THE FULFILLMENT OF DANIEL 11 part 1 of 2

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THE FULFILLMENT OF DANIEL 11
Part 1 of 2

The vision that Daniel recorded in Dan 11 begins in 480 BC with the fourth king after King Darius and ends with the resurrection found in Dan 12.

Jesus chose the titles king of the North and the king of the South in the vision because their fulfillment changes over the long period of time the vision spans.


Below are the insights that I have been given so far regarding the fulfillment of the king of the North and the king of the South found in Dan 11.

The fulfillment of Dan 11:1-2 took place when King Xerxes, who was the fourth king of Persia after King Cyrus, the conquerer of the Babylonians under King Belteshazzar, rose up against Greece and was defeated at Athens in 480 BC.
Dan. 11:1 “In the first year of Darius the Mede, I arose to be an encouragement and a protection for him. 2 “And now I will tell you the truth. Behold, three more kings are going to arise in Persia. Then a fourth will gain far more riches than all of them; as soon as he becomes strong through his riches, he will arouse the whole empire against the realm of Greece.

Dan 11:3 was fulfilled when Alexander the Great, the son of King Phillip II of Macedonia, arose and conquered the Persians in 334 BC and after he died in 332 BC at least 34 of his generals and governors that he left in charge of the kingdoms that he had conquered began fighting with each other until the Romans took over a great portion of the kingdom.
Dan 11:3 “And a mighty king will arise, and he will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4 “But as soon as he has arisen, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four points of the compass, though not to his own descendants, nor according to his authority which he wielded, for his sovereignty will be uprooted and given to others besides them.

Ptolmey (I) Soter and Seleucus (I) Nicator Fulfilled the King of the South and the Prince that Grew Strong With Him Described in Dan. 11:5
Dan. 11:5 “Then the king of the South will grow strong, along with one of his princes who will gain ascendancy over him and obtain dominion; his domain will be a great dominion indeed.

In order to show that Ptolmey (I) Soter fulfilled the king of the South that grew strong, which is described in Dan 11:5, after Alexander the Great died and his kingdom imploded and was parceled out toward the four points of the compass we must begin with the records that show when Alexander the Great died.

According to Annals of the World record number 2356 below Alexander the Great died in 323 BC.


3681c AM, 4391 JP, 323 BC

2356. From the diaries, Arrian and Plutach describe in detail the events that happened during his last sickness. No one can tell us who wrote those diaries of what he did. Whether Eumenes Cardianus or Diodorus Erythreus or Strattis Olynthius did this, we do not know. He wrote a diary of his deed in 4 books and one particular book of Alexander’s death according to Duidas. Whoever’s diaries they were, they contain the clearest account of what happened. Therefore have I thought it good to include what I found in Plutarch from these diaries. I compared them with the days of the Macedonian month of Daesius and our month of May using my own discourse of the Macedonian year. “The 18th of the month Dasin’s (May 12th) he slept in a bath for his fever. The next day (May 13th) after he had washed, he went to his chamber and spent that day there playing dice with Medius and then washed again. Toward the evening after his devotions, he ate his supper somewhat greedily and the next night had a grievous bout of a fever. On the 20th day (May 14th) when he had walked, he offered sacrifices very solemnly again. While lying along in a bath, he listened to Nearchus as he told him what things as had happened to him on his voyage and what wonders he had seen in the ocean. (May 15th) When he did the same this day, his fever increased. The next day (May 16th) his fever grew very sharply and he was carried to lie in a chamber near the great pool or swimming place. Here he talked with his commanders of putting approved men in places of office when offices needed to be filled. On the 24th (May 18th) his sickness grew worse and he offered sacrifice to which he was carried. He ordered the chief commanders and captains who were then in the court to stay with him but the centurions and corporals to serve outside and watch. He was carried into the innermost lodgings of the court. On the 25th day (May 19th) he had a little relief but his fever did not leave him. When the captains came to him, he did not speak to them at all and likewise on the 26th. (May 20th) Thereupon the Macedonians thought that he had been dead and came flocking with a great noise to the chamber door and threatened his friends who were there if they would not let them in. The doors were opened and every common soldier passed by his bedside. The same day Pithon and Selencus who were sent to Serapis’ temple to learn whether Alexander should be moved there or not. They brought back the answer from the oracle that he should stay where he was. On the 28th day (May 22nd.) in the evening he died.

Alexander the Great died in 323 BC

The fact that Annals of World record 2427 below points out that Ptolemy, who was the governor of Egypt under Alexander the Great, had grown so strong in Egypt by the time of Alexander the Greats’ death that it would have been hard to remove him, demonstrates that Ptolemy was the king of the South that grew in strength and continued to do so after Alexander the Greats’ death, which was prophesied in Dan 11:5.


Ptolmey (I) Soter was the governor of Egypt appointed by Alexander the Great who fulfilled the king of the South described in Dan 11:5

3683 AM, 4393 JP, 321 BC

2427. After this, Antipater made a new distribution of the governments of the provinces in Triparadisus. He partly ratified what had formerly been done in that region and made some alterations as required. He left Ptolemy what he had, for it was hard to remove him to any other government since he was firmly entrenched in Egypt. Mesopotamia and the country of Arbela were assigned to Amphimachus, the king’s brother. Babylon went to Seleucus, Parthia to Philippuis, Aria and Drangiana to Atasander of Cyprus. Bactria and Sogdiana went to Stasanor of Solos from the same land. Media, as far as to the Caspian Gates, was taken from Atropates, the son-in-law of the deceased Perdiccas and given to Pithon the son of Crateas or Cratenas. Thereupon Atropates, called the lesser Media from his own name Atroperia and revolted from the Macedonian government and made himself absolute king of it. His posterity held it down until the time of Strabo. (Strabo. l. 11. p. 523.) Antigenes, (for whom Antigonus is incorrectly written in Diodorus) captain of the silver targeteers was given the province of Susa because he was the first that went against Perdiccas. 3000 of the most active Macedonians in the recent sedition were given to him. The rest of the provinces of the upper Asia were left in the hands of such as had them before except for Patala. It was the greatest city of all India.

Annals of the World records 2527 thru 2530 reveal that in 314 BC when Seleucus fled Babylon to Egypt and convinced Ptolemy Soter to help him fight against Antigonus he became Ptolemys’ Prince that grew in strength with him, which was foretold Dan.11:5.

3690 AM, 4400 JP, 314 BC

2527. After 22 days, he arrived at Babylon and Seleucus, the governor of that province, received him with all royal presents and feasted his whole army. Antigonus wanted him to give an account of all the money in the public treasury which he had received there since he was appointed to his position. Seleucus replied that he was not bound to give an account for that which was given him by the Macedonians for the service which he had done for Alexander in his lifetime. When hostilities grew daily between them, Seleucus knew he was too weak to tackle Antigonus and feared lest he be killed like Pithon. He stole away with only 50 cavalry in his company and fled to Ptolemy in Egypt. All the world spoke of how good Ptolemy was to all those that fled to him for refuge. (Diod. Sic. year 2. Olymp. 116. and Appia. in his Syriaca. p. 121.)

2529. When Seleucus was safely in Egypt, Ptolemy entertained him very graciously. When he told Ptolemy all the things Antigonus had done against him, he persuaded Ptolemy to fight against Antigonus. (Diod. Sic. year 2. Olymp. 116. with Pausanias in his Attica, p. 5.)

2530. From there Seleucus with some his closest friends went to Europe, to persuade Cassander, who then commanded all in Macedonia and Lysimachus, who was over Thracia, to wage war on Antigonus. Antigonus suspected his intentions and sent his agents to Ptolemy, Cassander and Lysimachus, to request their love and friendship to him as in former times. (Diod. Sic. year 2. Olymp. 116.) However, Seleucus carried the day so that they all joined together with him in a firm league against Antigonus. (Appia. in his Syriaca. p. 121.)

Selecus (I) Nicator fulfilled the Prince that grew strong with the King of South described in Dan 11:5 after he fled to Egypt in 314 BC

Records 2563 thru 2565 reveal that in 312 BC Seleucus recaptured Babylon, which marked the beginning of the Seleucid Kingdom and Seleucus Nicators’ growth in dominion and ascendancy over Ptolemy Soter, the King of the South, which is described in Dan. 11:5 when it depicts the Prince that grows with the King of the South growing greater in dominion and ascending over the King of the South.
 

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THE FULFILLMENT OF DANIEL 11
Part 1 of 2

The vision that Daniel recorded in Dan 11 begins in 480 BC with the fourth king after King Darius and ends with the resurrection found in Dan 12.

Jesus chose the titles king of the North and the king of the South in the vision because their fulfillment changes over the long period of time the vision spans.


Below are the insights that I have been given so far regarding the fulfillment of the king of the North and the king of the South found in Dan 11.

The fulfillment of Dan 11:1-2 took place when King Xerxes, who was the fourth king of Persia after King Cyrus, the conquerer of the Babylonians under King Belteshazzar, rose up against Greece and was defeated at Athens in 480 BC.
Dan. 11:1 “In the first year of Darius the Mede, I arose to be an encouragement and a protection for him. 2 “And now I will tell you the truth. Behold, three more kings are going to arise in Persia. Then a fourth will gain far more riches than all of them; as soon as he becomes strong through his riches, he will arouse the whole empire against the realm of Greece.

Dan 11:3 was fulfilled when Alexander the Great, the son of King Phillip II of Macedonia, arose and conquered the Persians in 334 BC and after he died in 332 BC at least 34 of his generals and governors that he left in charge of the kingdoms that he had conquered began fighting with each other until the Romans took over a great portion of the kingdom.
Dan 11:3 “And a mighty king will arise, and he will rule with great authority and do as he pleases. 4 “But as soon as he has arisen, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four points of the compass, though not to his own descendants, nor according to his authority which he wielded, for his sovereignty will be uprooted and given to others besides them.

Ptolmey (I) Soter and Seleucus (I) Nicator Fulfilled the King of the South and the Prince that Grew Strong With Him Described in Dan. 11:5
Dan. 11:5 “Then the king of the South will grow strong, along with one of his princes who will gain ascendancy over him and obtain dominion; his domain will be a great dominion indeed.

In order to show that Ptolmey (I) Soter fulfilled the king of the South that grew strong, which is described in Dan 11:5, after Alexander the Great died and his kingdom imploded and was parceled out toward the four points of the compass we must begin with the records that show when Alexander the Great died.

According to Annals of the World record number 2356 below Alexander the Great died in 323 BC.


3681c AM, 4391 JP, 323 BC

2356. From the diaries, Arrian and Plutach describe in detail the events that happened during his last sickness. No one can tell us who wrote those diaries of what he did. Whether Eumenes Cardianus or Diodorus Erythreus or Strattis Olynthius did this, we do not know. He wrote a diary of his deed in 4 books and one particular book of Alexander’s death according to Duidas. Whoever’s diaries they were, they contain the clearest account of what happened. Therefore have I thought it good to include what I found in Plutarch from these diaries. I compared them with the days of the Macedonian month of Daesius and our month of May using my own discourse of the Macedonian year. “The 18th of the month Dasin’s (May 12th) he slept in a bath for his fever. The next day (May 13th) after he had washed, he went to his chamber and spent that day there playing dice with Medius and then washed again. Toward the evening after his devotions, he ate his supper somewhat greedily and the next night had a grievous bout of a fever. On the 20th day (May 14th) when he had walked, he offered sacrifices very solemnly again. While lying along in a bath, he listened to Nearchus as he told him what things as had happened to him on his voyage and what wonders he had seen in the ocean. (May 15th) When he did the same this day, his fever increased. The next day (May 16th) his fever grew very sharply and he was carried to lie in a chamber near the great pool or swimming place. Here he talked with his commanders of putting approved men in places of office when offices needed to be filled. On the 24th (May 18th) his sickness grew worse and he offered sacrifice to which he was carried. He ordered the chief commanders and captains who were then in the court to stay with him but the centurions and corporals to serve outside and watch. He was carried into the innermost lodgings of the court. On the 25th day (May 19th) he had a little relief but his fever did not leave him. When the captains came to him, he did not speak to them at all and likewise on the 26th. (May 20th) Thereupon the Macedonians thought that he had been dead and came flocking with a great noise to the chamber door and threatened his friends who were there if they would not let them in. The doors were opened and every common soldier passed by his bedside. The same day Pithon and Selencus who were sent to Serapis’ temple to learn whether Alexander should be moved there or not. They brought back the answer from the oracle that he should stay where he was. On the 28th day (May 22nd.) in the evening he died.

Alexander the Great died in 323 BC

The fact that Annals of World record 2427 below points out that Ptolemy, who was the governor of Egypt under Alexander the Great, had grown so strong in Egypt by the time of Alexander the Greats’ death that it would have been hard to remove him, demonstrates that Ptolemy was the king of the South that grew in strength and continued to do so after Alexander the Greats’ death, which was prophesied in Dan 11:5.


Ptolmey (I) Soter was the governor of Egypt appointed by Alexander the Great who fulfilled the king of the South described in Dan 11:5

3683 AM, 4393 JP, 321 BC

2427. After this, Antipater made a new distribution of the governments of the provinces in Triparadisus. He partly ratified what had formerly been done in that region and made some alterations as required. He left Ptolemy what he had, for it was hard to remove him to any other government since he was firmly entrenched in Egypt. Mesopotamia and the country of Arbela were assigned to Amphimachus, the king’s brother. Babylon went to Seleucus, Parthia to Philippuis, Aria and Drangiana to Atasander of Cyprus. Bactria and Sogdiana went to Stasanor of Solos from the same land. Media, as far as to the Caspian Gates, was taken from Atropates, the son-in-law of the deceased Perdiccas and given to Pithon the son of Crateas or Cratenas. Thereupon Atropates, called the lesser Media from his own name Atroperia and revolted from the Macedonian government and made himself absolute king of it. His posterity held it down until the time of Strabo. (Strabo. l. 11. p. 523.) Antigenes, (for whom Antigonus is incorrectly written in Diodorus) captain of the silver targeteers was given the province of Susa because he was the first that went against Perdiccas. 3000 of the most active Macedonians in the recent sedition were given to him. The rest of the provinces of the upper Asia were left in the hands of such as had them before except for Patala. It was the greatest city of all India.

Annals of the World records 2527 thru 2530 reveal that in 314 BC when Seleucus fled Babylon to Egypt and convinced Ptolemy Soter to help him fight against Antigonus he became Ptolemys’ Prince that grew in strength with him, which was foretold Dan.11:5.

3690 AM, 4400 JP, 314 BC

2527. After 22 days, he arrived at Babylon and Seleucus, the governor of that province, received him with all royal presents and feasted his whole army. Antigonus wanted him to give an account of all the money in the public treasury which he had received there since he was appointed to his position. Seleucus replied that he was not bound to give an account for that which was given him by the Macedonians for the service which he had done for Alexander in his lifetime. When hostilities grew daily between them, Seleucus knew he was too weak to tackle Antigonus and feared lest he be killed like Pithon. He stole away with only 50 cavalry in his company and fled to Ptolemy in Egypt. All the world spoke of how good Ptolemy was to all those that fled to him for refuge. (Diod. Sic. year 2. Olymp. 116. and Appia. in his Syriaca. p. 121.)

2529. When Seleucus was safely in Egypt, Ptolemy entertained him very graciously. When he told Ptolemy all the things Antigonus had done against him, he persuaded Ptolemy to fight against Antigonus. (Diod. Sic. year 2. Olymp. 116. with Pausanias in his Attica, p. 5.)

2530. From there Seleucus with some his closest friends went to Europe, to persuade Cassander, who then commanded all in Macedonia and Lysimachus, who was over Thracia, to wage war on Antigonus. Antigonus suspected his intentions and sent his agents to Ptolemy, Cassander and Lysimachus, to request their love and friendship to him as in former times. (Diod. Sic. year 2. Olymp. 116.) However, Seleucus carried the day so that they all joined together with him in a firm league against Antigonus. (Appia. in his Syriaca. p. 121.)

Selecus (I) Nicator fulfilled the Prince that grew strong with the King of South described in Dan 11:5 after he fled to Egypt in 314 BC

Records 2563 thru 2565 reveal that in 312 BC Seleucus recaptured Babylon, which marked the beginning of the Seleucid Kingdom and Seleucus Nicators’ growth in dominion and ascendancy over Ptolemy Soter, the King of the South, which is described in Dan. 11:5 when it depicts the Prince that grows with the King of the South growing greater in dominion and ascending over the King of the South.
As far as I can tell, what is mainly in dispute concerning Daniel 11 is primarily verse 21 through the remainder of the chapter. Some interpreters see verses 21-45 involving the same era of time Daniel 12:1-2 are involving. While some other interpreters see only verses 36-45 involving the same era of time Daniel 12:1-2 is involving. And then there are some interpreters, I guess, who see nothing in Daniel 11 involving the era of time Daniel 12:1-2 is involving.

As to me, I tend to think, from verse 21 through verse 45, this is involving the same era of time Daniel 12:1-2 is involving. One reason why I do is because I take the little horn in Daniel 8 to be meaning this same vile person in Daniel 11:21, and that I also take this vile person to be meaning the one who fulfills verse 31 in Daniel 11, and that I don't take the little horn in Daniel 8 to be meaning Antiochus 4E like a lot of interpreters typically do.

Therefore, it would be contradictory to take the little horn in Daniel 8 to be meaning one person, then in Daniel 11 taking the vile person to be a different person altogether, if these are one and the same person.
 
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Jamdoc

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Daniel 11 is contingent on Daniel 8, and Daniel 8 Gabriel explained was at the time of the end, and the final indignation, therefore, all preterist interpretations of Daniel 8 and 11, are wrong.
They may have been foreshadows, but contain numerous errors indicating God either lied about it being end times when they were fulfilled before Christ, and God got His historical events wrong in some places (such as Alexander III, 23rd King of Macedonia being the first King of Javan)

Or... they are yet future.

I'm going to go with God gets it right and preterists get it wrong.
 
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jamesalbright

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As far as I can tell, what is mainly in dispute concerning Daniel 11 is primarily verse 21 through the remainder of the chapter. Some interpreters see verses 21-45 involving the same era of time Daniel 12:1-2 are involving. While some other interpreters see only verses 36-45 involving the same era of time Daniel 12:1-2 is involving. And then there are some interpreters, I guess, who see nothing in Daniel 11 involving the era of time Daniel 12:1-2 is involving.

As to me, I tend to think, from verse 21 through verse 45, this is involving the same era of time Daniel 12:1-2 is involving. One reason why I do is because I take the little horn in Daniel 8 to be meaning this same vile person in Daniel 11:21, and that I also take this vile person to be meaning the one who fulfills verse 31 in Daniel 11, and that I don't take the little horn in Daniel 8 to be meaning Antiochus 4E like a lot of interpreters typically do.

Therefore, it would be contradictory to take the little horn in Daniel 8 to be meaning one person, then in Daniel 11 taking the vile person to be a different person altogether, if these are one and the same person.
Dan 11:21-45 and Dan 12 repeat the same sequence found in the gospels, but simply add more details. You are right about the little horn and their being wrong about Antiochus. The little horn is also the king that comes up among the ten kings and subdues 3, found in Dan 7:24.
Dan 7:24 ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 ‘And he will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 ‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’
I don't think you will find anyone else that sees Seleucus and his Selucid Empire as the Prince who ascended over the king of the South.
The fulfillment of Dan 11 is fascinating. I probably won't understand all of Dan 11 before my ministry ends and I leave this earth. Perhaps, someone who understands world history and focuses on this will complete the picture for us. I would love to understand from where I stopped until the Antichrist emerges on the scene.
 
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Jamdoc

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Dan 11:21-45 and Dan 12 repeat the same sequence found in the gospels, but simply add more details. You are right about the little horn and their being wrong about Antiochus. The little horn is also the king that comes up among the ten kings and subdues 3, found in Dan 7:24.
Dan 7:24 ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 ‘And he will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 ‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’
I don't think you will find anyone else that sees Seleucus and his Selucid Empire as the Prince who ascended over the king of the South.
The fulfillment of Dan 11 is fascinating. I probably won't understand all of Dan 11 before my ministry ends and I leave this earth. Perhaps, someone who understands world history and focuses on this will complete the picture for us. I would love to understand from where I stopped until the Antichrist emerges on the scene.
also the vile man in Daniel 11 cannot be Antiochus IV, because the vile man is not a rightful king, he's appointed by the 10 kings, he gains it through flatteries, not by conquest, or violence, or being an heir and I'd argue not by election either. it's peaceably, but through flatteries, and by appointment by the 10 kings.

Antiochus IV was.. the heir of Antiochus III. He was rightfully King of the Selucid empire.

God either got His historical events wrong.... or yet unfulfilled.
I'm gonna go with God gets it right, preterists get it wrong.
 
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jamesalbright

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also the vile man in Daniel 11 cannot be Antiochus IV, because the vile man is not a rightful king, he's appointed by the 10 kings, he gains it through flatteries, not by conquest, or violence, or being an heir and I'd argue not by election either. it's peaceably, but through flatteries, and by appointment by the 10 kings.

Antiochus IV was.. the heir of Antiochus III. He was rightfully King of the Selucid empire.

God either got His historical events wrong.... or yet unfulfilled.
I'm gonna go with God gets it right, preterists get it wrong.
The vile man, Antichrist, or man of lawlessness is the only one killed without human agency, which disqualifies Antiochus, Nero and everyone academia claims fulfilled the Antichrist. Rev. 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
 
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Jamdoc

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The vile man, Antichrist, or man of lawlessness is the only one killed without human agency, which disqualifies Antiochus, Nero and everyone academia claims fulfilled the Antichrist. Rev. 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Well it's interesting, other passages have the beast being killed, bodily, but yes Revelation 19 has him thrown alive into the lake of fire. I'm interested in knowing how that plays out. Isaiah 14 for instance, many people think refers to Satan himself, and it is about Satan, but it's about a king.
Yes Preterists believe it's about historical Babylon, but I think it's about end times Babylon, and about antichrist, who Satan possesses, as God also refers to this king as the Assyrian, which is used in Micah 5 to refer to Antichrist and the second coming of Messiah.
Similarly other passages of scripture refer to Antichrist coming from places north of Israel (such as Assyria) and the king will be the 8th (enemy empire of Israel), and be of the 7, so one or more of those previous 7 empires is revived. Most people of course think it's a revived Roman empire, and point to the legs of iron in nebuchadnezzar's statue as being Rome. Which yeah I can see that.
But the interesting thing is, the feet, the last part, are iron mixed with clay.

the book of Enoch has a vision with mountains of iron, copper, silver, gold, soft metal, lead, and stone. "Soft metal" is clay.

So your seven mountains could be Egypt (stone), Assyria (clay), Babylon (gold), Persia (silver), Greece (bronze/copper/brass), Rome (iron), and not sure what lead is, either the Ottoman Empire, or something like that. Grain of salt since it's not recognized as scripture but it does seem to line up, and other scripture seems to reference it, including Revelation 17.

So.. could "the Assyrian" be literal? it'd fit the coming from the north of Gog/Magog, and Daniel 8 and 11, Micah 5 and Isaiah 14's Assyrian, and if Assyria is clay, then iron mixed with clay would be Rome mixed with Assyria possibly. Then things all fit.. whereas if you assume Antichrist has to be European, then all the other references such as Gog or "the Assyrian" have to be someone other than Antichrist.. which.. doesn't really work. The entire Gog has to be Russia argument stems from the belief that Antichrist has to be Roman.

going back to the original statement, Gog is also a place where Antichrist is killed bodily. Some people use that to prove that Gog can't be Antichrist.. but God in Ezekiel 38:17 rhetorically asks Gog if he's the one God has been warning Israel about through the prophets.. which.. God doesn't warn about some Russian dictator, God warns about antichrist, and has since the books of Moses.

So it's possible that Jesus kills Antichrist's body and throws his soul into the lake of fire, or something like that. I'm not sure how it works but all 3 passages are true.
 
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jamesalbright

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Well it's interesting, other passages have the beast being killed, bodily, but yes Revelation 19 has him thrown alive into the lake of fire. I'm interested in knowing how that plays out.
When I was reading about the Antichrist led fourth beast in Dan 7 Jesus revealed to me that the four beasts in Dan 7 are those known by the person leading them. Dan 7:11 and Rev.19:20-21 don't contradict each other because the term beast is synonymous with both the Antichrist and the fourth beast, which is made up of seven heads and ten horns. Rev 19:20 tells us the Antichrist and False Prophet are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire and Rev.19:21 tells us the rest of the beast was killed without human agency and sent to Hades. Jesus revealed to me one day while I was reading the scriptures before a Bible study I visited began that the sea that gives up the dead found in Rev.20:13, is the Antichrist and the False Prophet being taken out of the Lake of Fire to be judged. While I am on the topic of Rev.20:13 I would like to add that Jesus revealed to me that Death is where everyone that dies during the 1000 year reign will go while they wait to be judged. There will be those who will believe during the 1000 years. The reason they go to Death is because life during the 1000 years will be different than it is today. The 1000 years is centered around Jesus subjecting the state of awareness of good and evil, which according to Rom 8:6, is called death, under His feet, while Satan is bound and cannot deceive them.
Dan 7:11 “Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 “As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
Rev. 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
Rom. 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
Isaiah 14 for instance, many people think refers to Satan himself, and it is about Satan, but it's about a king.
The "KJV only" people used the KJV mistranslation of "O star of the morning" found in Is 14:12 to support their false claim that the KJV is the Bible that all Christians should be using. that the NASB is . 14 contains scenes from the 1000 years and the fall of the king of Babylon.
Is 14:12 “How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13 “But you said in your heart, ..............
KJV mistranslation: Is. 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Jesus led me to purchase and study from the NASB, which every seminary student I met along the way confirmed when they said they used the NASB to check if their English translation of the original text was correct or not.
the book of Enoch has a vision with mountains of iron, copper, silver, gold, soft metal, lead, and stone. "Soft metal" is clay.
The book of Enoch is not the work of the Holy Spirit because it claims fallen angels had relations with women, which contradicts Luke 20:34-36.
According to Luke 20:34-36 the sons of God and the Nephilim found in Gen 6:2 are not children of fallen angels having relations with human women.
The fact is that the sons of God in Gen 6:1- 4 were believers not the children of fallen angels having relations with human women. This is pointed out in Luke 20:34-36, when it tells us that everyone born in this age, which includes those in Gen 6:4, who are worthy to take part in the resurrection and the new heaven and the new earth are called the sons of God. This dispels the ideas that the sons of God and the Nephilim in Gen 6:4 could be the children of fallen angels and human women.
(Luke 20:34-36) "And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, {35} but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; {36} for neither can they die anymore, for they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection
Rom 9:8 "That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."
Gen. 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Most believers don't realize is that God flooded the earth because the believers were marring unbelievers and became so corrupt they could not discern that Noah heard from God to build the ark and as a consequence they died in the flood. When the scriptures say that it will be like the days of Noah in the end times it is telling us that almost the entire body of Christ will be so corrupt they will not be able to discern the Holy Spirit from the demons. Such as is the case with almost all of academia in Christianity.
This is a quick copy and paste/ shortened version on this topic.
So your seven mountains could be Egypt (stone), Assyria (clay), Babylon (gold), Persia (silver), Greece (bronze/copper/brass), Rome (iron), and not sure what lead is, either the Ottoman Empire, or something like that. Grain of salt since it's not recognized as scripture but it does seem to line up, and other scripture seems to reference it, including Revelation 17.

So.. could "the Assyrian" be literal? it'd fit the coming from the north of Gog/Magog, and Daniel 8 and 11, Micah 5 and Isaiah 14's Assyrian, and if Assyria is clay, then iron mixed with clay would be Rome mixed with Assyria possibly. Then things all fit.. whereas if you assume Antichrist has to be European, then all the other references such as Gog or "the Assyrian" have to be someone other than Antichrist.. which.. doesn't really work. The entire Gog has to be Russia argument stems from the belief that Antichrist has to be Roman.

going back to the original statement, Gog is also a place where Antichrist is killed bodily. Some people use that to prove that Gog can't be Antichrist.. but God in Ezekiel 38:17 rhetorically asks Gog if he's the one God has been warning Israel about through the prophets.. which.. God doesn't warn about some Russian dictator, God warns about antichrist, and has since the books of Moses.
The seven mountains are kingdoms or groups of nations and their kings that Babylon the great, which Jesus revealed to me and sent out to tell whoever will listen is the USA, will rule over until the earthquake John saw in Rev 16 renders the US defenseless and the Antichrist forms the fourth beast and defeats the US militarily. The iron and clay are the mixed marriages that are occurring between the Muslims and the non-Muslims within the nations that make up the seven kingdoms, which the Progressive Communists are bringing them to, with the exception of the US, in order to change their societies into anti-Christian and anti-Semitic societies, while they build voter bases among them. The clay symbolizes the Muslims. In the future the Progressives will use the Muslim terrorists among them to help them exterminate the Christians throughout the world. I don't know the details of the seven kingdoms or the nations comprise each of these kingdoms. At this point I read about some of them in the dreams believers have posted about the judgement of Babylon the great or the US.
If you read the insights Jesus revealed to me regarding the fulfillment of Dan 8 you will see that the Antichrist most likely will come out of the Muslim Brotherhood and he will definitely come out from among the leaders of the Muslim terrorist organizations that are working with the kings of the ten-nation kingdom that are working as kingdom to overthrow Isreael. The ten-nation kingdom is made up of those Muslim nations around Israel that are working as kingdom to overthrow Israel. The ten kings, who John saw are not the kings of those nations are the leaders of the terrorist organizations that are working with the kings of the ten nations to overthrow Israel. Don't forget that Daniel wrote in Dan 11 that the Antichrist will not worship the god of his fathers, but rather he will worship a god of fortresses.
Dan 11: 37 “And he will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all. 38 “But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold, silver, costly stones, and treasures.
If Jesus wills I will be able to return to the 1000 year scriptures and be able to share more about what I learned about them. The prophets saw a mixture of scenes in the same dreams and visions that pertained to what was going on in Israel at the time, Israel's future and during the 1000 years reign.
 
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Jamdoc

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When I was reading about the Antichrist led fourth beast in Dan 7 Jesus revealed to me that the four beasts in Dan 7 are those known by the person leading them. Dan 7:11 and Rev.19:20-21 don't contradict each other because the term beast is synonymous with both the Antichrist and the fourth beast, which is made up of seven heads and ten horns. Rev 19:20 tells us the Antichrist and False Prophet are thrown alive into the Lake of Fire and Rev.19:21 tells us the rest of the beast was killed without human agency and sent to Hades. Jesus revealed to me one day while I was reading the scriptures before a Bible study I visited began that the sea that gives up the dead found in Rev.20:13, is the Antichrist and the False Prophet being taken out of the Lake of Fire to be judged. While I am on the topic of Rev.20:13 I would like to add that Jesus revealed to me that Death is where everyone that dies during the 1000 year reign will go while they wait to be judged. There will be those who will believe during the 1000 years. The reason they go to Death is because life during the 1000 years will be different than it is today. The 1000 years is centered around Jesus subjecting the state of awareness of good and evil, which according to Rom 8:6, is called death, under His feet, while Satan is bound and cannot deceive them.
Dan 7:11 “Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 “As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
Rev. 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat upon the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Rev. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
Rom. 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;

The "KJV only" people used the KJV mistranslation of "O star of the morning" found in Is 14:12 to support their false claim that the KJV is the Bible that all Christians should be using. that the NASB is . 14 contains scenes from the 1000 years and the fall of the king of Babylon.
Is 14:12 “How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13 “But you said in your heart, ..............
KJV mistranslation: Is. 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Jesus led me to purchase and study from the NASB, which every seminary student I met along the way confirmed when they said they used the NASB to check if their English translation of the original text was correct or not.

The book of Enoch is not the work of the Holy Spirit because it claims fallen angels had relations with women, which contradicts Luke 20:34-36.
According to Luke 20:34-36 the sons of God and the Nephilim found in Gen 6:2 are not children of fallen angels having relations with human women.
The fact is that the sons of God in Gen 6:1- 4 were believers not the children of fallen angels having relations with human women. This is pointed out in Luke 20:34-36, when it tells us that everyone born in this age, which includes those in Gen 6:4, who are worthy to take part in the resurrection and the new heaven and the new earth are called the sons of God. This dispels the ideas that the sons of God and the Nephilim in Gen 6:4 could be the children of fallen angels and human women.
(Luke 20:34-36) "And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, {35} but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage; {36} for neither can they die anymore, for they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection
Rom 9:8 "That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants."
Gen. 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Most believers don't realize is that God flooded the earth because the believers were marring unbelievers and became so corrupt they could not discern that Noah heard from God to build the ark and as a consequence they died in the flood. When the scriptures say that it will be like the days of Noah in the end times it is telling us that almost the entire body of Christ will be so corrupt they will not be able to discern the Holy Spirit from the demons. Such as is the case with almost all of academia in Christianity.
This is a quick copy and paste/ shortened version on this topic.

The seven mountains are kingdoms or groups of nations and their kings that Babylon the great, which Jesus revealed to me and sent out to tell whoever will listen is the USA, will rule over until the earthquake John saw in Rev 16 renders the US defenseless and the Antichrist forms the fourth beast and defeats the US militarily. The iron and clay are the mixed marriages that are occurring between the Muslims and the non-Muslims within the nations that make up the seven kingdoms, which the Progressive Communists are bringing them to, with the exception of the US, in order to change their societies into anti-Christian and anti-Semitic societies, while they build voter bases among them. The clay symbolizes the Muslims. In the future the Progressives will use the Muslim terrorists among them to help them exterminate the Christians throughout the world. I don't know the details of the seven kingdoms or the nations comprise each of these kingdoms. At this point I read about some of them in the dreams believers have posted about the judgement of Babylon the great or the US.
If you read the insights Jesus revealed to me regarding the fulfillment of Dan 8 you will see that the Antichrist most likely will come out of the Muslim Brotherhood and he will definitely come out from among the leaders of the Muslim terrorist organizations that are working with the kings of the ten-nation kingdom that are working as kingdom to overthrow Isreael. The ten-nation kingdom is made up of those Muslim nations around Israel that are working as kingdom to overthrow Israel. The ten kings, who John saw are not the kings of those nations are the leaders of the terrorist organizations that are working with the kings of the ten nations to overthrow Israel. Don't forget that Daniel wrote in Dan 11 that the Antichrist will not worship the god of his fathers, but rather he will worship a god of fortresses.
Dan 11: 37 “And he will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all. 38 “But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold, silver, costly stones, and treasures.
If Jesus wills I will be able to return to the 1000 year scriptures and be able to share more about what I learned about them. The prophets saw a mixture of scenes in the same dreams and visions that pertained to what was going on in Israel at the time, Israel's future and during the 1000 years reign.

I believe in the supernatural interpretation of Genesis 6, because having it be humans with humans, makes the passage overly redundant and nonsensical.
These angels committed a great sin, they were not supposed to marry, but did.

We're talking about giants who were 10feet tall or more, and that's after the flood, Og and Goliath and such.

Human x Human pairings.. don't produce that. To have a human x human interpretation of Genesis 6, usually results in claiming that the bible exaggerated the statures of people like Og and Goliath, that they were like, 6-7 feet tall rather than 10-13 feet tall.

Funny you mention Jesus' answer to the sadducees. Jesus' rationale to the sadducees was they did not know the scriptures.

NOWHERE in canon old testament scripture, does it say anything about no marriage after the resurrection.
NOWHERE. you won't find so much of an INKLING of that doctrine in the old testament. Rather passages about the new earth in the old testament depicted very earthly scenes, of building houses, and planting vineyards, and children playing with dangerous animals and not being harmed.
There is NOWHERE in canon old testament scripture that the saducees could have known they were in error.
It is the book of Enoch that actually has reference to angels not having wives because they do not die.

But anyway the main point was the 7 mountains which Revelation refers to, and the 7 kings, 5 being fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece), 1 current (Rome) and 1 yet to come from John's time, and then the 8th will be of the 7.
If using Nebuchadnezzar's statue it's iron mixed with clay.
By Enoch's 7 mountains, clay is probably Assyria.

Otherwise, the euphemism of "the Assyrian" in Micah 5.. doesn't really work.
 
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jamesalbright

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I believe in the supernatural interpretation of Genesis 6, because having it be humans with humans, makes the passage overly redundant and nonsensical.
These angels committed a great sin, they were not supposed to marry, but did.

We're talking about giants who were 10feet tall or more, and that's after the flood, Og and Goliath and such.

Human x Human pairings.. don't produce that. To have a human x human interpretation of Genesis 6, usually results in claiming that the bible exaggerated the statures of people like Og and Goliath, that they were like, 6-7 feet tall rather than 10-13 feet tall.

Funny you mention Jesus' answer to the sadducees. Jesus' rationale to the sadducees was they did not know the scriptures.

NOWHERE in canon old testament scripture, does it say anything about no marriage after the resurrection.
NOWHERE. you won't find so much of an INKLING of that doctrine in the old testament. Rather passages about the new earth in the old testament depicted very earthly scenes, of building houses, and planting vineyards, and children playing with dangerous animals and not being harmed.
There is NOWHERE in canon old testament scripture that the saducees could have known they were in error.
It is the book of Enoch that actually has reference to angels not having wives because they do not die.

But anyway the main point was the 7 mountains which Revelation refers to, and the 7 kings, 5 being fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece), 1 current (Rome) and 1 yet to come from John's time, and then the 8th will be of the 7.
If using Nebuchadnezzar's statue it's iron mixed with clay.
By Enoch's 7 mountains, clay is probably Assyria.

Otherwise, the euphemism of "the Assyrian" in Micah 5.. doesn't really work.
The gene pool of the first man and woman included giants and people of several different colors and bodily characteristics. The gene pool changed when God separated mankind into different languages because it caused mankind to tend to choose mates that spoke the same language. The reason we don't see as many giants as were born in the past is because the giants were killed off and this changed the dominate genes in the gene pool. If you look into the giants topic you will see pictures of modern giants that were born occasionally.
You won't find all of the Laws of Moses in us in the New Heaven and the New Earth, because they were the lesser of the laws given to man to help him get control of himself and avoid being totally entangled in demons. The Laws that will be present in us after the resurrection are the higher laws that were not included in the Laws of Moses, which Jesus fulfilled.
I posted the scriptures that revealed that the supernatural idea contradicts and that the Books of Enoch are not from God. Below are excerpts from the Books of Enoch.
The Books of Enoch (excerpt)
1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters.
2 And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.'
 
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Jamdoc

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The gene pool of the first man and woman included giants and people of several different colors and bodily characteristics. The gene pool changed when God separated mankind into different languages because it caused mankind to tend to choose mates that spoke the same language. The reason we don't see as many giants as were born in the past is because the giants were killed off and this changed the dominate genes in the gene pool. If you look into the giants topic you will see pictures of modern giants that were born occasionally.
You won't find all of the Laws of Moses in us in the New Heaven and the New Earth, because they were the lesser of the laws given to man to help him get control of himself and avoid being totally entangled in demons. The Laws that will be present in us after the resurrection are the higher laws that were not included in the Laws of Moses, which Jesus fulfilled.
I posted the scriptures that revealed that the supernatural idea contradicts and that the Books of Enoch are not from God. Below are excerpts from the Books of Enoch.
The Books of Enoch (excerpt)
1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters.
2 And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.'
Giants weren't born in the first few generations, if they were just part of the gene pool they'd have happened prior.

also you have 'when the humans multiplied they had daughters and then the humans took wives from the daughters of men and... yeah, silly redundancy. Unless you're going to argue that humans used to multiply asexually and only at genesis 6 did they start having sex...

There is also Noah being perfect in his GENERATIONS
that's a very specific thing to be perfect in, it wasn't referring to moral perfection as Noah went and got drunk and cursed his son. Noah, despite being saved by God, still sinned. He was not morally perfect in his own right. Noah is saved by the same grace that we are, faith.

There's also things like in Daniel 2 "they will mingle with the seed of men", etc.

There's something NOT human happening here.
 
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jamesalbright

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Giants weren't born in the first few generations, if they were just part of the gene pool they'd have happened prior.

also you have 'when the humans multiplied they had daughters and then the humans took wives from the daughters of men and... yeah, silly redundancy. Unless you're going to argue that humans used to multiply asexually and only at genesis 6 did they start having sex...

There is also Noah being perfect in his GENERATIONS
that's a very specific thing to be perfect in, it wasn't referring to moral perfection as Noah went and got drunk and cursed his son. Noah, despite being saved by God, still sinned. He was not morally perfect in his own right. Noah is saved by the same grace that we are, faith.

There's also things like in Daniel 2 "they will mingle with the seed of men", etc.

There's something NOT human happening here.
Graves dug up.png
graves dug up little finger.png


You misquoted my original post and then answered your misquote with your opinion about when giants first appeared on the earth. There are no scriptures that describe what the other children Adam and Eve had looked like. Your opinion contradicts that the sons of God in Gen 6 were believers and that the Nephilim were the renowned men of old stated in Gen 6. Gen. 6:1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God (believers) saw that the daughters of men (non-believers) were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “ My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
 
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