LGBTQ+ People Take Up Arms as Fears of Right-wing Hate Groups Grow

Ana the Ist · Mar 28, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Because nothing is ever problematic or wrong in conservative Christian communities. It's always "the Other" that is in the wrong.

How is that any different from the left's perspective?

Didn't we both recently post in a thread where you blamed the legacy of white Christians in Uganda's decision to pass a law? You literally engaged in the sort of mental gymnastics required to blame white Christian Europeans for what a bunch of black Africans did.

Your politics don't allow you to blame black Africans....so you blame "the Other".

Congratulations, you're a mirror image of the right.

coffee4u · Mar 28, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
One of the most common examples is:
When people critique the fact that some CEOs are giving themselves massive bonuses while no decent raises are being given to their employees, a common retort is "well, technically that janitor making $12/hour would actually be considered rich in <insert impoverished African country here>"

Only an American would think $12 an hour is good pay. That's teenage wages here.

You do realize the rest of the developed world looks on with some horror and disdain at the US work policies? Your minimum wage is abismel; your lack of maternity and paternity leave horrible, and your no sick pay and your health system? Disgusting. $292.91 for a puffer without insurance? Try $40 here.
Sorry to have to say but you rank last in every category. Even Ethiopia has paid maternity leave as standard if we are talking African countries.
Shocking- is that you all put up with it.
You can have capitalism balanced with social programs. "A fair suck of the sav" as we say down under. (BTW sav is 'sauce bottle' nothing naughty) ^_^

Bradskii · Mar 28, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
I think that kinda shows a bit of a skewed perception with regards to money.

What some of us see as a "few bucks" may not be so inconsequential to some people. For me, I'm not going to go out of my way to get myself into a gun fight over $100...I've got more money in the bank, I can just hit the ATM later after I file a police report. For some folks, that $100 could be the difference in feeding or not feeding their kids for the week.

Plus the guy doing the robbery had a gun himself, meaning there's no way of knowing if he was a "take the money and leave" or "take the money and leave no witnesses"/"loose cannon" types.

While it's true that the majority of retail establishment robberies just involve brandishing, the percentage of robberies that involve actual discharging of the weapon or some other injuring factor to the victim is still large enough that's it's not insignificant.

Per the DOJ stats:
11.8% actually discharge their weapon (some of that could be firing at the floor or ceiling to intimidate the victim and not directly aiming at people)
13.4% injure the victim in some fashion (which may or may not be due to the aforementioned discharge)

So it's far from a guarantee that "if you just comply, they won't hurt you"

It's the seemingy American propensity for taking the law into their own hands. I can only again compare it to an actual scenario in Australia when all that happened was that some people lost a few bucks. The punk deserved a few years in the Big House to rethink his ways. But he didn't deserved to be gunned down.

Bradskii · Mar 28, 2023

Aldebaran said:
But even if that's all that would have happened, would you want to live in a society where criminals can commit armed robberies on a regular basis, confident that they'll succeed because nobody will oppose them?

As opposed to living somewhere where there's a fair chance that a large proportion of people in a restaurant or bar are carrying guns? And if someone robs the place then there's likely to be a shoot out? Well, gee. Let me think about that for a while...

While I'm thinking about that I can consider the fact that people in the US are 57 times more likely to be killed as a result of violent crime. Fifty seven times! https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime.

Tough decision, eh? I'll get back to you when I've given it some thought...

coffee4u · Mar 28, 2023

Bradskii said:
It's the seemingy American propensity for taking the law into their own hands. I can only again compare it to an actual scenario in Australia when all that happened was that some people lost a few bucks. The punk deserved a few years in the Big House to rethink his ways. But he didn't deserved to be gunned down.

It's definitely a cultural thing.
Here most of us are in favour of gun laws, whether we lean right or left. And 'grab a gun' is not the first thing to come to mind to solve an issue. Reminds me of that video of that drunk/high bogan throwing rocks and the tradies were shooting back with a nail gun. The guy had nails hanging out of his arms, but again, at least the dimwit had his life. Worth searching up if you didn't see that footage.

Bradskii · Mar 28, 2023

coffee4u said:
It's definitely a cultural thing.
Here most of us are in favour of gun laws, whether we lean right or left. And 'grab a gun' is not the first thing to come to mind to solve an issue. Reminds me of that video of that drunk/high bogan throwing rocks and the tradies were shooting back with a nail gun. The guy had nails hanging out of his arms, but again, at least the dimwit had his life. Worth searching up if you didn't see that footage.

Classic Australian!

ThatRobGuy · Mar 28, 2023

coffee4u said:
Only an American would think $12 an hour is good pay. That's teenage wages here.

You do realize the rest of the developed world looks on with some horror and disdain at the US work policies? Your minimum wage is abismel; your lack of maternity and paternity leave horrible, and your no sick pay and your health system? Disgusting. $292.91 for a puffer without insurance? Try $40 here.
Sorry to have to say but you rank last in every category. Even Ethiopia has paid maternity leave as standard if we are talking African countries.
Shocking- is that you all put up with it.
You can have capitalism balanced with social programs. "A fair suck of the sav" as we say down under. (BTW sav is 'sauce bottle' nothing naughty)

Hey, I'm not arguing when it comes to certain economic reforms.

I was replying to your post that said:
Any person living in a free western country 'has it made'. In fact our privilege is so great we can moan about the smallest of things on message boards, Tic Toc, YouTube etc. Try moaning about it in North Korea. Try having to walk a mile every day just to have enough water to use then come back and moan how about how bad you have it.

...by highlighting why it's not useful to compare westernized countries to "lowest common denominator" countries. When it comes to domestic conversations, "how the US entities compare to their counterparts" is largely irrelevant when it comes to social issues.

By Middle Eastern standards, Ted Cruz is a feminist...by Scandinavian standards, Joe Biden is a conservative. Those kinds of juxtapositions are inconsequential and, as I said, usually invoked disingenuously as a means of promoting the status quo in order to tell people "you have to eat your poop sandwich and like it"

As far as the US "ranking last in every category"...I assume you're exaggerating a little bit there.

While the US certainly isn't first in every category, we're far from being last in every category.

ThatRobGuy · Mar 28, 2023

Bradskii said:
It's the seemingy American propensity for taking the law into their own hands. I can only again compare it to an actual scenario in Australia when all that happened was that some people lost a few bucks. The punk deserved a few years in the Big House to rethink his ways. But he didn't deserved to be gunned down.

But like I said, with regards to armed robberies, there's no guarantee that the end result is just going to be "losing a few bucks". Nearly 15% of armed robberies end up with victim getting physically hurt.

If the statistic were "in armed robberies, 100% of the victims are unscathed when they comply", then I'd definitely say you had a point.

Sure, you can find anecdotes like the one you provided, but I could just as easily provide this one. (that happened a few decades back at a mall that was 15 miles away from where I lived at the time...the one I used to hang out at when I was in Jr. High)

Parole denied for man who raped, killed Mary Jo Pesho in 1996 in Parma

Shannon Kidd was denied parole Friday in the kidnapping, rape and killing of Mary Jo Pesha in 1996.

www.cleveland.com

She tried to comply, gave them her money, begged for her life multiple times (explaining that she had a special needs child and wanted to live). Basically a "take whatever you want, just don't kill me" situation. After robbing her, they decided that it was too risky to let her go since she had seen one of their faces, so decided to kill her (but not before raping her)

So there's anecdotes that go both ways on this. One doesn't know if they're dealing with a petty thug who just wants some money, or vastly more unstable people like the ones from the story I linked.

Ana the Ist · Mar 28, 2023

Bradskii said:
But he didn't deserved to be gunned down.

Occupational hazard.

If you pick up a gun, and point it in people's faces for a living, then you implicitly accept the possibility of someone doing the same to you and ending your life.

Or you're incredibly stupid.

rambot · Mar 28, 2023

Ana the Ist said:
And they do.

Do they? I thought that businesses are allowed to discriminate against them?

Ana the Ist · Mar 28, 2023

rambot said:
Do they? I thought that businesses are allowed to discriminate against them?

Not really, businesses are allowed to refuse customers for virtually any reason.

A nazi, for example, can go into a Jewish bakery and request a two dozen swastika shaped bagels for Hitler's birthday....and that baker can refuse.

Desk trauma · Mar 28, 2023

Blade said:
But know this any one that "providing firearms skills to queer people so they can protect themselves." you most likely get what you expect …

More Citizens trained how make use of their second amendment rights?

Bradskii · Mar 28, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
But like I said, with regards to armed robberies, there's no guarantee that the end result is just going to be "losing a few bucks". Nearly 15% of armed robberies end up with victim getting physically hurt.

If the statistic were "in armed robberies, 100% of the victims are unscathed when they comply", then I'd definitely say you had a point.

Sure, you can find anecdotes like the one you provided, but I could just as easily provide this one. (that happened a few decades back at a mall that was 15 miles away from where I lived at the time...the one I used to hang out at when I was in Jr. High)

Parole denied for man who raped, killed Mary Jo Pesho in 1996 in Parma

Shannon Kidd was denied parole Friday in the kidnapping, rape and killing of Mary Jo Pesha in 1996.

www.cleveland.com

She tried to comply, gave them her money, begged for her life multiple times (explaining that she had a special needs child and wanted to live). Basically a "take whatever you want, just don't kill me" situation. After robbing her, they decided that it was too risky to let her go since she had seen one of their faces, so decided to kill her (but not before raping her)

So there's anecdotes that go both ways on this. One doesn't know if they're dealing with a petty thug who just wants some money, or vastly more unstable people like the ones from the story I linked.

You're just confirming what I said. It's an American problem. And it'll take generations to solve. If I were you I'd make a start.

coffee4u · Mar 29, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
Hey, I'm not arguing when it comes to certain economic reforms.

I was replying to your post that said:
Any person living in a free western country 'has it made'. In fact our privilege is so great we can moan about the smallest of things on message boards, Tic Toc, YouTube etc. Try moaning about it in North Korea. Try having to walk a mile every day just to have enough water to use then come back and moan how about how bad you have it.

...by highlighting why it's not useful to compare westernized countries to "lowest common denominator" countries. When it comes to domestic conversations, "how the US entities compare to their counterparts" is largely irrelevant when it comes to social issues.

By Middle Eastern standards, Ted Cruz is a feminist...by Scandinavian standards, Joe Biden is a conservative. Those kinds of juxtapositions are inconsequential and, as I said, usually invoked disingenuously as a means of promoting the status quo in order to tell people "you have to eat your poop sandwich and like it"

As far as the US "ranking last in every category"...I assume you're exaggerating a little bit there.

While the US certainly isn't first in every category, we're far from being last in every category.

The Us ranks last in each of those areas I listed and the sad thing is, it doesn't have to. The US is still the richest country on earth.

I hear some Scandinavian countries are back pedaling. The point was we in developed countries have it good. If we can get online and complain then its due to having a government that allows it, access to a computer and probably a comfy chair. We also probably have an AC or heater going and a cup of coffee. We just don't appreciate our privilege-which nobody through thousands of years of human history had, we would rather whine about how oppressed we are. We need to appreciate what we have and deal with actual real oppression. Getting misgendered at the store? Not oppression. Having someone disagree with you? Not oppression. Didn't get that job because you don't have the skill set? Not oppression.

coffee4u · Mar 29, 2023

Bradskii said:
Classic Australian!

So classically Australian. In America those shots fired would have been bullets.

coffee4u · Mar 29, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
So there's anecdotes that go both ways on this. One doesn't know if they're dealing with a petty thug who just wants some money, or vastly more unstable people like the ones from the story I linked.

All the more reason for some sensible gun laws.

Ana the Ist · Mar 29, 2023

coffee4u said:
Only an American would think $12 an hour is good pay. That's teenage wages here.

You do realize the rest of the developed world looks on with some horror and disdain at the US work policies?

Yes...there's no lack of imbeciles who look at us and go woooooo....glad I don't live there because "insert reason" and blah blah blah.

coffee4u said:
Your minimum wage is abismel;

Uh huh.

coffee4u said:
your lack of maternity and paternity leave horrible,

You mean universal maternity leave? My coworkers get like 6 weeks of paternity leave.

coffee4u said:
and your no sick pay and your health system?

I get sick pay. And while I can certainly admit to the shortfalls of the medical system....it seems the right wasn't entirely wrong about the pitfalls of universal healthcare.

'Disturbing': Experts troubled by Canada’s euthanasia laws

TORONTO (AP) — Alan Nichols had a history of depression and other medical issues, but none were life-threatening.

apnews.com

coffee4u said:
Disgusting. $292.91 for a puffer without insurance? Try $40 here.

I have insurance...no idea what a puffer is.

coffee4u said:
Sorry to have to say but you rank last in every category.

Every category?

coffee4u said:
Even Ethiopia has paid maternity leave as standard if we are talking African countries.

I'm for people moving to Ethiopia if they want.

coffee4u said:
Shocking- is that you all put up with it.
You can have capitalism balanced with social programs. "A fair suck of the sav" as we say down under. (BTW sav is 'sauce bottle' nothing naughty)

You can also be herded like sheep into prisons, deprived of rights, dignity, humanity...something our government does not dare do.

Inside Australia’s Covid internment camp

Hayley Hodgson, 26, moved to Darwin from Melbourne to escape the never-ending lockdowns — only to find herself locked up in a Covid Internment Camp without even having the virus. [...]Read More...

unherd.com

That looks terrifying to us because frankly, even if you think the reasons were good last time....there's absolutely no recourse should you think the reasons are bad next time. You're helpless.

Ana the Ist · Mar 29, 2023

coffee4u said:
Getting misgendered at the store? Not oppression.

Technically, if gender is a social construct....you can't misgender anyone.

Anyone's conception of the construct is equally valid as anyone else's. It's socially constructed. I suspect what they really mean is "subjective construct" which again...doesn't achieve what they want.

Aldebaran · Mar 31, 2023

Bradskii said:
As opposed to living somewhere where there's a fair chance that a large proportion of people in a restaurant or bar are carrying guns? And if someone robs the place then there's likely to be a shoot out? Well, gee. Let me think about that for a while...

While I'm thinking about that I can consider the fact that people in the US are 57 times more likely to be killed as a result of violent crime. Fifty seven times! https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime.

Tough decision, eh? I'll get back to you when I've given it some thought...

Yeah, and just imagine what happens when citizens aren't even allowed the ability to resist becoming a victim of violent crime because the criminals still have guns after the law-abiding surrender theirs.
Don't think I didn't notice how you completely avoided answering about having to fear being the victim of a criminal who knows that they can get away with whatever they do.

Bradskii · Apr 1, 2023

Aldebaran said:
Yeah, and just imagine what happens when citizens aren't even allowed the ability to resist becoming a victim of violent crime because the criminals still have guns after the law-abiding surrender theirs.
Don't think I didn't notice how you completely avoided answering about having to fear being the victim of a criminal who knows that they can get away with whatever they do.

Did someone suggest all guns should be taken away? I must have missed that. As to the fear of being a victim of gun violence in Australia, I am as worried about that about as much as I am of being mauled by a bear. That's why I posted those figures. To show you that people in Australia (and very many other parts of the civilised world) don't feel the need to strap on a weapon every time they go to the supermarket.

Criminals down here do have guns. But they mostly use them to shoot each other. Which worries me not in the slightest. In fact, I think it should be encouraged.

LGBTQ+ People Take Up Arms as Fears of Right-wing Hate Groups Grow

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