How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

Clare73

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He didn't need to decree it to foreknow it.

I don't think so. I want to hear your view. From there I can possibly make an argument.
I'm not much into explaining the realm where there is no time. . .I'm too time-bound to see it all correctly.

I will say, since there is no time, how is there a "before" and "after"?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I have played in my mind the different "possibilities" and it's sometimes like it makes your head spin. It's hard for the mind to grasp the things of the Eternal, All knowing, Almighty God. The whole thing seems (oh, boy! I use that word a lot) to end up in philosophy.

Thanks for the reply btw! It was originally intended for Clare, but it was fine you responded.
Sorry, I must have missed that somehow. When I follow the links back, it shows addressed to me.

Edit: My bad, I see you were referring to the post before that one. And that would be a 'time' "before", though I suppose causal, too!
 
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I'm not much into explaining the realm where there is no time. . .I'm too time-bound to see it all correctly.

I will say, since there is no time, how is there a "before" and "after"?
Although this too is our reasoning, there is a causal "before" and "after", that demonstrates God at the head of causation. This is good doctrine, but our problem is in assuming anthropomorphisms to still apply, for example, that God should need to think a thing through before acting, and that he must decide to act before acting, and so on.
 
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Clare73

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He didn't need to decree it to foreknow it.
It's not about "needing" anything.
It's about what is.
He foreknew it because he had decreed it before the foundations of the world.
 
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zoidar

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It's not about "needing" anything.
It's about what is.
He foreknew it because he had decreed it before the foundations of the world.
It's almost like you hold to the decree and the foreknowledge is the same thing. Like two sides of the same coin.
 
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Clare73

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It's almost like you hold to the decree and the foreknowledge is the same thing. Like two sides of the same coin.
Foreknowledge is simply knowing in advance.
I can't "know" in advance, because I don't control all things. I can only plan in advance.
I plan to graduate from college in four years. That's the best I can guarantee--my plan.

Decree is ordaining in advance; e.g., the coming of the Messiah, when the world will end, the destruction of the earth by fire, the resurrection, the destiny of the redeemed and the damned, etc.

God knows in advance when the world will end, when the earth will be destroyed by fire, the time of the resurrection from the dead of all mankind, the destiny of the redeemed and the damned, etc. because he has foreordained when and what they shall be, just as he foreordained the coming of the Messiah during the Roman empire, which empire he also foreordained.

Two separate functions: foreordaining and foreknowing--one to establish future action, the other knowledge of that future action--so it is impossible that he who foreordains (establishes) all things does not, therefore, foreknow all things.
 
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zoidar

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Foreknowledge is simply knowing in advance.
I can't "know" in advance, because I don't control all things. I can only plan in advance.
I plan to graduate from college in four years. That's the best I can guarantee--my plan.

Decree is ordaining in advance; e.g., the coming of the Messiah, when the world will end, the destruction of the earth by fire, the resurrection, the destiny of the redeemed and the damned, etc.

God knows in advance when the world will end, when the earth will be destroyed by fire, the time of the resurrection from the dead of all mankind, the destiny of the redeemed and the damned, etc. because he has foreordained when and what they shall be, just as he foreordained the coming of the Messiah during the Roman empire, which empire he also foreordained.

Two separate functions: foreordaining and foreknowing--one to establish future action, the other knowledge of that future action--so it is impossible that he who foreordains (establishes) all things does not, therefore, foreknow all things.
God foreordaining important events like the crucifixion, the time of Christ return etc. I think all Christians agree on. What we don't agree on is that God foreordains every miniscule detail.
 
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God foreordaining important events like the crucifixion, the time of Christ return etc. I think all Christians agree on. What we don't agree on is that God foreordains every miniscule detail.
A good logician will tell you that every miniscule detail was set with the first causation. I have probably already told you about the poetic-sounding description of the Big Bang that some science writer wrote —something like, "The seeds of everything we see now were sown in the Big Bang." The necessary implication of the law of causation is that every single particular fact, (except for First Cause himself), is caused, and the cause of every cause, and so on, can be (theoretically) traced back to First Cause. Things don't become fact without a cause.

More remarkably, though completely related to the above, is the fact that while we can't see it, ALL fact bears on every other subsequent fact, in some way —whether very little so or very much so. We deal with things, for the sake of our limited ability to think, in terms of chains of causation, but don't see one chain bearing over onto the other chains. It's not just the butterfly wing stroke on the other side of the globe that helps cause the hurricane, but the way the air moved when I stubbed my toe and yelled, on this side of the globe, that helped make the difference as to exactly what direction that butterfly drifted when he first flapped his wings. Any one thing affects all other things that follow. God knows all that, because he caused all that.
 
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zoidar

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A good logician will tell you that every miniscule detail was set with the first causation. I have probably already told you about the poetic-sounding description of the Big Bang that some science writer wrote —something like, "The seeds of everything we see now were sown in the Big Bang." The necessary implication of the law of causation is that every single particular fact, (except for First Cause himself), is caused, and the cause of every cause, and so on, can be (theoretically) traced back to First Cause. Things don't become fact without a cause.

More remarkably, though completely related to the above, is the fact that while we can't see it, ALL fact bears on every other subsequent fact, in some way —whether very little so or very much so. We deal with things, for the sake of our limited ability to think, in terms of chains of causation, but don't see one chain bearing over onto the other chains. It's not just the butterfly wing stroke on the other side of the globe that helps cause the hurricane, but the way the air moved when I stubbed my toe and yelled, on this side of the globe, that helped make the difference as to exactly what direction that butterfly drifted when he first flapped his wings. Any one thing affects all other things that follow. God knows all that, because he caused all that.
A good logician is possibly not considering the spiritual side of things.
 
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Mark Quayle

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A good logician is possibly not considering the spiritual side of things.
Yet the spiritual side of things is logical. It may not be epistemic logic to the uninitiate, but it is logical.
 
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Clare73

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God foreordaining important events like the crucifixion, the time of Christ return etc. I think all Christians agree on. What we don't agree on is that God foreordains every miniscule detail.
Have I stated such?
However, it does include the redeemed (Ro 8:29-30).
 
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zoidar

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Have I stated such?
However, it does include the redeemed (Ro 8:29-30).
I thought you believed God decreed every single detail in the universe, or do you make a difference between decree and foreordain?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I thought you believed God decreed every single detail in the universe, or do you make a difference between decree and foreordain?
I'm the one who says he decreed every single detail.
 
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Ah, I thought it was a general belief among the Reformed.
May be, though @Clare73 doesn't label herself as Reformed nor Calvinist. I don't identify myself as Reformed either, as a matter of fact, though I defend whatever, about which they agree with me! (As a friend of mine says, "I love it when the old long-dead theologians agree with me!") I admit, however, that the writings of the Reformed and Calvinists has given me rich sources that better state what I believe than how I can state them.

The only reason I have 'Reformed' below my avatar is because it helps me more quickly find those with whom I agree, and, for other readers, more quickly to identify my position on most subjects.
 
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zoidar

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May be, though @Clare73 doesn't label herself as Reformed nor Calvinist. I don't identify myself as Reformed either, as a matter of fact, though I defend whatever, about which they agree with me! (As a friend of mine says, "I love it when the old long-dead theologians agree with me!") I admit, however, that the writings of the Reformed and Calvinists has given me rich sources that better state what I believe than how I can state them.

The only reason I have 'Reformed' below my avatar is because it helps me more quickly find those with whom I agree, and, for other readers, more quickly to identify my position on most subjects.
Clare, no she has not labeled herself as Reformed as far as I know, but seems to share all the teachings of Calvinism.
 
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Clare73

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I thought you believed God decreed every single detail in the universe, or do you make a difference between decree and foreordain?
I've not made that statement because I am not prepared to defend it.
 
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Clare73

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Clare, no she has not labeled herself as Reformed as far as I know, but seems to share all the teachings of Calvinism.
Clare shares all the teachings of the NT, in this case, those of Paul.
If Calvin agrees, well then. . .good for him!

I am a Paulist, not a "Calvinist."
 
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