is the 'passive' form of Polel ("formed": # Ps 90:2 Pro 26:10 ). TWOT, #623, 1:270.

The subject is, as the verse clearly states, the 'circumstances' of his conception- the sexual union which produced him was an act of sin, and addresses the unrighteousness of his mother's act.

Read some of the English translation Psalms 51:5

KJV Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

YLT Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

WEB Behold, I was born in iniquity. My mother conceived me in sin

RSV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

KJV Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Granted some translators have a problem with the sin being David’s mother’s problem and will point to verses like these:

In PS 116:16, David refers to himself as "the son of thy handmaid", which would seem to testify to his mother's positive relationship with the Lord.

Psalm 86:16 Turn to me and have mercy on me; show your strength in behalf of your servant; save me, because I serve you just as my mother did. She sounds righteous to me.

Thus, they majorly change the translation to be David’s sin, But are these translations the result of preconceived ideas?

The wording seems to be saying: the sin is the mothers at conception.

What do we know which could show it to be David’s mother and a problem?

David had two half-sisters (Zeruiah, Abigail)…..:

1CHR 2:13-16 13 “And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third, 14 Nethaneel the fourth, Raddai the fifth, 15 Ozem the sixth, David the seventh: 16 Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three. 17 And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.”

Again the translators do not like the idea of these sisters only being David’s so the change the wording and meaning, but the better translations is:

KJV Whose sisters were Zeruiah, and Abigail. And the sons of Zeruiah; Abishai, and Joab, and Asahel, three.

Why might these two only be David’s sisters and not Jesse’s daughters: 2Sam 17:25 “And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man’s son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab’s mother.”

Nahash is king of the Ammonites.

1 Chronicles 19:2 David thought, “I will show kindness to Hanun son of Nahash, because his father showed kindness to me.” So David sent a delegation to express his sympathy to Hanun concerning his father. When David’s envoys came to Hanun in the land of the Ammonites to express sympathy to him,

Why did Nahash show kindness to David?

David’s Jewish mother seems to have been previously married to Nahash the Ammonite and later was the second wife of Jesse, this was not a “sin” most likely but later could have been perceived as a sin, thus Jesse not counting David as one of his sons and all his brothers treating him badly.

A lot more can be said, but it was not David being conceived a sinner, but his mother conceiving him could be perceived as a sin.

Now we can go further into scripture showing how David was treated and persecuted as an outsider by his family and loved only by his mother.

Looking at David’s Mother

Exodus 34:7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

Matthew 1:5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth, Obed the father of Jesse

Torah specifically forbids an Israelite to marry a Moabite convert, since this is the nation that cruelly refused the Jewish people passage through their land, or food and drink to purchase, when they wandered in the desert after being freed from Egypt.

It is an interesting study, but there is no proof text scripture I can point to. I am convinced it was the wrongfully perceived sin of David’s mother’s conception.
 
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