Rocks have consciousness? Common Sense not needed? Evolutionism at any cost?

BobRyan said:

Pick one.

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Or both.

BobRyan said:

The Idea That Everything From Spoons to Stones is Conscious is Gaining Academic Credibility

“If you think about consciousness long enough, you either become a panpsychist or you go into administration.”

getpocket.com

" The Idea That Everything From Spoons to Stones is Conscious -- is Gaining Academic Credibility

“If you think about consciousness long enough, you either become a panpsychist or you go into administration.”​

If you think that dust gas and rocks will eventually come up with a rabbit, a horse or Einstein given enough mass, time and chance interaction -- the congratulations! You are on the road to rocks-have-the-attribute of consciousness to pass on to what eventually evolves from them.

OR else you may believe the Bible account of an infinitely wise and powerful God - that creates, organizes, causes things to exist that did not exist before such that our own intelligence is not inherited from rocks, but is created by a far more intelligent being than ourselves.

Pick one.

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I wouldn't discount that entirely. Because if you look, you are both saying the same thing. If you say a rock has a consciousness and a spoon has a consciousness it may not mean that there are two consciousnesses, but one singular consciousness permeating all things. A God "that creates, organizes, causes things to exist" also holds those things together:

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

So is your example a case of science refuting the existence of God, or is it science discovering the existence of God?

God always reveals Himself as Personal. We cannot separate His Energies from His Presence. If science discovers His Energies/Grace without God's direct guidance, then this is false/demonic.

HTacianas said:

I wouldn't discount that entirely. Because if you look, you are both saying the same thing. If you say a rock has a consciousness and a spoon has a consciousness it may not mean that there are two consciousnesses, but one singular consciousness permeating all things. A God "that creates, organizes, causes things to exist" also holds those things together:

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

So is your example a case of science refuting the existence of God, or is it science discovering the existence of God?

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Panpsychism is compatible with certain interpretations of Christianity.

However, it should be noted that certain forms of American Evangelicalism have traditionally reacted harshly to notions of divine immanence. John Harvey Kellog was excommunicated from the SDA for writing a book that seemed to support vitalistic notions of how the human body worked, for instance.

IoanC said:

God always reveals Himself as Personal. We cannot separate His Energies from His Presence. If science discovers His Energies/Grace without God's direct guidance, then this is false/demonic.

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God's personhood doesn't circumscribe God's infinitude. God's nature is superpersonal or superessential, transcending all categories of human thought.

FireDragon76 said:

Panpsychism is compatible with certain interpretations of Christianity.

However, it should be noted that certain forms of American Evangelicalism have traditionally reacted harshly to notions of divine immanence. John Harvey Kellog was excommunicated from the SDA for writing a book that seemed to support vitalistic notions of how the human body worked, for instance.

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Panpsychism is one way of saying there an intelligence that exists in creation. It's compatible with Christianity and science also up to the point that people want to quickly erase the idea based on their own ideology. Scientists themselves have reached the edge of an intelligence behind the universe then quickly retreat from it as being "religious". Religious people will retreat from panpsychism as being "scientific". Both groups find themselves bumping heads when they reach the same conclusions.

As far as American Evangelicals and SDAs go I don't put much stock in much of anything they have to say. Not only for their superstitious vew of science but for their theological views also.

FireDragon76 said:

God's personhood doesn't circumscribe God's infinitude. God's nature is superpersonal or superessential, transcending all categories of human thought.

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True, God's Essence is unknowable to those created by Him, but God is always Personal. Otherwise, God becomes only a transcendent force. God's infinitude is in His Persons, otherwise Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Yahweh, Omniscient have no relevance. God as Persons, knows everything including His Essence; that's being truly omniscient.

I mentioned these aspects of God because there is sometimes a tendency to hide from God behind all sorts of pretentious definitions of Himself or lengthy religious monologues. What is inconvenient is that God "sees"/knows what we do and expects a certain behaviour from us. Being Personal, He can be pleased or not pleased. Sometimes there is the idea that God's judgement and justice can be escaped because God is the energy of love and merciful. In fact, firstly, God is a sovereign Authority and His Mercy must be earned in order to become active. Sin is not allowed and is noticed through God's Personal component.

IoanC said:

True, God's Essence is unknowable to those created by Him, but God is always Personal. Otherwise, God becomes only a transcendent force. God's infinitude is in His Persons, otherwise Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Yahweh, Omniscient have no relevance. God as Persons, knows everything including His Essence; that's being truly omniscient.

I mentioned these aspects of God because there is sometimes a tendency to hide from God behind all sorts of pretentious definitions of Himself or lengthy religious monologues. What is inconvenient is that God "sees"/knows what we do and expects a certain behaviour from us. Being Personal, He can be pleased or not pleased. Sometimes there is the idea that God's judgement and justice can be escaped because God is the energy of love and merciful. In fact, firstly, God is a sovereign Authority and His Mercy must be earned in order to become active.

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God's mercy is not earned. I don't know of any historic Christian confession or tradition that believes otherwise.

Well, ok, but something is wrong in the case of satan. Even though he needs God's mercy, it seems like he doesn't deserve it (can't earn it). While the faithful deserve/earn God's Mercy by default.

IoanC said:

Well, ok, but something is wrong in the case of satan. Even though he needs God's mercy, it seems like he doesn't deserve it (can't earn it). While the faithful deserve/earn God's Mercy by default.

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The traditional Christian answer is that Satan doesn't seek God's mercy.

Jesus' parable of the unprofitable servants is used traditionally by Protestants and Old Catholics to reject the Roman Catholic doctrine of the condignity of merits. I suspect the Orthodox have similar views.

Luke 17:10

True, yet Satan could use God's Mercy, but he is guilty before God who does not tolerate disobedience. So, actually, he first needs to repent in order to receive anything from God.

I believe that when God created a thing, He gave that thing a degree of sovereignty to exist and to interact with all other things in creation. The "rules" of this is what we commonly call "the course of nature."
Also in the OT there is the hard implication that "the land" when burdened by sin and abominations will seek to vomit out the inhabitants. This, I believe, is a natural reaction much like vomiting is. The body when poisoned or ill will seek to vomit out the poison. I do not know the mechanism in the course of nature that causes this reaction. It may be an unexplained aspect God built into the world. This may cause these "things" to appear to be conscious, but I doubt it is conscious in the same way we are conscious.


Leviticus 18:27-28 KJV
27. (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28. That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

Leviticus 18:25 KJV
25. And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Leviticus 20:22 KJV
22. Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.

It could be a part of the nature course of nature such as sowing and sowing. I hesitate to use the word karma... but you get my gist.

Galatians 6
7. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

The land just gets sick of what is happening... again, not a sentience, but a predetermined course of nature that appears to be sentient.

Leviticus 26:43 GNB
43. First, however, the land must be rid of its people, so that it can enjoy its complete rest, and they must pay the full penalty for having rejected my laws and my commands.

As a analyst and systems engineer, I used to play around with AI systems trying to see how we could get them to work. Regardless of how complex and deep your code and data may go, the output will always and only be a refection of the people who designed it and the data they have entered. It appears sentient, but it is not. It is just code and data. Perhaps this is what we are seeing in nature.
Peace

BobRyan said:

If you think that dust gas and rocks will eventually come up with a rabbit, a horse or Einstein given enough mass, time and chance interaction -- the congratulations! You are on the road to rocks-have-the-attribute of consciousness to pass on to what eventually evolves from them.

Click to expand...

God said that the Earth produced living things. I believe Him. You should, too.

BobRyan said:

The Idea That Everything From Spoons to Stones is Conscious is Gaining Academic Credibility

“If you think about consciousness long enough, you either become a panpsychist or you go into administration.”

getpocket.com

" The Idea That Everything From Spoons to Stones is Conscious -- is Gaining Academic Credibility

“If you think about consciousness long enough, you either become a panpsychist or you go into administration.”​

If you think that dust gas and rocks will eventually come up with a rabbit, a horse or Einstein given enough mass, time and chance interaction -- the congratulations! You are on the road to rocks-have-the-attribute of consciousness to pass on to what eventually evolves from them.

OR else you may believe the Bible account of an infinitely wise and powerful God - that creates, organizes, causes things to exist that did not exist before such that our own intelligence is not inherited from rocks, but is created by a far more intelligent being than ourselves.

Pick one.

Click to expand...

I believe exactly what Gen 1 says:

Genesis 1:11 KJV
11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

What brought forth the grass?

Genesis 1:20 KJV
20. And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

What brought forth the sea creatures and air creatures?

Genesis 1:24 KJV
24. And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

What brought forth the living creature of the earth?

God spoke words into the dirt and water of the earth, empowering them with all that was needed to bring forth life. This is His life bringing forth factory. I feel completely comfortable in believing and confessing that God empowered the earth and seas to bring forth life, because that is what this says.

BobRyan said:

God said He made the first human (Adam) directly from the dust of the ground

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"Directly" is your addition to His word to make it more acceptable to you.

and it happened on day 6 of the 7 day creation week where each day is the same as the day in Ex 20 at Sinai,

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That is another addition you made to God's word. He didn't say that, either.

Why not just accept His word as it is, without making any changes?