Looking for at least one other serious Bible student - regarding end times.

BobRyan said:

In all the translations above we see "Clouds of heaven" where the Son of man comes from when viewed from Earth. We see saints gathered from that same heaven by Angels. They don't need to gather saints if the saints are already with the angels. This is about Jesus coming to Earth - appearing in the sky and the saints being gathered from the sky so they can be with the LORD.

Just as in NASB and NASB1955 we see the sign of the Son of man "appear in the sky", Son of man coming on "clouds of sky" - and the saints gathered from that same sky

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The cloud in Scripture symbolizes God's GLORY. For example:

Exodus 40:35

• "And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the Glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle".

Numbers 16:42

• "And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared."

1st Kings 8:11

• "So that the Priests could not stand to minister because of the Cloud, because the Glory of the Lord had filled the house of the Lord."

And many other such verses. The Cloud SIGNIFIES the Glory of God. Not an actual physical cloud made up of waterdrops in the sky. Therefore, the clouds of heaven in the verses that you quote actually talk about the GLORY of God. Thus, Jesus Christ will return in the Glory of God, not literal clouds in the sky.

BobRyan said:

2 Thess 1:
6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day

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This passage of Scripture is not describing the Glorious Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. It is an event before then –‘ when He comes in blazing fire and reveals His glory among His own’. As we see in Revelation 7:9-13, & 14:1
It does not fit how He destroys the armies that are attacking Jerusalem at His Return, then how the whole world will see Him.

It is another of the over 100 Prophesies which describe the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, The Sixth Seal event that commences all the end time things, leading up to Jesus visible Return.

BobRyan said:

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (NASB)(NASB 1955)

BTW "good on you" as they say. I am looking for that sort of "details in the chapter" response whether it agrees with my POV not.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(NKJV)

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. KJV

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof. (YLT)

In all the translations above we see "Clouds of heaven" where the Son of man comes from when viewed from Earth. We see saints gathered from that same heaven by Angels. They don't need to gather saints if the saints are already with the angels. This is about Jesus coming to Earth - appearing in the sky and the saints being gathered from the sky so they can be with the LORD.

Just as in NASB and NASB1955 we see the sign of the Son of man "appear in the sky", Son of man coming on "clouds of sky" - and the saints gathered from that same sky



Given that this where the clouds are -- in all those translations above and is where Jesus appears at his coming... I don't see this as the impossible rendering - and they all seem to make that connection.

But in the context of "Christ coming to Earth" it is normal for the reader to expect that "clouds are in our literal sky" and Jesus appears coming on clouds of the sky, "clouds of heaven"

Daniel 7 has a different context. Daniel 7 shows the Son of Man coming to the "Ancient of Days" in heaven (the third heaven) and a courtroom setup in heaven. No reference at all to this being a coming to Earth, (Like was the coming to Earth in Matt 24) , or tribes of Earth seeing it . the context in Dan 7 is not an earthly court.

But in Matt 24 the context is Christ's coming to Earth.

In Matt 24 it not the case of tribes of Earth looking into what Paul calls 'the third heaven' rather it is the case of Christ coming to Earth, and tribes on Earth seeing him in the clouds of the sky.

There is nothing in the chapter that argues against that - even in your post you are not pointing to some detail in the chapter telling us that the clouds of the sky, the clouds of heaven, (where heaven is where the birds fly according to Gen 1:20).

Gen 1: 20 (KJV/NKJV/NASB) Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens. (Clearly that is not the third heaven that Paul references - having its birds made on Planet Earth's 5th day)
20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”

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Bob, the reason it is not the clouds of the sky of earth's atmosphere at that time, but clouds of (the third) heaven - is because before Jesus descends to earth - the second heaven, i.e. the cosmos made up of the stars, is parted like a curtain on a stage - and the world looking up and in awe sees the third heaven with its billowing clouds and see Jesus in His Glory, before the throne of God, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14), with judgment on the wicked His intent. That's what the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17 describes.

That scene is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven of Matthew 24:30a.

In reaction, the kings of the earth will choose to make war on Jesus, and gather their armies at Armageddon.

Once assembled, Jesus descends to earth, as the world sees Him coming in the clouds of (the third) heaven, and accompanied by the armies of (the third) heaven

Will Jesus be enveloped in those clouds as he enters the earth's atmosphere? I don't think so. Which, I agree with you that the event of Jesus destroying the armies gathered to make war on Him takes place on earth.

Bob, the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 from the four corners of heaven, and same said in Deuteronomy 30:1-6, is a figure of speech to mean from the furthest distant corners of the world, back to the land of Israel.

It is not a referral to the rapture in Matthew 24:31.

Blade said:

Hi.. your looking for something different? Yet you said "since few if any are willing to consider that they are wrong about something and will not accept a text in opposition to their view no matter how clear it is.". First I don't see anyone "slamming a denomination". 2nd words matter you said "few if any" so you have talked to most? Every word matters to God if we want truth then we need to speak true. No offense but for me you come across as your right and we just are not willing to admit we can be wrong.

So this is a video of SDA. So you might want to ask other SDA about this. IF this was "I personally believe blah blah blah and this is why. What do you think" Then I would be happy to talk. See I can talk since I am not here for any denomination. I can be wrong. Give you a hint the flood. What no one knows is how many were on the earth could have been billions. All of them out of 8 "every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.". None missed it they were never looking never had a good thought. Noah was a just man that walked with God and found favor. Every word matters so when GOD said "blameless in his generation; " hmm why use the word generation.

Rapture.. be nice if we would remind the body of Christ that He will come in the clouds voice shout trump dead rise we change go up together. This will happen but no one knows when pre mid or post. So be wise to be watching ready for Him now. Then be nice to remind people that in Rev after Chapter 4 the Church is not ever talked about. Then about the world worshiping the beast taking its mark. It always makes me wonder why some only talk about the MARK! Well to get to the mark means you already worshipped the beast in that case you lost forever. Hmm but was there not something written before this? Something like all those whos names were written in the Lambs book before the foundation of the world will never worship the beast. Blah blah blah

All of what I said is just what I read and then very badly put in to words haha. If I was debating I would do a much better job but the point is.. I will talk about what the BIBLE says not what some denomination says. In truth I have not talked to most have talked to a few.

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Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Foolish here is Gr. moros-it is where our word moron comes from; Webster’s 3rd collegiate edition definition is -1) a retarded person mentally equal to a child between 8 and 12 years of age. 2) Stupid.

This is CHRIST implication that a half of professed Christians are stupid:

Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

These days I ‘m reminded of the parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the return of the bride groom; it is in reference to confessed Christians of the end times because they are waiting for the return of CHRIST(bridegroom) in the latter days. The great lesson of the parable is to watch and be ready for no one knows the exact time and when you come to that knowledge that HE has returned then it will be too late.

Christians are to reflect the light (truth) of CHRIST, if no oil (truth/wisdom/understanding) to light the candles they are in darkness, if they are in darkness they do nothing to give light to anyone else. If they are not spreading light than they are spreading/living in darkness. There is no in between; you are either with GOD or against, GOD considers HIS chosen people to be soddish..

CHRIST is implying here that half of professed Christians who will not be allowed in the Wedding feast. They will knock on the door proclaiming they are Christians who say they have even cast out demons in the name of CHRIST, but CHRIST says “depart from me for I know you not”.

Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Meaning there so called religion was false and never taught them the truth where they stay alert; for if it did they would be just as the other half that was wise. Instead of studying the WORD and learning to become wise they just listen to man rather than GOD. They thought they could just keep doing what the world was doing and be saved at last minute right before Bridegroom comes, but HE comes when least expected; have to always be on watch studying; learning the signs and seals so you are not caught off guard; They had no truth and tried to get from the 5 wise but there was not time. They were of the world and did not stand up when they had the chance. They sat back and got along to get along but this is not the doctrine of CHRIST. Paul was bold and straight to the point! There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because of the separation; I pray that Christian’s eyes are opened for I would like to see all my brothers and sisters in CHRIST to be at the feast. Sadly they want be; many are good people who sat in pews their whole life but were not fed meat when they needed it, but we have the millennium to teach and gather as many as will come.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

They went out to buy truth/salvation but who were they going to get it from? All those that understood and have truth were at the feast, only ones left to get truth would be of the darkness and therefore it would not serve them, you can’t buy salvation!

What is amazing is half of them at last minute believed they could go out into the darkness and buy their salvation from false religions and prophets because that is all that is left to get from. As Christians we put our rest in CHRIST every day and are prepared at any moment watching/waiting, studying the WORD so we have the seals and signs through HIS letter to us firmly implanted in our minds.

The oil in the lamps represents the truth/wisdom where 5 had the true WORD of GOD but the other five had no truth in them, half of them; they tarried and waited until last minute to try and study the WORD of GOD but found out too late. This shows that half of the professed Christians around the world do not know the truth.

If census and polls are correct; roughly 8 billion people in the world, of those there are 1/3rd who confesses to be Christian roughly 2.6 billion confessed Christians around the world that means 1.3 billion Christians of these end times will make it to the feast out of 8 billion. Satan goes after Christians and uses scripture and the pulpit against them for he already has the rest.

SORRY I posted wrong spot-repost:
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Foolish here is Gr. moros-it is where our word moron comes from; Webster’s 3rd collegiate edition definition is -1) a retarded person mentally equal to a child between 8 and 12 years of age. 2) Stupid.
This is CHRIST implication that a half of professed Christians are stupid:
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
These days I ‘m reminded of the parable of the 10 virgins waiting for the return of the bride groom; it is in reference to confessed Christians of the end times because they are waiting for the return of CHRIST(bridegroom) in the latter days. The great lesson of the parable is to watch and be ready for no one knows the exact time and when you come to that knowledge that HE has returned then it will be too late.
Christians are to reflect the light (truth) of CHRIST, if no oil (truth/wisdom/understanding) to light the candles they are in darkness, if they are in darkness they do nothing to give light to anyone else. If they are not spreading light than they are spreading/living in darkness. There is no in between; you are either with GOD or against, GOD considers HIS chosen people to be soddish..
CHRIST is implying here that half of professed Christians who will not be allowed in the Wedding feast. They will knock on the door proclaiming they are Christians who say they have even cast out demons in the name of CHRIST, but CHRIST says “depart from me for I know you not”.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Meaning there so called religion was false and never taught them the truth where they stay alert; for if it did they would be just as the other half that was wise. Instead of studying the WORD and learning to become wise they just listen to man rather than GOD. They thought they could just keep doing what the world was doing and be saved at last minute right before Bridegroom comes, but HE comes when least expected; have to always be on watch studying; learning the signs and seals so you are not caught off guard; They had no truth and tried to get from the 5 wise but there was not time. They were of the world and did not stand up when they had the chance. They sat back and got along to get along but this is not the doctrine of CHRIST. Paul was bold and straight to the point! There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth because of the separation; I pray that Christian’s eyes are opened for I would like to see all my brothers and sisters in CHRIST to be at the feast. Sadly they want be; many are good people who sat in pews their whole life but were not fed meat when they needed it, but we have the millennium to teach and gather as many as will come.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
They went out to buy truth/salvation but who were they going to get it from? All those that understood and have truth were at the feast, only ones left to get truth would be of the darkness and therefore it would not serve them, you can’t buy salvation!
What is amazing is half of them at last minute believed they could go out into the darkness and buy their salvation from false religions and prophets because that is all that is left to get from. As Christians we put our rest in CHRIST every day and are prepared at any moment watching/waiting, studying the WORD so we have the seals and signs through HIS letter to us firmly implanted in our minds.


The oil in the lamps represents the truth/wisdom where 5 had the true WORD of GOD but the other five had no truth in them, half of them; they tarried and waited until last minute to try and study the WORD of GOD but found out too late. This shows that half of the professed Christians around the world do not know the truth. Remember CHRIST is talking about those who are waiting for the Bridegroom, meaning in latter days; that's us in this time. I find it astonishing half today lose this blessing until I look around.

If census and polls are correct; roughly 8 billion people in the world, of those there are 1/3rd who confesses to be Christian roughly 2.6 billion confessed Christians around the world that means 1.3 billion Christians of these end times will make it to the feast out of 8 billion. Satan goes after Christians and uses scripture and the pulpit against them for he already has the rest. Like I said thankfully we have the Millennium to bring many back to the truth; of all those good people who sat in pews their whole life never learning. There are many who have known sense a young age that there is more to GODS WORD than what they are being taught, when they hear the truth they know for the HOLY SPIRIT moves them to truth. How many of you will CHRIST say "well done my good and faithful servant"?

BobRyan said:

Near the start of this sermon he gives some examples of historic failures to take end-time, crisis, critical events "seriously".

...

The video makes the argument that "bad doctrine has consequences" as in the case of Eve, as in the case of those that "missed the boat".

...

One thing that stands out is that "getting it wrong" was not just "mildly inconvenient on some tiny level" - but in fact was fatal.

Click to expand...

BobRyan said:

My view is that it does matter and that the "really does not matter" endings reveal a problem somewhere in the scenario being proposed.

​

The video proposes a more serious option where it DOES matter at the end of the world JUST LIKE it mattered in the case of Eve, and Noah, and John the baptizer and in the days of Paul etc.

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Actually, I agree with your post. Getting it wrong could have fatal consequences. I just don't think anyone will listen.

I watched about half the video, but I didn't get the "more serious option" that was presented in the video.

The chief problem I see is that nobody wants to be uncomfortable. People have flat out told me that they would rather just die. Rather than deal with threats that are coming, they want to live their lives normally and then just die. IMO, this is about 99% of the people.

I have laid out arguments that show World War III is near. These arguments show news, Bible prophecy and even theory about how societies work that all point to a big war that is near. Zero interest because of fear. What will I do? Where will I go? How will I survive?

Take a look at this video: Tucker: The trans movement is targeting Christians - YouTube

Do you think God is going to allow this Woke nuttiness to continue long?

In order to "get it", one must make a slight change in mindset concerning Bible prophecy:

- The return of Jesus is not about the day Jesus returns. It's about the events that shortly precede that day.

These events are in play right now. It is these events that will catch everyone off-guard.

Matthew 25:30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

In the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-28), the 1-talent guy is notable. He is afraid that Jesus reaps were he does not sow. He becomes afraid when Jesus begins to reap the weeds. Our 1-talent guy is living with the weeds and doesn't move to get out of the way, because he is afraid. He dies along with everyone else.

Better to die than be inconvenienced.

I believe that reaping is ready to start in 1 or 2 years. All those threats of war directed at America by Russia and China will eventually happen.

BobRyan said:

It's harder to find than you might think. A lot of people view forums like this one on endtimes as not really for serious Bible students since few if any are willing to consider that they are wrong about something and will not accept a text in opposition to their view no matter how clear it is.

So let's propose something a bit more serious and reasonable --

Starting at 55:58 in that video of a church service
(keep watching to see the BIG BANG near the end from Rev 6)

near the start of this sermon he gives some examples of historic failures to take end-time, crisis, critical events "seriously".

1. The Flood -- The entire planet gets it wrong - only 8 people get it right.
And the "thinking" ??

"I am not sure if Noah is right - so I may not join him but I will be near enough - so that when I see rain start to form/fall, or hear thunder, I will get in the boat".​

And of course the "Flaw" in that not-serious solution is that the door of the ark closed seven days BEFORE the rain starts to fall according to Gen 7.

2. The coming of the Messiah - "He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1:11 - the "nation got it wrong".
And "the thinking"??

" Why should I worry about which of all these fake messiah claims are legit when I can just wait until some so-called Messiah comes along and frees us from the Romans - as soon as I see him do that I will join in and miss all the fake false messiahs".​

And the flaw -- is that they would reject the Is 53 Messiah that came to save the world from sin.

The video makes the argument that "bad doctrine has consequences" as in the case of Eve, as in the case of those that "missed the boat".


======================================= part I
The video above is about Rev 13 and 14 and the first part (Part I) is referenced a few times in that video so I am including it here

Title: Rev 13 – “The mark of the beast”

Begins at 00:00
=======================================================

One thing that stands out is that "getting it wrong" was not just "mildly inconvenient on some tiny level" - but in fact was fatal.


Next the video gets into our current situation - where we are dealing with end time events for planet Earth.

1. Rapture: (many flavors of this idea in the Bible some of them discussed in the sermon)

Almost all the popular versions have NO DOWNSIDE to getting the rapture teaching wrong. No matter what you are thinking or expecting you get raptured anyway as a Christian. So why waste your time trying to figure out the details of that topic - as long as you are a Christian. Unlike ALL the real examples in the Bible where getting it wrong matters. (Even though I do accept a version of the Rapture teaching as being in scripture)​

2. No Rapture; (several flavors of this)

Almost all the popular versions have NO DOWNSIDE to getting the no-rapture teaching wrong. No matter what you are thinking or expecting you get the wonderful ending of Christ on Earth fixing everything for you in the end. (And even I view Christ as fixing things on Earth but not in the typical millennial kingdom on Earth fashion)​

​

So why waste your time solving the details on that topic - as long as you are a Christian. Since in that case - and unlike ALL the real examples in the Bible where getting it wrong matters) it matters not if you figure out the details.​

​

My view is that it does matter (just as in all major crisis examples) and that the "it really does not matter" endings reveal a problem somewhere in the scenario being proposed.

​

The video proposes a more serious option where it DOES matter at the end of the world JUST LIKE it mattered in the case of Eve, and Noah, and John the baptizer and in the days of Paul etc

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One thing is certain - holding the "correct" ideas about the nd Times has been utterly irrelevant to every Christian who has died from the resurrection of our Lord to now. Give my current age, it seems very unlikely to make any substantial difference to me.

BobRyan said:

1. I don't have to listen to any view that is not my own if I choose not to

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That's true on any topic you'd care to name.

BobRyan said:

2. I choose to only have bad things to say about people or views that are not my own rather than looking at details in that view

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Physician...

BobRyan said:

3. I already looked at Bible details to get to my current view and don't have time to look any further

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Fair play. I'd recommend spending most of out time in the Gospels.

BobRyan said:

By sparing us those posts you are doing a big favor to us all in the spirit of open discussion. I thank you in advance.

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You mean those aren't part of an "open discussion"? Hmmmm....

BobRyan said:

We already have tons of "That is not what I already think" responses on this board

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None of them being yours, of course.

BobRyan said:

Deut 30 is not about the coming to Christ back to planet Earth to get the saints.

Matt 24:29-31 on the other hand describes that very thing. Making it - the rapture.

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The rapture event includes the resurrection of the dead in Christ as well. No resurrection of the dead in Matthew 24:31.

Also, the rapture is the means of escape in Luke 21:34-36 by which Christians don't have to go through the great tribulation.

BobRyan said:

Deut 30 is not about the coming to Christ back to planet Earth to get the saints.

Matt 24:29-31 on the other hand describes that very thing. Making it - the rapture.

So then a good example of NOT describing the return of Christ in the sky where all tribes of the Earth see Him and mourn -- is

​

Deut 30:“So it will be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have placed before you, and you call them to mind in all the nations where the Lord your God has scattered you, 2 and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul in accordance with everything that I am commanding you today, you and your sons, 3 then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If any of your scattered countrymen are at the ends of the earth, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will be good to you and make you more numerous than your fathers.​

And a good example of Christ's return - His coming, where HE IS doing that very thing.

Matt 24:3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”​

​

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (NASB)​

​

Nothing in Matt 24 points to Duet 30 nor requires that all the details in Matt 24 must be really what Deut 30 is talking about. There are two entirely different topics.

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Doug is correct that the Deut 30 passage is referring to Matt 24:29-31, but he is incorrect in thinking that there is a 'whisked away' rapture. What he and you both think of as a 'rapture' is this 'gathering'.

The people who are being gathered are the people who fled the abomination! (Matthew 24:16).

Then false christs arise - some are gathered to Jesus, some to the others. The ones that were gathered to Jesus become the symbolic 'armies of heaven'.

It really is not complicated.

BobRyan said:

Deut 30 is before the Babylonian captivity - from which Israel DID return long BEFORE Christ makes his prediction in Matt 24

It is not possible to insert Matt 24:29-31 details in to Deut 30 and it is not logical that the captivity and dispersion of Israel in both Syrian and Babylonian captivity - where they are returned from Babylonian captivity -- is omitted from the future view of the nation as of Deut 30.

Nothing in the question addressed in Matt 24 is limited to local context and "just Israel"

3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Nothing in the response of Christ requires that all the details be limited to local context and "just Israel"

Matt 24​

4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many people.​

That addresses one part of the question "the sign of YOUR coming" (ie the second coming of Christ - since they already are staring at Christ literally in his first coming). The removes the context from "just local events"

Matt 24:​

6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.​

Clearly nothing in vs 6-7 is limited to "only will happen near the middle east"

Matt 24:​

9 “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will rise up and mislead many people. 12 And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will become cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved.​

Clearly the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of saints for such a long period of time between the first and second coming of Christ - qualifies to be included in that huge tribulation prediction - not at all limited to "just the middle east"

Matt 24:​

14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

No way to limit the whole world in vs 14 to "Just the middle east" and no question that the gospel has not yet gone out to all the world even as of this date - though it is very close.


An event specific to the destruction of Jerusalem near 70 A.D. even though some of it has double application - in vs 15-20

Matt 24:​

15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—let the reader understand— 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house. 18 And whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 Moreover, pray that when you flee, it will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.​

vs 21-22 is impossible to limit to "just the middle east" or just some time in the past. The 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints also fits into this prediction as one of the qualifying events that applies to the prediction

Matt 24:​

21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.​

Next we have fake second coming events...with GREAT signs and wonders so amazing as to deceive the very elect if they are not listening to Christ's "in advance" warning and by that alone, prevented from being deceived

Matt 24:​

23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.​

World wide visible appearing of Christ in vs 23-27 so that any report of the form "Jesus just returned and he is over in such and such a place" is your first clue that it is one of the fake second coming signs. The gigantic signs-and-wonders fake second coming event predicted in these verses has not happened yet - not by a long shot.

Vs 29 is AFTER that massive signs-and-wonders fake second coming of vs 24 above.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.​

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Google "Dark Day" to see a small example of part of that future prediction​

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Vs 30-31 is a global world-wide event as the Son of man "appears in the sky" for all mankind to see.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ​

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Of the many efforts to downsize vs 30 none of them equal the scope and magnitude of the event described by Christ in vs 30 and that is perhaps the easiest and most obvious detail of all

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

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The saints are 'in the sky' because of the 1 Thess 4:13-18 rapture event where we are "caught up together with them to MEET the Lord IN the air"
and it is from that "in the sky" location that the angels gather the elect.

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Deut 30 is before the Babylonian captivity - from which Israel DID return long BEFORE Christ makes his prediction in Matt 24

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Jesus is referring to it - because it is applicable, it is part of the Deut blessings for obedience. Not sure what you are trying to say here.

I'm not sure what you are trying to show/ prove by saying the events of Revelation are not local. Of course, they are not necessarily localized.

As to '1260 years' of tribulation? Why would anyone take this seriously?

John 17:15 is all one needs to read to disprove the notion of the whisked away rapture. Being gathered is what is to be understood.

BobRyan said:

Four details in the video that stand out.

Matt 24:29-31 - the rapture.

1. Rapture takes place "after the tribulation" vs 29.. Consider the option that this fact is a good thing to notice... it is true just as stated.
2. Another point it makes is the 2 Thess 1:6-8 fact that all the lost are destroyed at the appearing of Christ for the rapture.
3. Another point it makes is that the 1 Thess 4:13-18 rapture takes all the saints to heaven

4. And the result is that Jer 4:23-26 condition of the earth desolate, the cities all destroyed by God's wrath alone - and "no humans" left on planet Earth. (at least during the 1000 year millennium prior to Christ's return to Earth to judge the wicked and setup His kingdom in the New Earth)

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1) The 'gathering' takes place after the abomination - people have fled from worshiping it, and will be gathered - after being scattered.

2) The beast is destroyed - after the tribulation. The beast is oppressing people who have been gathered ('saints').

3) Literally nowhere in the Bible does it say that people are 'raptured' to heaven. Nowhere. Even in these verses, it says 'in the air'. Do you think that Paul doesn't know the word for 'heaven'? Why doesn't he use it? Maybe he is referencing Jesus in Matt 24:29-31, and maybe Jesus is referencing Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

4) This is the destruction upon the wicked. There are still people on the earth, just in a reduced number. Of course there will be people during the millenium. The new earth arrives during the 7 bowl judgments - we will not have to wait a thousand years for that.

BobRyan said:

Deut 30 is before the Babylonian captivity - from which Israel DID return long BEFORE Christ makes his prediction in Matt 24

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Bob, the return to Israel from the Babylonian captivity was a partial regathering and was foretold that the Jews would serve the king of Babylon for 70 years before being returned.

Matthew 24:31, differently, corresponds to Ezekiel 39:28, which none of the children of Israel will remain in the nations, as all will be brought back to the land of Israel.

The rapture/resurrection event will be the powerful soul stirring come up hither voice of Jesus, that will translate the living into everlasting bodies, and taken to heaven, before the great tribulation begins.