The Myth of Scriptural Literalism

Jipsah

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I just stole this tag from another user here (AV1611VET) "The Bible says it, that settles it." The general idea is that Scripture should generally be taken literally as written.

The rubric that literalists generally claim to follow is: "“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” That sounds very reasonable, but is based one glaring fallacy - that there is no generally agreed upon authority for what can be considered "common sense", and what are to be considered "axiomatic and fundamental truths".

What we find is that what is treated common sense and/or as fundamental truths depends entirely one one's doctrinal viewpoint or sectarian presuppositions. For example, in recent discussions in these forums, posters have been at odds over two different unrelated ideas, one, that God created the universe in literal six 24 hour solar days, and that the other, that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are the literal Body and Blood of our Lord.

Both groups take their positions on fact that they're based on the "plain sense of Scripture". Scripture does in fact say that the universe was created in six days. Our Lord did in fact say "take, eat, this is My Body". Taken simply as written, they carry roughly equal weight. But doctrinally, the acceptance or rejection of the of the literal words those passages are make-or-break matters, and holding the "correct" meaning of them is of vital imprtance.

To all Catholics (Roman, Orthodox, Anglo, etc), as well as most of the "traditionalist" denominations the Real Presence of the Lord's Body and Blood in the Eucharist is extremely important, while to more modern groups it's just part of a remembrance ceremony. To the more modern Protestant groups the believing the literal 6 Days of Creation is a matter of declaring one's rejection of secularism and dedication to the authority of God's Word, while to the Traditionalists it's simply a symbolic account of God's creation of the universe.

The bottom line is, who decides what is to be taken literally and what isn't, given that we have no solid basis upon which to decide that one thing is a fundamental truth and another is not? We have the Creeds (thanks be to God!) to summarize what we all believe, and the old reliable "what that really means..." when the Word threatens to damage our most dearly held doctrines. But it looks like for the most part it's every man for himself.

Comments?
 
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BobRyan

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I just stole this tag from anpother user here (AV1611VET) "The Bible says it, that settles it." The general idea is that Scripture should generally be taken literally as written.
Which makes many people happy when they think of the virgin birth, the miracles of Christ, His bodily resurrection and ascension to heaven.

But the moment this act of taking the Bible literally is used consistently across the board - and it gets to the first 9 chapters of Genesis -- well then, that's another thing altogether for 'some'.
The rubric that literalists generally claim to follow is: "“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” That sounds very reasonable
And works fine for the case with Christ. But if you allow the Bible to be true in all other areas on that same basis...well that's a problem for "Some"

, but is based one glaring fallacy - that there is no generally agreed upon authority for what can be considered "common sense", and what are to be considered "axiomatic and fundamental truths".
Hmm.. so then no real way to have trust in the virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ, the bodily ascension of Christ , His miracles?

That would be sad indeed.
What we find is that what is treated common sense and/or as fundamental truths depends entirely one one's doctrinal viewpoint or sectarian presuppositions. For example, in recent discussions in these forums, posters have been at odds over two different unrelated ideas, one, that God created the universe in literal six 24 hour solar days
Wow - who would have guessed that would come up?

and that the other, that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are the literal Body and Blood of our Lord.
But in the case of John 6 (which is not the Eucharist, not the last supper) -- Jesus explains the symbols and what they mean.
Both groups base their positions on fact that they're based on the "plain sense of Scripture".


Scripture does in fact say that the universe was created in six days.
No it does not. At least not in Genesis 1 and 2.

In Genesis 1 the Earth and all life on it, as well as the Sun and moon (The TWO great lights made on day 4) - are i that 7 day week - but not the entire universe. A "detail" some would skim over at times - since it helps them with another agenda.
Our Lord did in fact say "take, eat, this is My Body". Taken simply as written

1 Cor 11 Paul tells us he said it is a memorial "in rememberance of Me" - and that as often as we drink that cup and eat that bread we
"proclaim" the Lord's death until He comes. It is a memorial service.

Some people often skim over those details as well.
The bottom line is, who decides what is to be taken literally and what isn't

The details - in the text.
 
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BobRyan

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we have no solid basis upon which to decide that one thing is a fundamental truth and another is not? We have the Creeds (thanks be to God!) to summarize what we all believe, and the old reliable "what that really means..."
So then there is 'sola scriptura" testing on the one hand.

And sola-creed or sola-tradition testing on the other.

We also see that contrast in Mark 7:6-13 as a problem that Christ faced in His day.
 
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sandman

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I just stole this tag from anpother user here (AV1611VET) "The Bible says it, that settles it." The general idea is that Scripture should generally be taken literally as written.

The rubric that literalists generally claim to follow is: "“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” That sounds very reasonable, but is based one glaring fallacy - that there is no generally agreed upon authority for what can be considered "common sense", and what are to be considered "axiomatic and fundamental truths".

What we find is that what is treated common sense and/or as fundamental truths depends entirely one one's doctrinal viewpoint or sectarian presuppositions. For example, in recent discussions in these forums, posters have been at odds over two different unrelated ideas, one, that God created the universe in literal six 24 hour solar days, and that the other, that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are the literal Body and Blood of our Lord.

Both groups base their positions on fact that they're based on the "plain sense of Scripture". Scripture does in fact say that the universe was created in six days. Our Lord did in fact say "take, eat, this is My Body". Taken simply as written, they carry roughly equal weight. But doctrinally, the acceptance or rejection of the of the literal words those passages are make-or-break matters, and holding the "correct" meaning of them is of vital imprtance.

To all Catholics (Roman, Orthodox, Anglo, etc), as well as most of the "traditionalist" denominations the Real Presence of the Lord's Body and Blood in the Eucharist is extremely important, while to more modern groups it's just part of a remembrance ceremony. To the more modern Protestant groups the believing the literal 6 Days of Creation is a matter of declaring one's rejection of secularism and dedication to the authority of God's Word, while to the Traditionalists it's simply a symbolic account of God's creation of the universe.

The bottom line is, who decides what is to be taken literally and what isn't, given that we have no solid basis upon which to decide that one thing is a fundamental truth and another is not? We have the Creeds (thanks be to God!) to summarize what we all believe, and the old reliable "what that really means..." when the Word threatens to damage our most dearly held doctrines. But it looks like for the most parft it's every man for himself.

Comments?

I would agree that common sense is not a good demarcation between literal and figuratively.

But I would argue that for the most part the Bible does and will interpret itself. And it is not the lack of common sense that gets in the way…. but rather religious doctrine and beliefs.

For example → what is a day. God answers that in Genesis 1. Gen 1:5, Gen 1:8, Gen 1:13, Gen 1:19, Gen 1:23, Gen 1:31,.

If you read much of the Bible, you will know that when the words morning or evening are in the singular …it can be all or part or a day. And if people want to argue how long 24 hours was back then …”tell it to the tourists” ….cuz I don’t care.


As for communion . ..We wont agree ….But when words are not true to fact or outside of the normalcy of speech…it then is a figure of speech. Is the bread really Christ body is the wine really his blood.

Figures of speech are used throughout the Bible …but predominantly in the OT due to the limits of the Hebrew language.

Is the bread really Christ body…. is the wine really his blood. The whole Transubstantiation thing for me crosses the line by taking a figure of speech into a mystical transformation that was designed by man.

This is what is written to the Church of God for today. We are to do it in remembrance (or commemoration) of what Christ went through and accomplished … and in that remembrance we note that by His stripes we were healed…. it is an accomplished reality when we believe it.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.


There are 219 known figure of speech… and at least 212 are used in the Bible… some of which have multiple variations. E.W Bullinger’s book “Figures of Speech used in the Bible” is some of the best work I have seen on these….. And there are idioms, eastern customs, and Orientalism which also have to be considered.
 
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BobRyan

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Is the bread really Christ body…. is the wine really his blood. The whole Transubstantiation thing for me crosses the line by taking a figure of speech into a mystical transformation that was designed by man.
IN John 6 Jesus explains those figures of speech as being a reference to accepting His WORDS of LIFE and believing His teaching. So all the while using the same figures of speech in John 6 - neither the faithless nor the faithful disciples attempt to bite Christ nor do they see him as literal bread falling out of the sky. The faithful ones see that He is using a figure of speech- symbolism of the same form seen in Deut 8 with Manna
 
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Jipsah

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IN John 6 Jesus explains those figures of speech as being a reference to accepting His WORDS of LIFE and believing His teaching. So all the while using the same figures of speech in John 6 - neither the faithless nor the faithful disciples attempt to bite Christ nor do they see him as literal bread falling out of the sky. The faithful ones see that He is using a figure of speech- symbolism of the same form seen in Deut 8 with Manna
And so much for any idea of literalism except as it serves your doctrine.
 
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BobRyan

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And so much for any idea of literalism except as it serves your doctrine.
If we ignore every detail in the Bible -- then I suppose that suggestion works a little. But I choose the details in the Bible .,.. for example the ones in John 6 and in 1 Cor 11.
 
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Jipsah

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Which makes many people happy when they think of the virgin birth, the miracles of Christ, His bodily resurrection and ascension to heaven.
But the moment this act of taking the Bible literally is used consistently across the board - and it gets to the first 9 chapters of Genesis -- well then, that's another thing altogether for 'some'.
Which makes my point that it all depends on whose ox is being gored. Everyone is a literalist when it serves their purposes, and everything is a metaphor when a literal meaning runs counter to your own beliefs. I.E posturing about literalism is just that - posturing.
Hmm.. so then no real way to have trust in the virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ, the bodily ascension of Christ , His miracles?
If you don't believe in the Real Presence? No. That saw cuts both ways.

But in the case of John 6 (which is not the Eucharist, not the last supper) -- Jesus explains the symbols and what they mean.
Sure, everyone has to justify their own position at all costs, and literalism be blowed. "See, He didn't really mean that...", right? <Laugh>
No it does not. At least not in Genesis 1 and 2.
But the geological account, also provided by God, sends a very different message. I happen tO take that literally, where you do not. All depends on the tune you're playing.

In Genesis 1 the Earth and all life on it, as well as the Sun and moon (The TWO great lights made on day 4) - are i that 7 day week - but not the entire universe. A "detail" some would skim over at times - since it helps them with another agenda.
You're telling me why you take some things literally and some as merely metephorical, but that's what I said in the OP, wasn't it? Our doctrines determine our exegesis rather than the other way around, hence the examples used. If we were both Baptists or some such, we'd almost certainly agree on what is literal and what isn't, and it would all came straight from the Baptist Manual (if they have one, anyway.)
Cor 11 Paul tells us he said it is a memorial "in rememberance of Me" - and that as often as we drink that cup and eat that bread we "proclaim" the Lord's death until He comes. It is a memorial service.
And you wisely leave off the rest of what St. Paul said on 1 Cor 11 because, in my view positively, and in your potentially, it knocks your doctrine into a cocked hat. Y'all do that a lot, and so do we. I'm simply willing to admit it. When I was a pentecostalist I went along with the "Memorial Snack" view. Now as an Anglo-Catholic I reject it utterly. The Scripture hasn't changed, but my understanding of it has. (FWIW, I never believed that Genesis 1 was literal, though, although most of my fellow Charismatics did.)

Some people often skim over those details as well.
And some feel the need to duct-tape unrelated Scriptures together with knight-jump exegesis to get out of a doctrinal dilemma that some other Scripture leaves them in. I don't feel the need to work that hard if it isn't a matter involving salvation. If you want to believe that Creation took 6 days down to the nanosecond it suits me fine, because in the end I don't think it matters. If I'm wrong on that then I'm sure I'll be squared away after I leave here.
The details - in the text.
And the meaning of the text is in the doctrine viewpoint of the reader. Which is, I believe, were we came in.
 
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Jipsah

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So then there is 'sola scriptura" testing on the one hand.

And sola-creed or sola-tradition testing on the other.
And I'm obviously of the latter view. Even the Canon of Scripture itself is a matter of holy tradition. But even those of us who claim to hold to Sola Scriptura are altogether to chuck a "what that really means..." or two when their doctrine is at risk. At come right down to it, most if not all Christian groups hsave their own traditions that they hold dearer than Scripture, hence the necessity to keep the "WTRM" devise loose in their scabbard when a favorite doctrine is at risk.
 
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Jipsah

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I would agree that common sense is not a good demarcation between literal and figuratively.
But I would argue that for the most part the Bible does and will interpret itself.
And you'll be amazed and shocked at how often it will "interpret itself" to mean what you thought it did in the first place.
And it is not the lack of common sense that gets in the way…. but rather religious doctrine and beliefs.
Just so.
If you read much of the Bible, you will know that when the words morning or evening are in the singular …it can be all or part or a day. And if people want to argue how long 24 hours was back then …”tell it to the tourists” ….cuz I don’t care.
So your group takes Genesis literally. Suits me. I'm betting I'd have known that right out the gate in you'd had a denomination listed on your profile.
As for communion . ..We wont agree
Whis is strange, innit, given that it's the words of our Lord Himself, and hammered home by St. Paul., and given your literal view of Genesis, which is, in the end, not nearly as important. But the pattern holds, we tend to take from Scripture what we brought with us.
….But when words are not true to fact or outside of the normalcy of speech…it then is a figure of speech. Is the bread really Christ body is the wine really his blood.
Given the fact that those words were spoken by He Who commanded the universe to exist I'm willing to err on the side literalism in this case. Which is good because that's what Anglo-Catholics believe.

There are 219 known figure of speech… and at least 212 are used in the Bible… some of which have multiple variations. E.W Bullinger’s book “Figures of Speech used in the Bible” is some of the best work I have seen on these….. And there are idioms, eastern customs, and Orientalism which also have to be considered.
Not many figures of speech provide you the opportunity to eat and drink damnation if you get 'em wrong, and I don't see how one can discern the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist if you never believed it was there in the first place. Just sayin'
 
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IN John 6 Jesus explains those figures of speech
And so say all SDAs, as that is their doctrine. Just as I said in the OP, you literalize, or symbolize, Scriptures based on what you already believe.
 
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Jipsah

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If we ignore every detail in the Bible -- then I suppose that suggestion works a little. But I choose the details in the Bible .,.. for example the ones in John 6 and in 1 Cor 11.
Including the ones you so pointedly ignore in 1 Cor 11 because they don't jibe with your doctrine! :cool:
 
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Diamond7

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The rubric that literalists generally claim to follow is: "“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” That sounds very reasonable, but is based one glaring fallacy - that there is no generally agreed upon authority for what can be considered "common sense", and what are to be considered "axiomatic and fundamental truths".
The interpretation of scripture is influenced by cultural, historical, and linguistic factors, which can complicate matters. As a result, the interpretation of scripture is often a highly subjective and contested process, with different scholars and communities offering different perspectives.

Ultimately, the rubric that literalists claim to follow is only one approach to interpreting scripture, and it is not necessarily the only or the most valid one. Other approaches, such as contextual or literary approaches, may offer different insights into the meaning of scripture.
 
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Jipsah

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And I'm obviously of the latter view. Even the Canon of Scripture itself is a matter of holy tradition. But even those of us who claim to hold to Sola Scriptura are altogether WILLING to chuck a "what that really means..." or two when their doctrine is at risk. Come right down to it, most if not all Christian groups save their own traditions that they hold dearer than Scripture, hence the necessity to keep the "WTRM" devise loose in their scabbard when a favorite doctrine is at risk.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I just stole this tag from anpother user here (AV1611VET) "The Bible says it, that settles it." The general idea is that Scripture should generally be taken literally as written.

The rubric that literalists generally claim to follow is: "“When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.” That sounds very reasonable, but is based one glaring fallacy - that there is no generally agreed upon authority for what can be considered "common sense", and what are to be considered "axiomatic and fundamental truths".

What we find is that what is treated common sense and/or as fundamental truths depends entirely one one's doctrinal viewpoint or sectarian presuppositions. For example, in recent discussions in these forums, posters have been at odds over two different unrelated ideas, one, that God created the universe in literal six 24 hour solar days, and that the other, that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are the literal Body and Blood of our Lord.

Both groups base their positions on fact that they're based on the "plain sense of Scripture". Scripture does in fact say that the universe was created in six days. Our Lord did in fact say "take, eat, this is My Body". Taken simply as written, they carry roughly equal weight. But doctrinally, the acceptance or rejection of the of the literal words those passages are make-or-break matters, and holding the "correct" meaning of them is of vital imprtance.

To all Catholics (Roman, Orthodox, Anglo, etc), as well as most of the "traditionalist" denominations the Real Presence of the Lord's Body and Blood in the Eucharist is extremely important, while to more modern groups it's just part of a remembrance ceremony. To the more modern Protestant groups the believing the literal 6 Days of Creation is a matter of declaring one's rejection of secularism and dedication to the authority of God's Word, while to the Traditionalists it's simply a symbolic account of God's creation of the universe.

The bottom line is, who decides what is to be taken literally and what isn't, given that we have no solid basis upon which to decide that one thing is a fundamental truth and another is not? We have the Creeds (thanks be to God!) to summarize what we all believe, and the old reliable "what that really means..." when the Word threatens to damage our most dearly held doctrines. But it looks like for the most parft it's every man for himself.

Comments?
Why do you call it a myth? Seems to me that being a literalist is an attitude or a philosophy not a myth. Certainly, there are real people that do in reality take the attitude or believe in the philosophy that the Bible is completely literal. They are not mythical creatures. Disagreeing with them does not make them or their philosophy become fictional.
 
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Jipsah

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Why do you call it a myth? Seems to me that being a literalist is an attitude or a philosophy not a myth.
It's generally just a claim, because those who proclaim themselves to be literalists the loudest will smybolicize like mad on stuff that they think damages their doctrinal positions.
Certainly, there are real people that do in reality take the attitude or believe in the philosophy that the Bible is completely literal.
The next one I meet will make a grand total of 1.

They are not mythical creatures. Disagreeing with them does not make them or their philosophy become fictional.
Neither does it make them actually literalists. They're literalists as long as it suits their purposes.
 
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The bottom line is, who decides what is to be taken literally and what isn't, given that we have no solid basis upon which to decide that one thing is a fundamental truth and another is not? We have the Creeds (thanks be to God!) to summarize what we all believe, and the old reliable "what that really means..." when the Word threatens to damage our most dearly held doctrines. But it looks like for the most parft it's every man for himself.

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As a literalist there are 5 points that I use.

1. Which book of the Bible am I reading from?
Let the rivers clap their hands; Let the hills be joyful together Psalm 98:8
If a passage comes from Psalms then its poetry and song meant to convey a mind picture or a feeling rather then something literal such as Exodus 20:15 You shall not steal.

2. What does the surrounding scripture or the entirety of the chapter have to say?
Matthew 13 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.
Verse 10 lets me know this is a parable, a story to teach a truth, not that Jesus was literally scattering seed.
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

3.What do other scriptures have to say about it? Do they back up the first view I took or do they show another side that should be taken into consideration?
Genesis 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


4. Does the Hebrew or Greek shed more light or even change the meaning?
John 21:15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”
The Greek tells us this love was agapas love. The type of love God has for us, unconditional love. Not the affection, friendship, eros forms of love.

5. Have I prayed and asked the Holy Spirit to make the scripture clear?

At the end of the day it is each person's Conscience and God.
 
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"What that really means" is not a dirty word.

It's a way of clarifying one's point of view.
Or rather "clarifying" Scripture so that it agrees with your doctrinal presuppositions.
 
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