ELIJAH AND ZERUBBABEL ARE THE TWO WITNESSES

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,254
463
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You reasoned outside of the scriptures. If you let the scriptures paint the picture you will see that the correlations I posted reveal Elijah and Zerubabbel will be the two witnesses.
Everything I said corresponds with Scriptures. 2 or 3 witnesses establishes a fact. In the last days, 2 witnesses will be available, tormenting the ungodly world with truth. They are *unnamed.*

You are speculating about these things--they are not *explicitly* identified in Scriptures. It is *you* who are speculating outside of Scriptures.

The Scriptures say it is for men to die at least once. Elijah died. Zerubbabel died. The Scriptures say the First Resurrection takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming. Elijah cannot come back to life until then.

Jesus identified John the Baptist as the fulfillment of Elijah as the Messenger sent before Messiah in Malachi. This is Scripture. So when you say I reason *outside of Scripture* I don't know what you mean?
 
Upvote 0

Happygolucky?

Active Member
Jan 9, 2023
116
8
50
California
✟33,128.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your opinion contradicts the dreams I posted and the more recent dreams I read.


If your dreams are telling you that Zerubbabel of that era is physically coming back, you might consider reevaluating the interpretation
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,254
463
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If your dreams are telling you that Zerubbabel of that era is physically coming back, you might consider reevaluating the interpretation
Plus, some dreams were not meant to be interpreted.
 
Upvote 0

Benjamin Müller

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2018
622
447
Western New York
✟43,598.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Joshua is never actually referred to as the Branch; that's wrongly assumed. Put a crown on his head and tell him "Behold a man whose name is the Branch"

Joshua is being instructed that "all these things will happen if you obey me". He's not a symbolic representation of Christ; he is a representation of one of the two witnesses who will be a witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that His kingdom is coming. First he was told to hear and then he is being told to see the truth about Christ and get to know His person. Joshua is a man, otherwise there's no need to continually admonish him.
 
Upvote 0

Benjamin Müller

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2018
622
447
Western New York
✟43,598.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Your opinion contradicts the dreams I posted and the more recent dreams I read.
Jeremiah 23:25 “I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, ‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed!’

I'd be careful of such statements. I haven't read the dreams you posted but your dreams do not trump opinions and opinions do not trump scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Happygolucky?

Active Member
Jan 9, 2023
116
8
50
California
✟33,128.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Joshua is never actually referred to as the Branch; that's wrongly assumed. Put a crown on his head and tell him "Behold a man whose name is the Branch"

Joshua is being instructed that "all these things will happen if you obey me". He's not a symbolic representation of Christ; he is a representation of one of the two witnesses who will be a witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that His kingdom is coming. First he was told to hear and then he is being told to see the truth about Christ and get to know His person. Joshua is a man, otherwise there's no need to continually admonish him.

Say what? Who’s the high priest and the king that the passage talking about? How many priests are there who are wearing a crown below?


Zechariah 6:11-13

11Also take silver and gold, make an ornate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest.


——They put a crown on the head of Joshua the high priest. That represents a king and priest.——


12Then say to him, ‘The LORD of armies says this: “Behold, there is a Man whose name is [f]Branch,


——-The Lord says a man whose name is Branch
How many men are being crowned above? One, it’s Joshua——



for He will [g]branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.

—-He will Branch out from where He is at, from the Root——


13Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne.

—-Above who is He? How many people are named above? One, and it’s Joshua. Who is a priest on His Throne? Only Jesus——


So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two [h]offices.”


The only person in Zechariah 6:11-13 is Joshua. The only high priest who was crowned was Joshua ! Obviously he represents Jesus.
Who is “He”? of course, it’s Joshua.

So are you saying that the high priest who’s wearing the crown is not the king and high priest that the passage is talking about? That they crowned Joshua as a king and then are somehow talking about somebody entirely different? Think about what you’re suggesting.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jamesalbright

Active Member
Apr 30, 2023
194
6
70
PA
✟11,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Jeremiah 23:25 “I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, ‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed!’

I'd be careful of such statements. I haven't read the dreams you posted but your dreams do not trump opinions and opinions do not trump scripture.
The dream I cited
Jeremiah 23:25 “I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, ‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed!’

I'd be careful of such statements. I haven't read the dreams you posted but your dreams do not trump opinions and opinions do not trump scripture.
We forget that we are discussing the dreams prophets saw and recorded. The dreams I posted were seen by Zech. and Haggi which more recent dreams I read correlate with.
 
Upvote 0

Benjamin Müller

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2018
622
447
Western New York
✟43,598.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
So are you saying that the high priest who’s wearing the crown is not the king and high priest that the passage is talking about? That they crowned Joshua as a king and then are somehow talking about somebody entirely different? Think about what you’re suggesting.
I have thought about what I am suggesting.

Where is Joshua likened to a king? He is only ever called the High Priest. Zechariah 6:12-13 are talking about Christ, yes, but not about Joshua. God is talking to Joshua about Christ.

Even Aaron wore a crown [Ex 8:38-38], so to assume the crowing of the High Priest makes him a king, is a faulty assumption. If that crown belonged to Christ, then why does God say that Joshua's crown shall be a memorial to for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah? The Crown which Christ wears is not and never will be a memorial to any man or group of men. His crown is a perpetual crown. And if you'd like to go further into the details Joshua's crown is of silver and gold; silver is inferior to gold. Christ's crown is described as gold, not silver and gold. Joshua's crown does not match the description of Christ's crown.

And even if you'd like to argue that the throne is the kingly seat for Joshua:

Revelation 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Just seeing that Joshua has to be admonished, and reminded to walk in God's ways, and told to obey should be enough to exclude him as a symbolic character of Christ because Christ never had to be admonished by God, nor reminded to obey. He was without fault. Christ's crown will never be for a memorial of men nor will his crown reside in the temple; He will wear it. [Rev. 14:14]
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jamesalbright

Active Member
Apr 30, 2023
194
6
70
PA
✟11,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Everything I said corresponds with Scriptures. 2 or 3 witnesses establishes a fact. In the last days, 2 witnesses will be available, tormenting the ungodly world with truth. They are *unnamed.*

You are speculating about these things--they are not *explicitly* identified in Scriptures. It is *you* who are speculating outside of Scriptures.

The Scriptures say it is for men to die at least once. Elijah died. Zerubbabel died. The Scriptures say the First Resurrection takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming. Elijah cannot come back to life until then.

Jesus identified John the Baptist as the fulfillment of Elijah as the Messenger sent before Messiah in Malachi. This is Scripture. So when you say I reason *outside of Scripture* I don't know what you mean?
Wrong, I cited scriptures, you did not, but rather you merely expressed your opinions about the scriptures. Don't waste my time with your opinions, cite scriptures and use common sense.
 
Upvote 0

Happygolucky?

Active Member
Jan 9, 2023
116
8
50
California
✟33,128.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just seeing that Joshua has to be admonished, and reminded to walk in God's ways, and told to obey should be enough to exclude him as a symbolic character of Christ

Jesus was obedient to the will of the Father. In order to be obedient there must be a directive, or a command

Philippians 2:8

8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross.


John 6:38

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

He came to do not His will, but the will of the Father.

Luke 22:42

saying, “Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done.”

Not His will, but the Father’s will

Where is Joshua likened to a king? He is only ever called the High Priest.

Who wears a crown? A king! In Zechariah 6:11-13 Joshua is the only high priest that has a crown put on is head. Denoting kingship upon the priest. The merging of the 2 “offices” according to the order of Melchizedek.

Somehow it seems you’re suggesting that Joshua the high priest is irrelevant, in Zechariah 6:11-13? He is the only priest in the passage who is wearing a crown. Obviously, below speaks of him and not anyone else


Zechariah 6:13 13Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the majesty and sit and rule on His throne. So He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two [h]offices.”’


The only high priest who was crowned 2 verses prior was Joshua. Obviously, this speaks of Joshua, and he symbolizes the Branch. The only priest on His throne, is the priest who was crowned in vs. 11.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,254
463
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Wrong, I cited scriptures, you did not, but rather you merely expressed your opinions about the scriptures. Don't waste my time with your opinions, cite scriptures and use common sense.


Heb 9.27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.

Elijah and Zerubbabel both died. Common sense indicates Elijah died after he was caught up to heaven. He cannot sustain his physical body without food and water in the clouds.

Neither can those who have died be resurrected, once their bodies are annihilated. The only resurrection available to those whose bodies have perished is the First Resurrection, which happens at Christ's 2nd Coming.

Jesus identified John the Baptist as the fulfillment of the "Elijah" prophecy of Malachi.

Malachi 4.5 See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.
Mark 9.12 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? 13 But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.”


Common sense indicates that Jesus was saying the prophecy of Elijah to come was fulfilled in his predecessor, John the Baptist. It was the *prophecy* that was fulfilled, not a 2nd Coming of the literal Elijah.

Therefore, Jesus indicated the prophecy was fulfilled in the sense that "Elijah to come" was meant to be a prefiguring of John the Baptist, having the prophetic credentials of the Prophet Elijah and not being the actual Elijah. Jesus argued, after all, that there was none greater among the prophets than John the Baptist. And Elijah had been sort of "king of the prophets." So, the prophecy was indicating that one like Elijah would come with his prophetic authority to declare Messiah's advent.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jamesalbright

Active Member
Apr 30, 2023
194
6
70
PA
✟11,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Heb 9.27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.

Elijah and Zerubbabel both died. Common sense indicates Elijah died after he was caught up to heaven. He cannot sustain his physical body without food and water in the clouds.

Neither can those who have died be resurrected, once their bodies are annihilated. The only resurrection available to those whose bodies have perished is the First Resurrection, which happens at Christ's 2nd Coming.

Jesus identified John the Baptist as the fulfillment of the "Elijah" prophecy of Malachi.

Malachi 4.5 See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.
Mark 9.12 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected? 13 But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him.”


Common sense indicate that Jesus was saying the prophecy of Elijah to come was fulfilled in his predecessor, John the Baptist. It was the *prophecy* that was fulfilled, not a 2nd Coming of the literal Elijah.

Therefore, Jesus indicated the prophecy was fulfilled in the sense that "Elijah to come" was meant to be a prefiguring of John the Baptist, having the prophetic credentials of the Prophet Elijah and not being the actual Elijah. Jesus argued, after all, that there was none greater among the prophets than John the Baptist. And Elijah had been sort of "king of the prophets." So, the prophecy was indicating that one like Elijah would come with his prophetic authority to declare Messiah's advent.
If you read my original post you would have seen that I addressed this through the scriptures. Read my posts before you comment on them so I don't have to repost parts of it over and over.

Jesus states that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses in Mal 4:5-6 when He states that He is going to send Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord which is when Jesus throws the antichrist and the false prophet into the lake of fire alive and destroys his armies.
(Mal 4:5-6) "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. {6} "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

According to Mat 17:10-12 and Mark 9:12 John the Baptist was not the returning Elijah. After John the Baptist had already been beheaded Jesus stated that Elijah is still coming I Mat 17:11 and Mark 9:12.

Mat 17:10-12) And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" {11} And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; {12} but I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."
(Mark 9:11-12) And they asked Him, saying, "Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" {12} And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He should suffer many things and be treated with contempt?

The answer to why Jesus said that Elijah had already come and that he will come in the future is found when we compare the effect that John was having at the time and the effect that Elijah will have when he comes, which as is stated in Luke 1:13-17 and Mal 4:5-6 is that both caused the hearts of fathers to turn back to the children.
Luke 1:13-17) But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. {14} "And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. {15} "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb. {16} "And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. {17} "And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
(Mal 4:5-6) "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. {6} "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

John himself said he was not Elijah who is to come.
(John 1:19-21) And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" {20} And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." {21} And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said^, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,254
463
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If you read my original post you would have seen that I addressed this through the scriptures. Read my posts before you comment on them so I don't have to repost parts of it over and over.
I've visited and revisited this same argument *many times* in my life.
Jesus states that Elijah will be one of the two witnesses in Mal 4:5-6 when He states that He is going to send Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord which is when Jesus throws the antichrist and the false prophet into the lake of fire alive and destroys his armies.
I understand that's what you believe. I believed that too at one time. It did, at one time, sound to me as if Jesus was saying two contradictory things at once, that yes, Elijah is coming immediately before my 2nd Coming, but he is actually John the Baptist, as well.

That never sat well with me over time, and I eventually came to the conclusion that was undeniable to me--Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah, who was promised to come and be the messenger of the coming of Messiah. I had to conclude, ultimately, that this was a prophecy of Jesus' 1st Coming, which was also a harbinger of his 2nd Coming. In other words, John the Baptist was identifying Jesus in his earthly ministry to be the one who will bring judgment at his 2nd Coming.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,254
463
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
John himself said he was not Elijah who is to come.
(John 1:19-21) And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" {20} And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." {21} And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said^, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
John was not denying he was the fulfillment of the prophecy. He was not the Prophet/Messiah promised in the Law of Moses. Nor was he literally Elijah, come back from the dead. Rather, he was the prophesied messenger of the Messiah, the forerunner. He did not deny he was that. Only in that sense was he "Elijah who is to come." My opinion, brother. You can have yours--it's alright with me.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jamdoc

Watching and Praying Always
Oct 22, 2019
7,496
2,334
43
Helena
✟207,195.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I believe it's Elijah and Moses that are the olive trees of the two witnesses (the 2 candlesticks I believe are the remnant church, as Revelation 1 says the candlesticks represent churches)
simply because Revelation 11 tells us the two witnesses consist of the 2 olive trees, which refers to Zechariah 4. (Revelation 11:4)
Zechariah 4 tells us the 2 olive branches are the two anointed ones who stand next to the Lord of the whole Earth (Zechariah 4:12-14)

... and in the Mount of Transfiguration account, 2 prophets stood next to Jesus... Moses, and Elijah.
2 anointed ones who stood next to the Lord of the whole earth.
 
Upvote 0

jamesalbright

Active Member
Apr 30, 2023
194
6
70
PA
✟11,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I've visited and revisited this same argument *many times* in my life.

I understand that's what you believe. I believed that too at one time. It did, at one time, sound to me as if Jesus was saying two contradictory things at once, that yes, Elijah is coming immediately before my 2nd Coming, but he is actually John the Baptist, as well.

That never sat well with me over time, and I eventually came to the conclusion that was undeniable to me--Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah, who was promised to come and be the messenger of the coming of Messiah. I had to conclude, ultimately, that this was a prophecy of Jesus' 1st Coming, which was also a harbinger of his 2nd Coming. In other words, John the Baptist was identifying Jesus in his earthly ministry to be the one who will bring judgment at his 2nd Coming.
You should have posted you revisited these scriptures and don't believe what you read. The scriptures were made to teach and correct you, not you were made to correct the scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

jamesalbright

Active Member
Apr 30, 2023
194
6
70
PA
✟11,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
John was not denying he was the fulfillment of the prophecy. He was not the Prophet/Messiah promised in the Law of Moses. Nor was he literally Elijah, come back from the dead. Rather, he was the prophesied messenger of the Messiah, the forerunner. He did not deny he was that. Only in that sense was he "Elijah who is to come." My opinion, brother. You can have yours--it's alright with me.
The person who asked John if he was Elijah acknowledged what was plainly stated by prophets, which is that Elijah would return to the scene. You on the other hand blatantly contradict the prophets. We aren't talking about opinions we are talking about your blatant misuse of the English language.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,254
463
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You should have posted you revisited these scriptures and don't believe what you read. The scriptures were made to teach and correct you, not you were made to correct the scriptures.
We simply disagree on what we think the Scriptures are saying..
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
2,254
463
Pacific NW, USA
✟105,260.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The person who asked John if he was Elijah acknowledged what was plainly stated by prophets, which is that Elijah would return to the scene. You on the other hand blatantly contradict the prophets. We aren't talking about opinions we are talking about your blatant misuse of the English language.
On the contrary, *you* make this into a "life or death" matter of faith. I disagree with your interpretation, as do many others. So anybody who disagrees with your interpretation on this matter is a "heretic?" Start acting like an obedient Christian, brother. Christians can disagree and still love one another. That's what Christ called us to do.

As I said, John the Baptist rightly denied that he was the "Prophet," aka the Messiah. He also rightly denied that he was a reincarnation of the literal Prophet Elijah. What he did *not* do is deny he was the fulfillment of the prophesied "Elijah" who would be the Messenger, or Forerunner, of Messiah, because that's exactly who Jesus said he was!

In other words, John denied he was the physical flesh and blood Elijah, come back from heaven. But he did not deny he was a fulfillment of the "Elijah" prophecy who symbolically represented the forerunner of Messiah.
 
Upvote 0